Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[Culaio]

This change will hit HARD people who solo endless missions because of bad internet connection like me, who either get disconnected or get whole team disconnected. For me its already hard to survive above 35 min even though I use strongest possible weapons that are modded in best possible way.

simply put having only one corrosive projection is not enough, I go through ammo VERY fast after 35 minutes in.

[CapedBaldy]

Let me remind you of this. It has been a year since DE has inadvertently made nine mods useless, and those mods are still useless today.

I'm curious, which nine are those? Status and physical damage mods?

[izzatuw]

People rumor mongering and getting preemptively butt hurt over things they have yet no real clue about, lets me lose faith in gaming communities.

What 99% seems to have overlooked or overheard is the fact that it was also said, clip size and ammo reserve will be looked at and probably enemy scaling as well.

Save your doom mongering and ship tosting for the time the changes go live, at least then your wgining might make sense.

Edit:

Hot damn must have typed it with my feet....

I'm very wary when it comes to DE and balancing, especially on such a high scale... I mean look at syndicate weapons, the choices and buffs were overall just weird...

Look at melee 2.0... Heavy weapons got a huge hit and they only bothered rebalancing them months after. So the chances of DE screwing up a weapon or two is pretty high.

[Baruti]

I just don't understand what the point of this nerf is? There's always going to be optimal ways to mod ALWAYS, they need to get over it.

 

Even if they ruin split chamber (which all they'll actually end up doing is making it selectively viable on certain weapons which are going to be the new go to's in this patch and hurt variety) And then they manage to balance EVERYTHING, around the change they made, which is going to be a head spinning amount of work where we end up in the exact same place as before then what got accomplished? Why did we go through all this make everyone upset, and put the game in the exact same place? I feel like all the work and potential to botch everything just isn't worth it and there's better ways  to increase diversity that would make people happy instead of enraged.

 

Also I think why we keep ending up in this place is that most of the Devs at DE do not actually play their own game (or at least not legitimately) They play a couple rounds of exterminate or mobile defense and then they tell us I never have ammo problems, which is just a laughable statement to anyone who's ever been past 30 minutes on any endless game mode with something like soma or grakata (and who doesn't have 4 CP)

 

They really need to step back and think about what they're doing, I don't know why everything with DE always has to be so apocalyptic and soul crushing they need to focus on making positive changes rather than ripping things out of peoples hands.

[MJ12]

I'm curious, which nine are those? Status and physical damage mods?

 

The three rifle and shotgun physical damage mods, and the pistol/rifle/melee/shotgun pure status mods. The melee physical damage mods are reasonably okay (they're cheap to put in and most melee weapons are very heavily biased towards one damage type), and the +60% pistol ones are... I wouldn't say great but at least there are some weapons where you might put them in because they're not totally useless.

 

So actually, 10.

[DestroyerOmega]

Finally, a person with sense.

[OliverSniper]

I would fix multishoot in a diferent way let's nerf the adition shoot to deal 50% of the dmg in my eyes it would bee balanced that way

[ClockworkTheGreat]

There is absolutely no way these people play their own game. The jump in damage of Hek from 5000 to almost 14000 when you slap on multishot should be enough of a clue as to how mandatory this mod is. There is no way they cannot just see how this just throws every weapon that's not a monster of ammo economy like the Opticor into the garbage. 

[Feallike]

You guys get if they nerf are damage they will have to nerf enemies as well and rework mods.

 

THIS IS THE PERFECT OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO FORCE DE TO FIX MODS AND ENEMIES!

 

 

They can't run away from it, after the change every player on the forums will be hounding them to rework mods and enemies. They will have to rework them they won't be able to throw out petty changes!

 

 

We are in a situation where either DE has a idea to fix mods and enemies, or we will MAKE them have a idea about fixing them.

[low1991]

I'm very wary when it comes to DE and balancing, especially on such a high scale... I mean look at syndicate weapons, the choices and buffs were overall just weird...

Look at melee 2.0... Heavy weapons got a huge hit and they only bothered rebalancing them months after. So the chances of DE screwing up a weapon or two is pretty high.

DE pretty much screwed up every weapon that requires multi shot to be viable. (Primary,Secondary)

The soon-to-be-Melee? nope. melee does not have any magazine to goes with it.

Feels like how stuff is done here, nerf existing to introduce new stuffs.

[Feallike]

I just don't understand what the point of this nerf is? There's always going to be optimal ways to mod ALWAYS, they need to get over it.

 

Even if they ruin split chamber (which all they'll actually end up doing is making it selectively viable on certain weapons which are going to be the new go to's in this patch and hurt variety) And then they manage to balance EVERYTHING, around the change they made, which is going to be a head spinning amount of work where we end up in the exact same place as before then what got accomplished? Why did we go through all this make everyone upset, and put the game in the exact same place? I feel like all the work and potential to botch everything just isn't worth it and there's better ways  to increase diversity that would make people happy instead of enraged.

 

Also I think why we keep ending up in this place is that most of the Devs at DE do not actually play their own game (or at least not legitimately) They play a couple rounds of exterminate or mobile defense and then they tell us I never have ammo problems, which is just a laughable statement to anyone who's ever been past 30 minutes on any endless game mode with something like soma or grakata (and who doesn't have 4 CP)

 

They really need to step back and think about what they're doing, I don't know why everything with DE always has to be so apocalyptic and soul crushing they need to focus on making positive changes rather than ripping things out of peoples hands.

 

While I agree the change terrifies me because my weapons will be hit hard since I use mostly ammo ineffecient weapons..... They did state they will be reworking ammo and enemy scaling. So hopefully they will make ammo drops increase ammo by % of max clip, and enemies hopefully will get health nerfs.

 

 

I think the plan is to make Nukes more viable to kill a room then spamming a weapon. They want abilities like Ember's Fire ball to be a mega damage shot instead of us just relying on a bow. I think that is their plan. They want to rework our damage so that frame damage seems extremely powerful in comparison. Though I do think they will nerf enemy damage and health to compensate for that.

[LordChronos]

Ok DE I quit...

Until the next prime access...

[Culaio]

I would fix multishoot in a diferent way let's nerf the adition shoot to deal 50% of the dmg in my eyes it would bee balanced that way

 

The thing is that some weapons NEED multishot as powerful as it is now, this shows that all weapons should have increased damage by how much mods like serration or multishot mods give right now.

[Jeetza]

I would 100% just be done with Warframe if multi shot was nerfed. I'd have to redo everything (like you mentioned) and I couldn't be bothered. That and the fact Fallout 4 is coming soon. I see a lot of players leaving Warframe if they nerf multi shot, mostly because Warframe really needs to compete with all the games coming out soon and nerfing multi shot would just be a reason for players to quit.

[low1991]

feels relevance, off-topic: to me, players are suppose to be OP in PVE

nerf multi shot = reduce OP in PVE.

Edited September 5, 2015 by low1991

[Crimson_Hime]

I guess DE didn't think of secondaries. They have 180% multishot. So i guess  rip already bad ammo economy having synoid gammacor and aksomati.

 

Does DE even play their own game. Just keep the old multishot or rework the whole damage system again. Enemy scaling is bad and ammo economy is already an  issue on many weapons. 

 

This year of quality is more like year of nerfing all the stuff you like. Also status builds on weapons would go down the drain with this purposed change and ammo mutation would become mandatory on most weapons that have semi decent and poor ammo economy. It would just make mutation forced on most weapons and cause carrier use increase. 

[MaverickZero]

Would have been infinity better if polarized slots can be changed freely. 9 updates in and the forma compensation issue exists which makes reworks and changes hard to swallow. We're accumulating so many bad designs over those 3 years with examples ranging from exclusive gear(somewhat novel but influencing) to outdated chat and trading infrastructure(very important and constantly lacking). Building Warframe is only getting harder.

 

No forma compensation when the update hits that's for sure. Sorry OP.

[EmptyDevil]

These kind of threads are basically a meme now.

 

[insert change/tweak/fix/nerf] will probably be what finally kills Warframe for me.

 

A large majority of people are completely overlooking the fact that DE said they will be looking at ammo pools to make sure the change isn't detrimental to weapons. 

 

Also, how would this change make multi-shot a fire rate mod? There is a very distinct difference between multi-shot and fire rate.

 

Multi-shot

 

More than 1 bullet coming out at the same time. 1 pull of the trigger producing 2 bullets simultaneously.

 

Keyword is simultaneous.

 

Fire rate

 

Frequency of bullets leaving the barrel consecutively.

 

Keyword is consecutively.

[FollowTheFaceless]

To nerf multishot - first need to buff ammo problem. For example: make energy weapons self replenish its ammo and physical ammo drops be more variable, like are getting much more ammo from containers.

 

 

I guess DE didn't think of secondaries. They have 180% multishot. So i guess  rip already bad ammo economy having synoid gammacor and aksomati.

 

Does DE even play their own game. Just keep the old multishot or rework the whole damage system again. Enemy scaling is bad and ammo economy is already an  issue on many weapons. 

 

This year of quality is more like year of nerfing all the stuff you like. Also status builds on weapons would go down the drain with this purposed change and ammo mutation would become mandatory on most weapons that have semi decent and poor ammo economy. It would just make mutation forced on most weapons and cause carrier use increase. 

 

 

Carrier will be nerfed too to make it balanced useless like all other sentinels :P

Edited September 5, 2015 by FollowTheFaceless

[Slifar]

For a TL;DR version, read the bolded, numbered points below. Though, you DO miss a bit of the reasoning behind it then, so fair warning! 

 

Look, guys, I understand that a lot of you are concerned with your standard weapon loadouts getting changed in the near future, but all of this freakout is both unnecessary and more than a little hypocritical. After all, as they said, the community at large was complaining about how mandatory mods like this were! Isn't it a bit silly to complain and yell once they try to fix that for you?

But enough of that. At the end of the day, the change is one that is simply necessary simply from a game design point of view, and honestly isn't really that threatening to the state of your gun's balance at all. 

 

As many will point out, Multishot, like Serration or Hornet Strike, is completely mandatory to get the most damage out of your gun. It effectively, in the case of rifles, increases your damage by 90% AFTER other mods are taken into consideration, before we even speak about criticals and status chances. This is the single largest potential boost you can get from a mod in the game, and it comes with no real drawbacks whatsoever. Thus, you effectively lose a modslot. But that's no surprise, right? We all already knew that.

 

Now, the tricky part with all of this is the fact that in its current iteration, multishot is impossible to balance well. Lowering the numbers on it just a little would not reduce its overall impact, due to the fact that Multishot still scales with every other mod you put into your gun at a level higher than literally every other mod in the game. By the time the numbers ARE lowered enough to weaken it sufficiently, it immediately becomes worthless to use in most cases, ESPECIALLY on slower firing guns. While it is true that on paper even a 30% chance would be a pretty nice hike in your long-term damage, the effect itself becomes unpredictable, and overall not very useful! Keep in mind that a 50% multishot does not guarantee that five out of the ten enemies in front of you will be hit by two bullets instead of one. (This is known as the Gambler's Fallacy. I suggest you look it up, it's pretty interesting!)

 

So where does that leave us? Well, in order to no longer be either mandatory or completely useless, the function of Multishot has to be radically changed. In this case, DE has decided to simply do what it had always planned on in the first place: Making Multishot consume ammo, that long-coming bugfix those of us who played back at the start knew was coming at some point. 

 

This is probably the best solution. If one actually pays attention to the stream, DE has said that they're going to be re-tuning ALL of the applicable weapons to not be entirely destroyed by the choice of not taking multishot. While it IS true that they may not raise the power level of the guns up to EXACTLY where they are now (They stated that they're not happy with how guns completely overshadow most powers end-game), any overall decrease to the damage will ultimately be one that would come regardless from the change, as DE has judged it necessary to help even out the power differentials between weapons and warframes. 

 

What does this ultimately mean, though? Well, it means the following:

 

1: The multishot damage is being "internalized" into your weapon, so that the mod is not necessary to get its current bonuses outside of certain interactions with having multiple projectiles. 

 

2: Any damage that that you DO ultimately end up losing is effectively a nerf to weapons as a whole, and would have come regardless of the change to multishot. The change to multishot is simply providing a very convenient time for them to re-balance some damage numbers, allowing them to take out two birds with one stone. Multishot is a MAJOR factor in the huge power differential between warframes, primary, secondary, and melee weapons. While this change may be rough in the short term, it will ultimately make it MUCH easier to balance the game as a whole by making it easier to bring everything as a whole to a similar power level, and then adjust accordingly. After all, a +100% damage mod does a LOT more for a secondary weapon, with its 180% multishot, than it does for a primary with its 90% multishot, but balancing around that would make secondary weapons inferior to primaries in every way when multishot is not considered. And since secondary weapons need TWO mods to get their max multishot...

 

3: Multishot is effectively moving from being an overall damage increase to being a mod that shifts your damage from sustained to burst. Effectively, MultiShot will cause you to empty your clip significantly faster into an enemy, with the tradeoff being that you have to reload much more frequently. It will function as a "Super" fire-rate mod, increasing the rate at which you effectively fire in proportion to the actual fire rate of your weapon. This will also make its effect scale very well with other fire rate mods, or itself in the case of Lethal Torrent. While MultiShot may still increase your overall DPS, it now comes with the rather fair tradeoff of increasing the amount of downtime you have from reloading, and lowering your ammo efficiency a bit by potentially causing you to fire more bullets than you needed to. 

 

There are probably even more reasons than this, but... Well, this is already longer than I intended it to be, hehe. While it is understandable that some of you are upset that builds may be changing, if you're at the point where you have a ton of forma'd weapons, then you're honestly most likely already to the point where formaing and ranking things is pretty trivial to do anyways. And if you aren't... Well, I suspect such a major change to how things are built will likely result in some form of compensation from DE, similar to when Steel Charge was changed. 

[low1991]

To me: the problem is, another useless & unneeded change which remove Damage per ammo efficiency.

Another 90% proc on +100% RoF is useless. srsly.

[peekitea]

I do not know why you spend time in telling people they shouldn't complain. In fact, I find it funny. Make ten more threads. Please.

[CRCGamer]

Only thing being... DE doesn't have a good track record of doing such sweeping changes cleanly. Like at all.

 

Blocking on most melee is currently a bad joke courtesy of Parkour 2.0 and channel blocking is stupidly overpriced.

There are a notable number of weapons that got dumpstered with Damage 2.0 that are *still* in that state.

 

And with how we know our damage scaling against enemy stat inflation works I'd be very suprised if even *half* our currently available weapons come out of this intact. All hail the coming age of Latron Prime, Opticor, Lex Prime, etc.

[Husla]

Why can't all the cool kids play the game without using it and the super-duper-uncool kids play with it?

 

What happened to choices? by all means, if you think multishot is a problem, don't use it but don't let other people lose out on their enjoyment because you're not enjoying it.

 

 

DE always give this bs reason "its a bug that's been around for ages", that they should've fixed a long time ago. It's complete nonsense. You will give them ideas they will use that to ruin what you imagined to something far worse. DE are always 2 steps behind.

[ClockworkTheGreat]

 

1: The multishot damage is being "internalized" into your weapon, so that the mod is not necessary to get its current bonuses outside of certain interactions with having multiple projectiles. 

 

 

Where did you even hear this? Because this is the BEST case scenario, and should be what the community moderators or anyone who caught this should be saying right now if they want to forums to stop burning with the multishot threads. In every thread so far, no one has mentioned this at all. 

 

I don't even think this was even in the stream.

Edited September 5, 2015 by ClockworkTheGreat