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Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

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Multishot Mods in this game are just dumb damage boost. Im glad they decided to change it.

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I'm all for this multishot change but I do agree with you that this is a lot of work and it seems weird that they chose this to finally rework on all the weapons when there's a lot of other stuff that needed to be rebalanced as well. 

 

But maybe this isn't the only change, maybe while they're rebalancing all the weapons for the new multishot change they're also rebalancing the weapons in general. Two birds one stone thing?

Yeah maybe. I'm not being critical about the change yet, bacause I'd rather see it first before forming an opinion.

This could be a chance to rebalance all weapons, but in disguise. XD

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 I'll repeat myself this time.

 

DE is extremely short sighted with such decisions, they are treating symptoms, bandaids we use to overcome things that they honestly borked on their end. And they refuse to treat the source of the problem.

 

Surely, reworking everything to accommodate for e.g. new and finite tiering system would be costly, difficult and I'm damn sure would result in some outrage, but in the long run, it should be much more enjoyable than the unsupervised mess we have now.

 

Many people suggest taking a look at ME3 coop mode and "copying" what was done right there, I'm going to suggest the same thing.

 

Same thing with droptables, where DE overfills and weighs them with pure bullS#&$, community hates such change so DE in all of their grace removes problematic items just to replace them with even worse stuff.

 

That's... Distilled bullS#&$.

 

 

 

Multishot Mods in this game are just dumb damage boost. Im glad they decided to change it.

 

Nearly every mod available is a straight damage boost, be it burst or sustained DPS.

 

Even god damn magazine warp increases your sustained dps!

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People are gonna rage so hard, while forgetting weapons will also be rebalanced for it.

 

Multishot doesn't have a drawback, so it makes sense to change it. Especially if it was always meant to consume ammo.

 

So they are way superior firerate mods??? Logic to have them ingame(either them or the other)?

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That reach in the title tho

 

There's been a trend of DE "fixing bugs" which made the game more interesting, such as explosions scoring headshots, the 'bug' that allowed for you to basically ignore the Stamina system back when we had Stamina, and now how multishot doesn't increase ammunition consumption, without understanding that these 'bugs,' intentional or not, made the game more interesting.

 

At this point, asking a blunt question is important because I think that DE has gotten so focused on the idea of beating down all these little niggles with their game that they're ignoring whether or not the changes will make the game more fun.

 

Okay, DE, now everyone's ammunition depletes two to three times as fast, or they take two to three times longer to kill an enemy. How is this more fun? How does this make Warframe more interesting?

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What this feels like, to me, is the change from Borderlands to Borderlands 2. In Borderlands, there was a type of weapon called "Double Anarchy" which functions exactly like multi-shot currently does. The issue, is that if a weapon was able to use Double Anarchy, it was considered the only 'real' viable version of the weapon. It was the most sought after (pre-modding) because it had the best damage possible.

 

In Borderlands 2, they changed this. Weapons that increased the number of shots fired per trigger pull (like multishot), also consumed ammo. This was especially potent on shotguns as shotguns had a base number of pellets. Any shotgun that fired more than the base, consumed additional ammo, and the larger the increase in pellets, the larger the increase in ammo consumption.

 

This essentially made certain versions of weapons, practically, unwieldable. Now, granted, Borderlands also lets you fire a shot as long as you have only a single bullet in the magazine, regardless of how much ammo it consumes, and you don't have to pay the additional ammo cost i.e. your shotgun consumes 4 ammo per shot, but you only have 1 shot left, you still fire the shot and deal full damage.

 

The problem is, this change drastically increased the rate at which you needed to reload your weapon, and drastically increased your ammo consumption.

 

Let's use a hypothetical weapon of Assault Rifle. Say it has an 80 round clip, firing 8 shots per second and empties it's clip in 10 seconds. Currently, with multishot, you would actually be firing, on average, 152 bullets instead of 80 and reloading every 10 seconds (during sustained fire). After this change, you will only ever fire 80 shots, but your rate of fire jumps to about 15 shots a second, so you will be emptying you clip about every 5 seconds.

 

What this does, is make any sort of automatic weapon practically unuseable with multishot. This will, effectively, cut the damage of all weapons in half, minimum.

 

Rifles will have their DPS cut in half (90% multishot is close enough to 100 to not be all that significant a difference) unless they are extremely ammo efficient (like bows). Shotguns will face a similar reduction, but the Hek is a special one. It currently has 320% multishot, so it will consume 3 shots per trigger pull 100% of the time, and 4 shots per trigger pull, 20% of the time. This, effectively, cuts the damage of the Hek into 1/3 of it's current.

 

You just buffed the Hek, and now it's going to be nerfed.

 

Pistols are in a similar place to the Hek. With 180% of multishot, that means they are guaranteed to burn their ammo twice as quickly, minimum, or nearly 3 times as fast if they use both Barrel Diffusion and Lethal Torrent.

Honestly? There is no amount of weapon rebalancing that can fix this. This change will, effectively, make it so going bast 40 minutes in a survival, or 40 waves of defense with anything other than top-tier weapoins, and lots of ammo restores, a practical impossibility. In order to use a high DPS weapon like the Boltor, it will require bringing an incredibly ammo efficient weapon as a secondary, like the Vaykor Marelok or Lex Prime, or, conversely, you need to bring an ammo efficient primary (basically, a Bow), in order to use an ammo inefficient secondary.

If the purpose of this change is to make it so that you have more choices in your mod slots, technically, it works, because you simplly cannot use multishot on a large swaths of weapons. This means an even larger number of weapons are rendered unuseable outside of low-level content. At the same time, it also makes the problem worse than it was before, because Ammo Mutation becomes a necessary fact of life if you ever want to use multishot on any weapon other than the extremely ammo efficient weapons.

Either way, this change is going to drastically lower the over-all damage of all weapons. No amount of weapon rebalancing is going to fix this.

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There's been a trend of DE "fixing bugs" which made the game more interesting, such as explosions scoring headshots, the 'bug' that allowed for you to basically ignore the Stamina system back when we had Stamina, and now how multishot doesn't increase ammunition consumption, without understanding that these 'bugs,' intentional or not, made the game more interesting.

 

At this point, asking a blunt question is important because I think that DE has gotten so focused on the idea of beating down all these little niggles with their game that they're ignoring whether or not the changes will make the game more fun.

 

Okay, DE, now everyone's ammunition depletes two to three times as fast, or they take two to three times longer to kill an enemy. How is this more fun? How does this make Warframe more interesting?

How does this even ruin or make something fun? You're reaching so hard right now and you're probably going to get over it anyway

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Multishot Mods in this game are just dumb damage boost. Im glad they decided to change it.

You wont be so glad when you cant kill level 100 heavy gunners.

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Sorry this has probably been mentioned already but if multishot starts to consume ammo it really just becomes speed trigger and basically pointless. It's only worth is the fact it doesn't consume ammo.

And I'm not buying the bug excuse either, sorry doesn't ring true to me.

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How does this even ruin or make something fun? You're reaching so hard right now and you're probably going to get over it anyway

How about being unable to use your weapons because THEY HAVE NO AMMO!?

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Sorry this has probably been mentioned already but if multishot starts to consume ammo it really just becomes speed trigger and basically pointless. It's only worth is the fact it doesn't consume ammo.

And I'm not buying the bug excuse either, sorry doesn't ring true to me.

Pretty much, yeah. Mods like Split Chamber are just another fire rate mod now.

 If only they'd spend time working on actual problems...

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Sorry this has probably been mentioned already but if multishot starts to consume ammo it really just becomes speed trigger and basically pointless. It's only worth is the fact it doesn't consume ammo.

And I'm not buying the bug excuse either, sorry doesn't ring true to me.

Indeed, I seriously think it is a blatant lie by DE.

 

Shame on them for even saying it was a bug.

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How does this even ruin or make something fun? You're reaching so hard right now and you're probably going to get over it anyway

 

If fun is killing your targets quickly and efficiently (for me it is), then "your gun either kills half as quickly because no multishot" or "your gun reloads twice as much and you need to spam ammo restores" reduces fun for me, because it increases the time it takes me to kill my enemies.

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I mean I'm all for removing mandatory mods, but this isn't the way to do it. As many others have said this just changes it from multishot to Rate of Fire with a different name.

 

I'd much rather the damage from split chamber/hells chamber/etc and serration/point blank/etc was rolled into the weapons and gets to maximum power at weapon rank 30. Then you can make choices with mods.

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This seems like a pretty major bug to put off fixing. So many weapons will have to be remodded. I mean making multishot not a mandatory mod is great, but why wait so long to do it. I like forma'ing weapons but atm with this change incoming unless something is done about polarities, it's better to sit on forma than use it.

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What this feels like, to me, is the change from Borderlands to Borderlands 2. In Borderlands, there was a type of weapon called "Double Anarchy" which functions exactly like multi-shot currently does. The issue, is that if a weapon was able to use Double Anarchy, it was considered the only 'real' viable version of the weapon. It was the most sought after (pre-modding) because it had the best damage possible.

 

In Borderlands 2, they changed this. Weapons that increased the number of shots fired per trigger pull (like multishot), also consumed ammo. This was especially potent on shotguns as shotguns had a base number of pellets. Any shotgun that fired more than the base, consumed additional ammo, and the larger the increase in pellets, the larger the increase in ammo consumption.

 

This essentially made certain versions of weapons, practically, unwieldable. Now, granted, Borderlands also lets you fire a shot as long as you have only a single bullet in the magazine, regardless of how much ammo it consumes, and you don't have to pay the additional ammo cost i.e. your shotgun consumes 4 ammo per shot, but you only have 1 shot left, you still fire the shot and deal full damage.

 

The problem is, this change drastically increased the rate at which you needed to reload your weapon, and drastically increased your ammo consumption.

 

Let's use a hypothetical weapon of Assault Rifle. Say it has an 80 round clip, firing 8 shots per second and empties it's clip in 10 seconds. Currently, with multishot, you would actually be firing, on average, 152 bullets instead of 80 and reloading every 10 seconds (during sustained fire). After this change, you will only ever fire 80 shots, but your rate of fire jumps to about 15 shots a second, so you will be emptying you clip about every 5 seconds.

 

What this does, is make any sort of automatic weapon practically unuseable with multishot. This will, effectively, cut the damage of all weapons in half, minimum.

 

Rifles will have their DPS cut in half (90% multishot is close enough to 100 to not be all that significant a difference) unless they are extremely ammo efficient (like bows). Shotguns will face a similar reduction, but the Hek is a special one. It currently has 320% multishot, so it will consume 3 shots per trigger pull 100% of the time, and 4 shots per trigger pull, 20% of the time. This, effectively, cuts the damage of the Hek into 1/3 of it's current.

 

You just buffed the Hek, and now it's going to be nerfed.

 

Pistols are in a similar place to the Hek. With 180% of multishot, that means they are guaranteed to burn their ammo twice as quickly, minimum, or nearly 3 times as fast if they use both Barrel Diffusion and Lethal Torrent.

Honestly? There is no amount of weapon rebalancing that can fix this. This change will, effectively, make it so going bast 40 minutes in a survival, or 40 waves of defense with anything other than top-tier weapoins, and lots of ammo restores, a practical impossibility. In order to use a high DPS weapon like the Boltor, it will require bringing an incredibly ammo efficient weapon as a secondary, like the Vaykor Marelok or Lex Prime, or, conversely, you need to bring an ammo efficient primary (basically, a Bow), in order to use an ammo inefficient secondary.

If the purpose of this change is to make it so that you have more choices in your mod slots, technically, it works, because you simplly cannot use multishot on a large swaths of weapons. This means an even larger number of weapons are rendered unuseable outside of low-level content. At the same time, it also makes the problem worse than it was before, because Ammo Mutation becomes a necessary fact of life if you ever want to use multishot on any weapon other than the extremely ammo efficient weapons.

Either way, this change is going to drastically lower the over-all damage of all weapons. No amount of weapon rebalancing is going to fix this.

 

This is a fantastic summary and I hope people actually read it and allow it to sink in. It's really baffling that people are actually supporting this decision, and the only conclusion I can arrive to is that they simply aren't thinking.

 

EDIT: Reading some of these posts that have been quoted, it's obvious that people aren't thinking. Awful.

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@Pumba: With all your logic, you made one error:

 

320% multishot mean 420% pellets out. If the hek shoot 10 pellets base, it would have with such a number then 42! pellets.

180% multishot mean 280% bullets out. 1 bullet will mean next to 3 bullets.

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Considering how quickly they fixed viver, I really doubt that was a bug and that they were just hidnig a nerf.

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I can agree with Mofixil this was a bad timing and idea to nerf these mods and they really can check around to use other examples to improve their's game. Otherwise the mod system in itself a broken thing because the problems always was the good and bad mods and the customization is relativly dead. They should try to rework all tiers and all weapons to viable in game with advantages and disadvantages and slight buffs with forging or socketing our weapons then let enable to peoples "modding" their weapons specifically with small rate.

 

Then the enemy scaling should begin with the tiers and the AI improvements with in addition tactic and better strategies instead of buff their hp/armor/damage which just makes cycles and almost impossible surviving on very high levels. Not need oneshot your enemies but a challenging AI with equal ability to survive could be better and can tend the games into a skill based game.

"wanted to wrote into another thread which closed"

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I can guarantee you that if it were this way from the start there would be hardly a peep from anyone complaining about it. It's just that people don't like change, especially change that boots them from their easy comfort zone.  

 

And it's like your opinion man, that it's a bad idea.

The situation wouldn't be all too different honestly, but instead of multishot being on the side of the table as a must have it'd be with the rest of the spare mods that the community has been complaining about for decades that need improvements, because fact of the matter is that this direction isn't good one way or the other. As it is now it's unique but a must, with this change it is just as others mention, a glorified fire rate mod, neither one is all too great a situation to have. 

 

So don't pin this all on "people don't like change" because that's such a crud excuse, people don't like bad changes, which is what this seems like it will chalk up to be, another inferior grade adjustment that does nothing to actually repair the real issues this game has. 

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This is a fantastic summary and I hope people actually read it and allow it to sink in. It's really baffling that people are actually supporting this decision, and the only conclusion I can arrive to is that they simply aren't thinking.

 

EDIT: Reading some of these posts that have been quoted, it's obvious that people aren't thinking. Awful.

but you forget, de is absolutely flawless and without fault, after all they did make this game and are clearly vastly superior to the rest of us common folk

 

(apology for the double post, figured it would chain into my prior post <//3)

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The situation wouldn't be all too different honestly, but instead of multishot being on the side of the table as a must have it'd be with the rest of the spare mods that the community has been complaining about for decades that need improvements, because fact of the matter is that this direction isn't good one way or the other. As it is now it's unique but a must, with this change it is just as others mention, a glorified fire rate mod, neither one is all too great a situation to have. 

 

So don't pin this all on "people don't like change" because that's such a crud excuse, people don't like bad changes, which is what this seems like it will chalk up to be, another inferior grade adjustment that does nothing to actually repair the real issues this game has. 

Indeed.

 

It's not that we dont approve of this change because it is a change.

 

We dont approve of this change because it is a BAD change.

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So is this week some sort of Holiday where you're supposed to disappoint everyone around you or something as a theme?

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