Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[DrBorris]

The only issue with this change is that it is all they are doing about mod balance... it is another treatment of a symptom rather than the problem.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

https://youtu.be/rgIQPIKgdFk?t=1730

"And this is a nightmare, because you're going to have to re-balance a lot of guns."

 

Translation: We're going to have to re-balance all of the guns. Wait, that didn't need a translation.... Hmm....

 

Meanwhile, status mods have been admitted as a problem for more than a year and still haven't been fixed despite how doing so requires no new code or assets.

 

Or how about blocking? Non-channeled blocking is a joke for just about every weapon. Channeled blocking is also a joke for everything that has an automatic weapon. DE in the leadup to Parkour 2.0 said they'd change blocking and make it good, just with DR because stamina's gone. Well guess what, it's not good.

 

I think it's pretty fair to be doubtful that DE's gonna get this right. It's just as fair to want them to put this on the backburner until they've made it so enemy scaling isn't as punishing as it is now, so we can afford to lose some DPS without being unable to complete raids and high level endless missions (which we need to do in order to beat RNG without grinding even more than we do now.)

 

 

 

Again, part of this change is bringing weapon power more in-line with warframe powers in terms of damage and kill-times.

 

That goal is a fool's errand. People use the highly damaging guns because those are the most effective ways to deal with immensely bulletspongy enemies present in high level play. Powers don't do enough damage to compete, so they're not used for damage at all, just utility.

However, nerfing gun damage just means that players can't do endgame content any more because of how enemy damage and effective health scales means it takes them whole magazines to kill one Bombard[100], like what I encountered in a delicious four pack spawn during my last nightmare raid. Right now, with 4xCP and a near optimized endgame gun, I could take those down before they knocked my teammates off the pad. But I could only do this because of my hek's massive damage. With the multishot change... I'm going to be reloading that hek after every bombard killed.

I don't know about you, but I don't feel confident in waxing four bombards before they can get a missile off and knock one of my teammates off the pads if you cut my DPS in half.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[MrSpeedWeed]

Is this just a knee-jerk reaction to the multi-shot issue?  I suspect DE also needs to "nerf" this to align the whole game experience with their overall plan for our weapons (especially Melee weapons.) 

 

After the generous shotgun buff, I noticed that very few Tenno were using the melee weapons they are leveling.  So sad, because a few of these really are "elegant weapons for a more civilized age."  And soon we will be bashing Corpus heads with Nunchaka!  I would really like to think that someone at DE has the long view in mind, and there will be a little pain as we achieve balance. 

 

P.S.  Don't throw anything too heavy, you might hurt yourself. 

 

 

 

 

[(PSN)ArgusTheMan]

DE I love your game, I really do but when nerfs like this come around I lose motivation to play this amazing game.

Instead of nerfing and ruining the game balance completely, make more unique and interesting enemies that won't just have us destroy them as soon as we see them in our crosshair( nullifiers anyone?).

This nerf will be very badly received by the community it's not worth the wrath of the player base.

(On a side note give ps4 a higher frequency of platinum discounts, we don't get the possibility of discounts in daily rewards)

[lightdragon64]

i don't really see how changing the multishot mechanic will "ruin the balance" to me it's more like a risk v.s. reward type thing, more bullets in one enemy in less time v.s. ammo consumption.

 

and besides they said it was a bug, so think of it as a hotfix that was long overdue

[Mcl_Blue]

ruining the game balance completely

HA! Funny.

[vincer77]

More information is needed before we really know anything pro or con wise.

Hopefully this will turn out good, just at the moment it is hard to see that with the current info.

[HalfDarkShadow]

What really pisses me off is that they used the excuse of "oh it not using ammo is a bug".

 

That is a piss poor excuse, especially for the amount of time it has been out.

If my mind serves me right, the original intention was to have the ammo consumption. Someone mentioned with, Dark Sector having something similar to this.

So I'd really wouldn't go as far as saying it's an "excuse". Just like coptering, they rolled with it for a long while, and now it's time to make some changes to what they have envisioned for the see-able future. Especially since most of this discussion is just speculative, since we really don't know anything on what exactly will end up being changed with Multishot in the end if they completely change the idea, how it will specifically function what what will it affect exactly within the game, how it will affect us, and other tid bits (assuming they stay with the ammo conception idea), like how much will it consume, what weapons will have to be tweaked, what other mechanics and mods (or the mod itself) will need to be changed, and so on.

 

There is so much we really don't know about beyond that they are in the talks of something being changed with Multishot, and the general balance of some mods within the mod system. But I guess we'll see when it gets to it. Hell, like I said in another thread, we might not hear anything about it until next year hahaha~ 

Edited September 5, 2015 by HalfDarkShadow

[DeMonkey]

This nerf will be very badly received by the community it's not worth the wrath of the player base.

Please don't try and speak for the community. Making Multishot ''optional'' instead of ''necessary'' is in my opinion a step in the right direction. Mandatory mods shouldn't exist.

 

Multishot taking up extra bullets was how it worked in Dark Sector, it worked pretty well, made me actually think about whether I wanted to apply it or not. Do I want a kickass shotgun with 3 shots instead of 6? Or do I want to keep my weaker, but more forgiving shotgun?

[Liminal]

IMO MS should have never existed. It's a chance to get free (as in, costs no ammo) 100% rate of fire buff.

[-skimmer-]

Well, it would screw over most of the fast firing secondaries while the strongest ones(like lex and marelok) remain unaffected and even stronger than they are now....

[Barkano]

say good bye .to status chance builds

[FreakyCheeze]

If their change to multishot comes through without a drastic rebalance to enemies/weapons, I'm out. The game is already imbalanced enough (hello bombards), a push this big and I'll just switch back to League of Legends or another game.

[OvAeons]

Well, it would screw over most of the fast firing secondaries while the strongest ones(like lex and marelok) remain unaffected and even stronger than they are now....

high rate of fire weapons are getting hit the hardest with the change will make most useless :P and i think kohm will get the worst of it cause of the already increased ammo consumption.

[Endgame77]

Please don't try and speak for the community. Making Multishot ''optional'' instead of ''necessary'' is in my opinion a step in the right direction. Mandatory mods shouldn't exist.

 

Multishot taking up extra bullets was how it worked in Dark Sector, it worked pretty well, made me actually think about whether I wanted to apply it or not. Do I want a kickass shotgun with 3 shots instead of 6? Or do I want to keep my weaker, but more forgiving shotgun?

 

Mandatory mods should not exist? In a game where the vast majority of primary weapon mods affect 1 weapon type, please explain to me why mandatory mods is a bad thing how they could ever eliminate it. What you are saying makes no sense.

 

This is a game that some people spend real life money on. If you break weapons that people both enjoy and have invested in, well, you will tick off many players.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Endgame77

[FruntlineXtreme]

Remember Hydroid "nerf" like two weeks ago? Me neither.

 

People will cry for a day or two, complain about how Steve touched them in the locker room the devs are evil, and go back to farming Draco.

 

In my opinion, this is hardly a "nerf." If multishot was never intended to work the way it does now and they are fixing it, that just seems like a patch to me.

Edited September 5, 2015 by FruntlineXtreme

[DeMonkey]

Mandatory mods should not exist? In a game where the vast majority of primary weapon mods affect 1 weapon type, please explain to me why mandatory mods is a bad thing how they could ever eliminate it. What you are saying makes no sense.

 

This is a game that some people spend real life money on. If you break weapons that people both enjoy and have invested in, well, you will tick off many players.

Not sure what you're saying... Not sure even you know what you're saying. Mandatory mods are bad, fact, whats the point in having 8 slots on my weapon if currently Serration/Point Blank and Split Chamber/Hells Chamber are guaranteed to take up 2 of them? That's not 8 slots of customisation, that's 6.

 

It's worse on Crit weapons as well like Dread/Soma. Only 4 slots of customisation since you need Point Strike and Vital Sense.

 

Removing one of these mods as a necessity is good. I believe DE have stated that ammo hungry weapons will be looked at to accomodate the changes to multishot, although I may be wrong.

[Attel_Malagate]

If you can't deal with changes then you probably shouldn't be here.

 

This is just like saying that removing coptering would kill the game for you, but of course they didn't just remove coptering they made parkour 2.

And now they said multishot will change, but you have no idea what they will change with it.

 

but hey, better create a forum post about how its going to kill the game for me, before I know how its going to change.

Parkour 2.0 didn't force me to FORMA ALL OF MY WEAPONS TO GET A DECENT RESULT AGAIN

[Endgame77]

Not sure what you're saying... Not sure even you know what you're saying. Mandatory mods are bad, fact, whats the point in having 8 slots on my weapon if currently Serration/Point Blank and Split Chamber/Hells Chamber are guaranteed to take up 2 of them? That's not 8 slots of customisation, that's 6.

 

It's worse on Crit weapons as well like Dread/Soma. Only 4 slots of customisation since you need Point Strike and Vital Sense.

 

Removing one of these mods as a necessity is good. I believe DE have stated that ammo hungry weapons will be looked at to accomodate the changes to multishot, although I may be wrong.

 

I'm simplify it for you, obviously it's needed. In Warframe the vast majority of Primary weapon mods are rifle mods, hence the most used weapon type are Rifles. Since Rifles are the most used primary please explain to me how certain mods can not be powerful across all rifles? Serration, elemental mods, multishot, etc are all used in pretty much every build.

 

So, explain to me, how when using Rifles they could EVER eliminate mods that are used across all weapons? Did I simplify it enough? Do you maybe require cliff notes?

 

It'f kinda funny you're putting me down when your topic makes no sense. Heck, you're complaining about having to use +crit chance and +crit multiplier on all crit weapons.....

Edited September 5, 2015 by Endgame77

[(PSN)robotwars7]

how about they just tweak Multishot Mods so that they increase Recoil, or the time it takes to reload? problem solved.

[TheBrsrkr]

People would rage no natter what DE does. Add more weapons? Rage. New frame? Rage. Shotgun buff? Rage. The subject changes, but the words stay the same.

[ChameleonDude]

The OP sums up my view on the effort of polarities, forma and the time spent on them quite nicely.

 

While I personally don't want to have mandatory mods on all of my weapons, those weapons have had a lot of time and effort put into them to accept these mods. We need a rebalance, an overhaul to all things weapons, enemies and mods - but we need it all at once. Having to re-forma all of my gear once (maybe twice for secondaries) is bad. Having to play in this limbo between multi-shot nerf and other things truly balanced will be bad. But if these kinds of changes come one at a time, I'm out.

 

I know it's a lot of work to overhaul the fundamentals of the game, but we can't have it coming out piece by piece. If you're going to change multi-shot: change + damage mods; alter how elementals work; rebalance the weapons so we have a larger variety of ones with decent stats;  implement and perfect the focus system to cover some of these changes; rebalance enemies; fix abysmal enemy scaling later on and sort out the imbalance in warframe abilities. If we get these kinds of changes individually, or even further broken down parts of them (such as multi-shot), with gaps in between; the game will suffer. Nobody will know what to do with their hard-earned gear. People will respec just to have to respec again; or leave their equipment as it is and suffer until everything's sorted.

 

I don't want mandatory mods. I don't want brokenly over-powered weapons. I conversely don't want useless weapons. I don't want to have to redo all of my hard work, just to have to redo it all over again. Unless U18 will completely address all of these issues, hold back the changes that are being worked on. Let them come when the time is right, and everything will slot together nicely. If your playerbase are doing a jigsaw puzzle, don't start changing the shapes of some of the pieces - it won't work.

[Kolos1001]

IMO MS should have never existed. It's a chance to get free (as in, costs no ammo) 100% rate of fire buff.

The problem like they said is that it's a "bug" that they've left alone for over a year. The entire game is now balanced around it existing.

[Kaisty]

Not sure what you're saying... Not sure even you know what you're saying. Mandatory mods are bad, fact, whats the point in having 8 slots on my weapon if currently Serration/Point Blank and Split Chamber/Hells Chamber are guaranteed to take up 2 of them? That's not 8 slots of customisation, that's 6.

 

It's worse on Crit weapons as well like Dread/Soma. Only 4 slots of customisation since you need Point Strike and Vital Sense.

 

Removing one of these mods as a necessity is good. I believe DE have stated that ammo hungry weapons will be looked at to accomodate the changes to multishot, although I may be wrong.

They may look at the weapons, but it depends on how long it takes for them to fix the ammo hungry weapons. Will it be in a week or will it be six months to a year down the road for the fix to come? You don't change something that was supposed to be fixed long ago until you look into the ramifications that will arise from it. The "bug" that multi-shot had made some weapons actually usable because either the status procs needed a boost or it just didn't do the job for later maps.  With the changes coming, those weapons go from good/usable to mastery fodder / wasted forma's and cores.

 

If DE didn't have the bullet sponge mobs, ramped up armor artificial difficulty, and layers of RNG walls all in place, most folks wouldn't complain about changes that make the mandatory mods what they are in the first place.  Bullet Sponge mobs are fine on their own so long as there are numerous ways to kill them, likewise RNG walls are nice when you are keeping folks interested in a game as well as some Artificial difficulty that increases the danger in an operation in order to drive the players to evac instead of holding out in a room or tunnel and just spamming weapons and abilities. But sadly, DE combined all three in a way that for some folks require the use of bugs in order to try and get the most of each (I.E. Stacking 4 CP with different proc weapons on a defense frame and a few room nukers just to hopefully get something from the layers of RNG set in place.) Since it seems that DE is changing the players loadout and abilities while leaving the mobs the same, they are probably going to have folks take them less seriously about making this the "Year of Quality" that folks keep bringing up (and yes, it is September, three months left in the year!)

 

The only thing that folks can do now (if they still find the urge to play the game) is to give feedback on the game or if they just can't take how DE is "fixing" their game, then find better uses for their time and money. You can't force people to put money into the game if they don't like it and if DE even thought of trying that option...... I want whatever drugs they are using that got them to think of something like that.

[FallenAngelRuby]

What an odd mod to nerf and then classify it as a bug to justify the nerf. If they were looking at removing mandatory mods why not just read up on the 9001 other forums posts on  making serration an innate mod and having the weapon get stronger the more you level it.