Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[HalfDarkShadow]

People rumor mongering and getting preemptively butt hurt over things they have yet no real clue about, lets me lose faith in gaming communities.

What 99% seems to have overlooked or overheard is the fact that it was also said, clip size and ammo reserve will be looked at and probably enemy scaling as well.  

 

Save your doom mongering and ship tosting for the time the changes go live, at least then your wgining might make sense.

 

Edit:

Hot damn must have typed it with my feet....

 

Well to be fair, only a very small part of the Warframe community uses the forums. Well every game really that has a forum. Not to say the ones who use the forums are discredited, absolutely not. Thanks to the small fraction, we've gotten some cool additions like weapon skins, the inspired Zephyr Warframe, and a handful of awesome enemy designs like the Juggernaut (wont lie, a bit creepy with the yells, when you are soloing on Eris or something hahah~).

 

But anyways, back to what you were saying, I know what you're talking about, and it is a generalization to at least some extent, which is all well and good, and also I get why with many players hoping on here regarding this time around the spitballing-talks for Multishot (to clarify, it is subject to drastically change), and they're general negativity. They're all (well, most I'd say) just worried about how this might change the game they love to play, understandably so.

As well as how we really don't know how any of it is going to work (hence why they're just in the talks about it, and probably they're still trying to figure out how this will all work out to balance the game out without severely gimping many weapons, and to keep the unique Warframe abilities as well in-par with many other weapons available).

 

Most people mean well, despite their frustration, but I'd say try not to lump everyone together or the few (few as in the hundreds on here) vocal ones; and even then, they do have some merit. Even if it's just speculative at this point-in-time.

 

To them, I'd say (as Glen specifically was explaining it in the devstream), try not to get your panties' all in a bunch right now, not until we have some official word on how these changes will affect the game specifically, and what exactly is being changed and what is being balanced, if the changes happen.

 

Just a food-for-thought, so take it as you will (:

Edited September 5, 2015 by HalfDarkShadow

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Yeah, no. Nothing i said is sophistry and what would i have to gain from that anyway? If you really did read ALL of my replies and understood the point, you'd see why i don't think this change will be as harmful as people are making it out to be. 

 

People are just whining because they don't want any kind of drawbacks whatsoever. The only way players accept drawbacks on a mod is if the negative is redundant or benefits them in some way.

 

What I see is you not understanding anything about how this situation works or affects endgame builds. I then see you dismissing all counterarguments against you with "I already addressed it, go back and read" when you manifestly have not. I see you bringing up pseudo-reasonable points that fall apart on more than a cursory glance.

Hence sophistry.

 

Now I see you whining about people who're upset at this change, even though there's very legitimate reasons to be upset.

 

Here, let me help: Imagine your favorite weapon. Now imagine its damage output is nerfed such that you can't kill enemies in your favorite content. Sounds fun, right? Oh, but wait, you can still get that level of damage output at the cost of half your ammo.

 

Edited September 5, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[DxAdder]

Sorry, not everyone has no backbone and just blindly accepts things. If this change ticks me off too much I'll just quit the game, as will many people. Losing income will show DE how well thought out their change is.

 

It's a BETA , you knew things were going to change and your right some people will stop playing and new people will take there place.

 

You can make a 100 threads about but it's still going to happen.

[Endgame77]

It's a BETA , you knew things were going to change and your right some people will stop playing and new people will take there place.

 

You can make a 100 threads about but it's still going to happen.

 

Oh cmon, this game isn't a Beta. They've been happily accepting peoples money for 2.5 years. How long does it take in your warped mind for a game to get out of Beta? Why don't you point me to where on Steam or this site it says Beta....

 

Yeah complaining about a change we don't like never works right? Oh wait, they just reversed their last big Survival change in less than 24 hours due to people being upset.....

 

I'm just so happy most people can think for themselves and don't just blindly accept what they don't like.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Endgame77

[Psychus]

I almost quit over equinox RNG. But yeah, the multishot change will likely ruin everything. The only way I could see it working is if the mod also doubled the clip size, which would be impossible for mods that are already dual stat with multishot unless DE are okay with making triplestat mods.

Man, you must not have been here for... original frame RNG, nekros RNG, Mesa RNG... the list goes on. If you almost quit over equinox, you have very little willpower.

 

'I will quit over something that has no concrete info or implementation, and I am sure a change I have no idea about will kill a game for me. So let's make a topic to fear-monger and *@##$ about it! '

 

 

yay!

This must be your first day on the forums lol. This is just a daily thing here. People freak out over one change or another. 

As for the OP. Stop. You help nobody, and I would be safe in assuming since you're on the PS4, you haven't been here for the more radical changes in warframes past. The mod 2.0 change DESTROYED a lot of weapons. I would even go so far as to say it was a bad change with the current state of mods. Let DE do their work. Parkour 2.0 was a masterpiece, and people reacted just as violently to that as they're with this change. That hasn't even happened yet. I got nothing but hate in general chat for my support of the multishot changes. It's a step in the right direction, and hopefully serration is next on the chopping block. 

The reason these changes are good? It's no longer going to be a required mod. It's going to be an option. As all mods SHOULD be. That's what the modding system should be, and that's what they envisioned. Not this "must have mutlishot, must have serration, must have blah blah blah." 

 

[Endgame77]

Man, you must not have been here for... original frame RNG, nekros RNG, Mesa RNG... the list goes on. If you almost quit over equinox, you have very little willpower.

 

This must be your first day on the forums lol. This is just a daily thing here. People freak out over one change or another. 

As for the OP. Stop. You help nobody, and I would be safe in assuming since you're on the PS4, you haven't been here for the more radical changes in warframes past. The mod 2.0 change DESTROYED a lot of weapons. I would even go so far as to say it was a bad change with the current state of mods. Let DE do their work. Parkour 2.0 was a masterpiece, and people reacted just as violently to that as they're with this change. That hasn't even happened yet. I got nothing but hate in general chat for my support of the multishot changes. It's a step in the right direction, and hopefully serration is next on the chopping block. 

The reason these changes are good? It's no longer going to be a required mod. It's going to be an option. As all mods SHOULD be. That's what the modding system should be, and that's what they envisioned. Not this "must have mutlishot, must have serration, must have blah blah blah." 

 

 

Willpower? A normal human being stops playing a video game when the video game stop being fun. It really is that simple.

[(PSN)Pharen]

Man, you must not have been here for... original frame RNG, nekros RNG, Mesa RNG... the list goes on. If you almost quit over equinox, you have very little willpower.

 

-snip-

 

Well I wasn't here for the original frame RNG because I started on PS4, which was at Update 11 maybe 11.5 I can't remember specifically when I started.

 

However all other frames I have gotten within 6 or 7 runs (I got mesa in 3 runs). I got well over 50 for equinox, and I stated to my clan if I get to 100 I quit because the grind is simply unreasonable.

Edited September 5, 2015 by (PS4)Pharen

[woah_dude]

Didn't they say they thaught putting a utility slot on weapons for things like ammo capacity, mag size, etc was a cool idea? If so they better roll that out with this change. Slightly lessen the blow of this major nerf.

 

yes, prime mods do not exist if u believe hard enough and their drain is not real, but anyway, great idea - lets call this slot "sulixe" and it will be obtainable either via 50k conclave standing, 3 forma, knux and a potato (and still drain energy poitns, obviously) or can be easily obtained on the market for a small fee of 30, 35 platinum ^_^ 

 

My body is ready for more quality changes <3 

[AlchemistMute]

That is a common conclusion. The issue I see coming is that all those weapons that were polarized with multishot as part of the build are now geared toward having what may be a detrimental mod and now must be repolarized. The more weapons you have, the more that need to be redone.

 

The people hurt most are the people like me, who would use forma to bring mediocre weapons up and may end up with a collection of things to fix rather than improved.

 

But this is what happens when they tear up the foundation over and over instead of getting around to building the house.

One way to fix this would be to invent the legendary core of Forma. All mod loadouts could be unequipped and all added polarities could be removed. For every Forma you lost, you get a Legendary Forma that can be used at any level and does not reset the weapon's level. Bam. Instead of polarizing and leveling your weapons all over again, you'll only spend maybe an hour instantly polarizing all of your weapons.

 

Obviously, this Forma can't be traded or crafted.

Edited September 5, 2015 by AlchemistMute

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

Well how about DE just give every weapon the stats it will have when multishot is equipped & just remove the mod entirely? We get to keep the function of split chamber while still having 1 mod slot for whatever. So this way atleast a newly forma'd weapon can kill lvl 20 enemies while lvl'ing it. 

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

Well how about DE just give every weapon the stats it will have when multishot is equipped & just remove the mod entirely? We get to keep the function of split chamber while still having 1 mod slot for whatever. So this way atleast a newly forma'd weapon can kill lvl 20 enemies while lvl'ing it. 

[Heatnix.]

I just did the math on the majority of my weapons.

 

This is going to get REALLY ugly. Mag size, % chance and overall capacity can't handle it using actual ammo. We will be soon forced to go full melee in this game since guns will be highly inefficient. I can tell you right now that Amprex is completely screwed and quite possibly the Supra will go back to sucking (since effectively it's magazine size will be virtually reduced to half again).

 

Honestly the excuse they gave is really bad. It's too painfully obvious they just want to release utility slots for guns and make plat off desperation from players having issues with various parts of the game for not having multishot.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Oh cmon, this game isn't a Beta. They've been happily accepting peoples money for 2.5 years. How long does it take in your warped mind for a game to get out of Beta? Why don't you point me to where on Steam or this site it says Beta....

 

Yeah complaining about a change we don't like never works right? Oh wait, they just reversed their last big Survival change in less than 24 hours due to people being upset.....

 

I'm just so happy most people can think for themselves and don't just blindly accept what they don't like.

 

They can call it a beta if they like, but the label is meaningless. They could call it a tunafish sandwich and it would still be the final stage of development. If Warframe will never go gold and the beta is the product they're selling, then "it's a beta" is not an excuse for anything.

 

 

One way to fix this would be to invent the legendary core of Forma. All mod loadouts could be unequipped and all added polarities could be removed. For every Forma you lost, you get a Legendary Forma that can be used at any level and does not reset the weapon's level. Bam. Instead of polarizing and leveling your weapons all over again, you'll only spend maybe an hour instantly polarizing all of your weapons.

 

Obviously, this Forma can't be traded or crafted.

 

 

Sure, why not? It's as good an answer to this as anything. I don't have a problem if they (assumed perfectly) rebalance the game and all the numbers are smaller as long as it plays similarly. I just don't want to have all my planning and grinding flushed down the toilet.

Edited September 5, 2015 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Leuca]

It has been a year since Damage 2.0. During this time, the non-dual stat +Status Chance mods have not been changed. Once. They have not been made worth using at any point despite multiple major updates, and despite the only necessary change to those being "let's increase the percentages here." It has been a year since Damage 2.0. During this time, the rifle and shotgun +I/P/S physical damage mods, which everyone knows are so weak as to be emphatically not worth using, have not been adjusted upwards at any point.

 

This is despite Damage 2.0's goal being "making rainbow builds on weapons unnecessary," and making physical damage mods powerful enough to compete with elemental damage ones would accomplish this goal in one fell swoop.

 

Let me remind you of this. It has been a year since DE has inadvertently made nine mods useless, and those mods are still useless today.

I didn't say DE was executing their damage system perfectly. I don't think they are. I do however think this is a step in the right direction if they approach it the right way.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

The mod 2.0 change DESTROYED a lot of weapons.

 

Which is why I completely trust them to rebalance everything this time. I should just let this go through uncontested.

 

Oh, wait. That 's a reason to not trust that they'll do it right.

[Deejudanne]

DE wants to lose players obviously 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I didn't say DE was executing their damage system perfectly. I don't think they are. I do however think this is a step in the right direction if they approach it the right way.

 

It's a step in the right direction that has a landmine in the path.

 

Rather than clearing the landmine (aka fixing the enemy scaling), DE's telling us to walk on through, promising that maybe they'll give us some shiny leather boots (rebalanced ammo pools) before then.

[TheBrsrkr]

I just did the math on the majority of my weapons.

This is going to get REALLY ugly. Mag size, % chance and overall capacity can't handle it using actual ammo. We will be soon forced to go full melee in this game since guns will be highly inefficient. I can tell you right now that Amprex is completely screwed and quite possibly the Supra will go back to sucking (since effectively it's magazine size will be virtually reduced to half again).

Honestly the excuse they gave is really bad. It's too painfully obvious they just want to release utility slots for guns and make plat off desperation from players having issues with various parts of the game for not having multishot.

Tinfoil hats! Get your tinfoil hats here!

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

Tinfoil hats! Get your tinfoil hats here!

Give me one please!

[TheBrsrkr]

Give me one please!

Depends on your answer....do you think DE is a soul sucking company that would break their own game to make a quick buck? If so, youuuuu got it!

[(PSN)SancticuS]

yes, prime mods do not exist if u believe hard enough and their drain is not real, but anyway, great idea - lets call this slot "sulixe" and it will be obtainable either via 50k conclave standing, 3 forma, knux and a potato (and still drain energy poitns, obviously) or can be easily obtained on the market for a small fee of 30, 35 platinum ^_^ 

 

My body is ready for more quality changes <3 

 

 

 

 

Honestly the excuse they gave is really bad. It's too painfully obvious they just want to release utility slots for guns and make plat off desperation from players having issues with various parts of the game for not having multishot.

 

This is the way I see DE going with this change as well. Like removing the 2 of the 10 warframe slots and introducing 1 back into the game as a "amazing" new feature that just happens to be immensely grid related. I would not be surprised at all if it ends up with that scenario.

 

Or maybe they will release a Umbra Hek that has innate multishot, Prisma Hek that has innate firerate increase, Prime Hek that has 4x ammo capacity and some dangly bits and then a Vaykor AkHek that is the only one that can use the new "For the Hek of it" mod that has 999% multishot. All because balance and diversity....

[Slifar]

With all the rebalancing that will come to the general population of the ammo economy, I personally think everything will be fine. Especially since the broken ammo econ will finally get looked at.

 

BUT, A lot of people are making pre-judgemental guesses on something they know nothing about because it has yet to happen.

Right? As it stands, it totally blows my mind that people think that a move to actually make ammo numbers matter again is a bad thing. Like, I can't even remember the last time I ran out of ammo when I was doing anything else BESIDES standing in one spot to mow down a hall of enemies. And even then, simply walking down said hall usually fixed that easily enough.

 

Ammo economy was supposed to be a potent balancing point. I, for one, think it'll be kinda nice to have it actually mean something once more! 

[Chroia]

Multishot =/= fire rate on any charge weapons.

Yes, it averages out, but are you really going to tell me that they play the same?

 

Aside from that, Split Chamber = 90%, vs  Speed Trigger's 60%. You can get 90% with Shred (which you'll arguably have on anyway) for the cost of another mod slot, or 90% with Vile Accel for the cost of 15% base damage.

 

Multishot is a multiplicative total damage increase. The more the difference in base stats between two weapons, the more it increases it.

Reduce the range of difference between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' (say, a maxed out Boltor P vs a maxed out Mk-1 Braton) and rebalance enemies' durability to match the new 'high end' weapons' TTK, and you've suddenly made a lot of mid tier weapons much more competitive.

Further, by reducing the heights to which high-tier weapons' damage can scale, you're made frame damage abilities that much more competitive.

 

Multishot costing ammo + increasing clip size won't make a difference unless DE also double ammo pickups.

It's a question of 'ammo per kill out' vs 'ammo per kill in'. (Which, for example, is why the Glaxion is of very limited use, despite a huge clip of 300 and a ridiculous reserve of 1500.)

 

Multishot is (mostly) overkill damage in the star chart.

As long as you can complete a whole rotation in T4, the change is fair game.

 

To people complaining about killing enemies in the Raid:

You're not supposed to. (Whether that's the design intention, or whether that's good design are a different discussion.)

The only enemies you need to be killing are power carriers, Disruptor Drones (when applicable) and Vay Hek.

 

To people complaining about long group endless runs:

Real long endless runs don't rely on weapons to kill. They rely on team composition/synergy.

 

To people complaining about long solo endless runs:

You're right. This may hurt, depending on what else does or doesn't change.

I could tell you to use an invis frame. I could tell you to use a frame with an armor stripping augment.

But neither of these would address the fact that whatever frame you're currently playing may not be able to last as long as it can now.

But the problem there, mostly, is enemy armor, not the removal of Multishot. The loss of Multishot merely highlights it.

[EmptyDevil]

-snip-

 

I don't think you actually know what sophistry is. Anyway, I can see you have nothing intelligent or reasonable to say and you're looking to start arguments. You're also putting words in my mouth and making very poor assumptions. Take better control of your emotions before you discuss a topic with opposing views, so you can get your point across without looking immature.

 

Instead of saying there are legitimate reasons to be upset and attacking valid statements by claiming they are sophistry, prove there are legit reasons by getting me to rethink my stance. If you can do that, then i'll believe there must be something seriously wrong with what DE intends to do. If you can't do that, then you're just whining for the sake of whining like most doomthread starters.

[Slaviar]

I agree with op. As long as enemy scaling- especially damage scaling- isn't changed multishot nerf (I don't believe it was a bug) will do nothing for modding variety