Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[ndantony]

What really pisses me off is that they used the excuse of "oh it not using ammo is a bug".

 

That is a piss poor excuse, especially for the amount of time it has been out.

Agree. They have used it on Excal... and it seems to work. But I'm getting quite sick now with this kind of reasoning.

 

It's nothing more than just simply manipulate your thinking, boosting the argument on the other side and favoring the change.  

[LunchBoxKilla]

I just want to know why?

 

Why am I the one of many that suffer because a hand full of forum warriors and "Purest" whpo non stop whine about things like "Get rid of draco" "Multi shot is a too needed mod" "X is bad" "Y is good!"?

 

Every time i play Warframe some one tells me that my gun is op needs to be nerfed or this frame needs to be nerfed, or that needs to be nerfed. I like other High mastry rank players put time, effort and work into cramming formas into are weapons, our frames and so on and then when we get the top of the line tuned weapons this garbage just happens, 

 

Imagine you spent weeks grinding and grinding for all the mods all the formas and all the stuff to make X gun then comes along

 

 

Then BOOM all that hard work all your hard grind... All that effort gone because Babby warframe player doesn't like one mod.

 

 

Its going to be a cycle. Some of the high end end game players are gonna pick up the pieces rebuild then do it all over again and guess what.

 

Baby WF player gets upset because mod Z is the new hotness and its needed for all end game runs now so it needs to be removed because its needed for endgame.

 

 

I'm mad... Very mad right now and I just want to know why? Why do I have to suffer this because YOU don't like a mod? Why can't YOU try to break the system your self and try to go around it?

 

Or better yet Let me know when YOU get a build tuned after this and I'll sit on the forums all day moaning about it till it gets changed so you can understand the time and effort I, and others lost on our builds.

Edited September 5, 2015 by LunchBoxKilla

[3thereal]

Step 1: Fix ENEMY scaling

 

Step 2: Fix Weapon balance

 

Step 3: ?????

 

Step 4: Fix Multishot mods

 

Step 5: Profit.

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

Bye you wont be missed. 

 

On topic: Use ammo mutation - problem solved. Im already using it on almost all weapons and STILL deal damage especially for guns like amprex or soma hell even the synoid gammacor im using the ammo mutation. This is an idea they put out it will get tweaked yada yada yada. Stop freaking out already beside they will give ammo hungry weapons some sort of buff as they mentioned so PLEASE for the love of god.

 

Calm down take a chill pill and wait for the actual update as im pretty sure ppl are just overly exaggerating as usual.

You people keep saying "oh use ammo mutation". 

 

Guess what? WE STILL LOSE DAMAGE.

 

That ammo mutation mod replaces a damage mod!

[woah_dude]

i am mr 20 with almost every single decent or semi-decent gun formaed to the max (with obligatory split chamber, barrel diffusion/lethal torrent polarities). Thats a S#&$ ton of forma i bought on the market, spent insane amount of time leveling this S#&$, only to see the need to reforma 150-200 more times, because DE felt like they don't like multishot? I have a "small" problem with that bro.

 

And ofc now unless i would install mandatory "new flavour of the day" (be it ammo mutation, corrupted mod or waever else Baro will bring), my weapons would underperform, even though i pushed them to the limit already and releveled them over and over and over again. 

 

Recent trend from DE is - nerf something, without giving any compensation it seems, synoid users got jack S#&$, Hydroid is at the bottom of the sea playing hide and seek with Mag, mesa and Saryn are sure to follow suit, Excalibur and his blade was fun for like 2-3 weeks and then nerfed and nerfed again. 

 

How long did it took DE to change Shotguns? Now we have Snipers somewhere in half a year (hopefully) together with a lot of other announced stuff, exactly where DE is going to get those manhours and resources  required to rebalance every weapon that utilized multishot? 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Agree. They have used it on Excal... and it seems to work. But I'm getting quite sick now with this kind of reasoning.

 

It's nothing more than just simply manipulate your thinking, boosting the argument on the other side and favoring the change.  

 

It only worked in Excal's case because DE almost immediately said "okay, we're reworking Excal and this is just a stopgap measure."

 

This... If DE is really intending to tackle the core issue - enemy scaling - they need to say that.

[(XBOX)AyersyBears]

Then it's a good thing there are two sides to this. Of course you should expect nothing different, that's life. Some people like oranges, others think it's about the nastiest food there is. If that happened I would expect more ranting. But they do make changes they do not really tell us about until after, so I would not really put it passed them. A lot of that happens in hotfixes. The point I am getting across is there is no need to complain about people complaining about this. I personally spend money on this game. I spend my time. People actually pay for things in this game because they want to save time, and that money results in people funding money in this game called Warframe. That money goes to the devs who work on this game and decide what and what does not happen. The fact that they do have a dev stream invokes discussion among the player base, which is why they probably do it. They want us to know exactly what it is we are getting into. Which leads to threads like this. Who cares if people are upset. Really, who cares. As far as you know, when it is all said and done, after the nerf, the same people who spent money on this game are going to be gone a few days after, and you will have your happy community of like minded individuals who think that DE can do no wrong in the development in the game. Forbid that anyone mentions at any time about if they dislike something you do, because we must stay positive all the time, even when it is our money being put into this game. Our time. Our resources. I do not think DE is funded by anyone else in the long run. They don't have any other job (that I know of) other than making video games.

 

Again, jumping to conclusions. I did not, at any point, say I agree with what DE are doing. I have said, that I think it is daft for people to develop an opinion on something they have little or no knowledge of. We have not been given all the information on the changes DE are planning to implement. You seem to think that I have developed an opinion on the upcoming change, when I haven't. You compare it to Oranges, and people liking or not liking them. How can I like or not like an orange, if I have never tried one?

 

I'm going to leave this discussion here, because you don't seem to understand my point of view on this.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Did you miss the part where they said they were going to do a lot of rebalancing so the multishot nerf doesn't break the game on purpose or did the knee jerk reaction prevent you from hearing it against your will?

 

They said they'd change some guns.

 

The problem is that with the way the game is set up right now, you need to change all guns, as well as enemy scaling. You literally can't meganerf player DPS like this without fixing enemy health, armor, and DPS values.

 

And possibly RNG because half the reason players go so late in endless missions is to compensate for RNG by double or triple dipping on rewards to beat those 0.5% chance ultrarare prime parts.

[peekitea]

Again, jumping to conclusions. I did not, at any point, say I agree with what DE are doing. I have said, that I think it is daft for people to develop an opinion on something they have little or no knowledge of. We have not been given all the information on the changes DE are planning to implement. You seem to think that I have developed an opinion on the upcoming change, when I haven't. You compare it to Oranges, and people liking or not liking them. How can I like or not like an orange, if I have never tried one?

 

I'm going to leave this discussion here, because you don't seem to understand my point of view on this.

 

Glad you enjoyed the ride.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The change is welcome...how do bullet suddenly do kagebunshin anyway?...people complain and will continue to complain...

 

It's called duplex ammo. It's a real thing that exists. Not that it matters considering we have mods that turn bullets into arrows. This "it makes sense!" argument is farcial in context of a game such as this.

 

 

 

they said the boom weapon is now useless when DE change the ammo capacity from like hundred to what it is today, I don't see what the big deal is during that particular change and still feel the same for this one as well..

 

I certainly see a lot less explosive weapons these days after that nerf. But smart people told them it wouldn't matter because explosives are less dependent on elements for their value so they could easily find a way to slot in a rank 0 ammo mutation, and lo an behold they were right.

 

Those same smart people are doing the theorycrafting here and coming to the conclusion that this is a terrible change that doesn't achieve the stated goal.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[notLura]

I personally am not against the multishot rework, I am against the fact that it seems the only rework.

I mean, sure DE said they are working on a rebalance of all the weapons, but it's not enough.
A rebalance of the enemies and their scaling it's also mandatory, like many others have said.

But I think we need a full rework of the whole mod ecosystem with something like the exilus slot and only 4 mod spaces: this will mean that every space could accept only a set of mods, for example one offensive (to upgrade the damage or fire rate or penetration), one for the ammo, one for utility and one to add other functions (like syndicate mods, or weapon-specific mods like thunderbolt).

I believe this to be the only solution to mandatory mods and the stagnation of builds.
 

PS. And remove critical damage: it's only an artificial mechanic, just delete it and improve the base damage of critical weapons.

Edited September 5, 2015 by notLura

[(PSN)TheYetiMan22]

DE don't realise it's not the community as a whole, it's a few vocal minority. The community as a whole is complaining now because they didn't ask for this change.

[Shiichibukai]

You people keep saying "oh use ammo mutation". 

 

Guess what? WE STILL LOSE DAMAGE.

 

That ammo mutation mod replaces a damage mod!

it replaces 1 mod  - big effin deal.

 

My amprex runs like this - serration,heavy cal,split chamber,point strike,vital sense,2 element mods and ammo mutation. Enough dont need more (could have forgotten something dont have it in my mind) that is the usual loadout i go with and it does good enough for 40-60 minutes of w.e mission. 

[Vaxillian]

With all the rebalancing that will come to the general population of the ammo economy, I personally think everything will be fine. Especially since the broken ammo econ will finally get looked at.

 

BUT, A lot of people are making pre-judgemental guesses on something they know nothing about because it has yet to happen.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Vaxillian

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

I do not know why you spend time in telling people they shouldn't complain. In fact, I find it funny. Make ten more threads. Please.

Dat

[Cpl_Facehugger]

These kind of threads are basically a meme now.

 

[insert change/tweak/fix/nerf] will probably be what finally kills Warframe for me.

 

A large majority of people are completely overlooking the fact that DE said they will be looking at ammo pools to make sure the change isn't detrimental to weapons. 

 

If they change ammo pools enough to matter (1000% ammo pool buff and maybe 200% magazine buff?), then this change is kind of pointless, because people will still use multishot for the extra damage it provides. It is thus still "essential."

 

If they don't change ammo pools enough to compensate for this change, then it's still essential unless they also fix enemy scaling, it's just on top of needing split chamber to retain DPS, we now need to fit ammo mutation into our builds.

 

I use braton prime a lot because it's sexy and I love seeing enemies cut apart when I shoot them. I fit in ammo mutation because that 375 ammo is a killer. It keeps me reasonably well topped off. With this proposed change, my braton's ammo consumption is going to roughly double with my present build. My ammo mutation won't be able to keep up. Suddenly, I have to stop using a gun I really enjoy because I don't have the bullets to fire it.

 

Or I remove multishot, thereby double-crippling my gun. Its DPS is only endgame viable if you squint at it right now with it compensating via excellent status chance, but me removing multishot both cripples the DPS *and* cripples the status chances.

 

 

 

Also, how would this change make multi-shot a fire rate mod? There is a very distinct difference between multi-shot and fire rate.

 

Multi-shot

 

More than 1 bullet coming out at the same time. 1 pull of the trigger producing 2 bullets simultaneously.

 

Keyword is simultaneous.

 

Fire rate

 

Frequency of bullets leaving the barrel consecutively.

 

Keyword is consecutively.

 

I ask you this: What is the difference in effect between shooting 60 bullets per minute because your ROF is 1 round/sec and shooting 60 bullets per minute because your ROF is 1 round/2 sec but for every other round on average, two bullets come out of the chamber because magic?

 

There's no actual difference in effect. The same number of bullets go out in any timeframe longer than one trigger pull.

 

My amprex runs like this - serration,heavy cal,split chamber,point strike,vital sense,2 element mods and ammo mutation. Enough dont need more (could have forgotten something dont have it in my mind) that is the usual loadout i go with and it does good enough for 40-60 minutes of w.e mission.

 

It's funny you should mention Amprex. Do you think your ammo mutation will keep up with an amprex that eats bullets twice as fast?

Edited September 5, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[EmptyDevil]

-snip-

 

Go read my replies to the other guy that was speaking on the same things. Can't be bothered to retype or quote them.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Go read my replies to the other guy that was speaking on the same things. Can't be bothered to retype or quote them.

 

I did. What you said is basically sophistry, save the recoil argument which is fair but which doesn't really change the fact that this change converts multishot into a glorified rate of fire mod in effect. Nothing you've said changes the fact that this nerf is ill-conceived garbage that's counterproductive for the stated goal.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[DxAdder]

All this for what ?

 

It's going to happen, ACCEPT IT. 

 

Endless missions will be a think of the past unless you can melee end game mobs or spend a ton of resources in Ammo refills.

 

You all know this day was coming at some point but now it's over. 

[EmptyDevil]

I did. What you said is basically sophistry, save the recoil argument which is fair but which doesn't really change the fact that this change converts multishot into a glorified rate of fire mod in effect. Nothing you've said changes the fact that this nerf is ill-conceived garbage that's counterproductive for the stated goal.

 

Yeah, no. Nothing i said is sophistry and what would i have to gain from that anyway? If you really did read ALL of my replies and understood the point, you'd see why i don't think this change will be as harmful as people are making it out to be. 

 

People are just whining because they don't want any kind of drawbacks whatsoever. The only way players accept drawbacks on a mod is if the negative is redundant or benefits them in some way.

[aoguro]

there is a mass of threads of the same theme here now, can somebody move them all together in one ... i have a headache XD

[SanicManic]

Lol I don't care if the mod gets nerf or not because I use melee a lot, but the fact that they said it was a "bug" for 2 years.....24months over a simple mod that everyone had no problems with in about 17,530 hours. Until finally some dude makes a thread about getting it nerfed a few weeks back. I'm like, bruh.

[Endgame77]

All this for what ?

 

It's going to happen, ACCEPT IT. 

 

Endless missions will be a think of the past unless you can melee end game mobs or spend a ton of resources in Ammo refills.

 

You all know this day was coming at some point but now it's over. 

 

Sorry, not everyone has no backbone and just blindly accepts things. If this change ticks me off too much I'll just quit the game, as will many people. Losing income will show DE how well thought out their change is.

[-Genesis-]

Gamers of olden times actually wait until they experience the change itself before they even criticize. Imagine the very first online games ever created, they had no template to follow to have great updates, yet gamers of that time do not complain, simply because they don't focus much on what the game has become, but rather what the gamer himself has become. What they learned from the game and how they improved from that game. In the end you're gonna stop playng warframe, either you want to play a new game, warframe shutsdown  or something else. Its not really how DE changed multishot that will matter once you transfer to a new game, but its what you have become as a gamer. Perhaps you're a better FPS gamer now, a better theorist in builds, a better team player, etc. Yes, that multishot change can be for worse and it will affect you as you're playing warframe, but really? Your first concern is a virtual coded item will change into something we don't even know, bec. we have no idea of its entire scope because its NOT yet released? It is sad to see how the gaming world turned into.

 

[Endgame77]

Gamers of olden times actually wait until they experience the change itself before they even criticize. Imagine the very first online games ever created, they had no template to follow to have great updates, yet gamers of that time do not complain, simply because they don't focus much on what the game has become, but rather what the gamer himself has become. What they learned from the game and how they improved from that game. In the end you're gonna stop playng warframe, either you want to play a new game, warframe shutsdown  or something else. Its not really how DE changed multishot that will matter once you transfer to a new game, but its what you have become as a gamer. Perhaps you're a better FPS gamer now, a better theorist in builds, a better team player, etc. Yes, that multishot change can be for worse and it will affect you as you're playing warframe, but really? Your first concern is a virtual coded item will change into something we don't even know, bec. we have no idea of its entire scope because its NOT yet released? It is sad to see how the gaming world turned into.

 

 

I've been gaming since the 70s, I'm guessing that's a heck of a lot longer than you have. I heard nothing but complaining from people playing Quake 1 online. Negative changes drive players away from games. That has always happened and will keep happening. You kill someones fun and you are essentially killing the game for them.

 

You say imagine the very 1st online games created. I played them all at release....

Edited September 5, 2015 by Endgame77