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Noctiferous

Multishot Change Good? Or Bad?

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My biggest concern is that while you do indeed create more mod slot diversity you are indirectly creating less weapon diversity. You think seeing players run around with the standard boltor and soma is bad enough already then wait until a massive fraction of the current available weapons take a massive nerf because they can no longer afford to run multi shot mods. Kiss your amprex, twin grakata, aksomati, Secura Dual Cestras etc good bye as no amount of ammo mutation will sustain that multi shot mod when they by default they already have ammo consumption issues. A huge chunk of weapons are basically getting their damage cut in half with no way of making up for it. Sure lets enjoy our new found mod diversity on the now about dozen or so viable weapons for end game.

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Issue is that the player base has been asking for less bad RNG and every single decision they've made has increased the bad RNG for the most part. You could work around the bad RNG by doing extremely long void sessions and squeeze the most out of each key where applicable, lower overall weapon DPS just means more grinding (until starchart 3.0, if that even fixes anything) so a lot of people aren't having it because they're seeing that DE is just trying to put breaks on how fast players can acquire new gear over and over by "fixing" things that are needed to deal with the broken aspects of the game that they won't fix/made worse with updates.

There's zero benefit to DE to encourage grind reduction if the only reason people are playing is because of the grind.

 

Until the majority of players are running captures and sabotages and the like all across the starchart "just cuz'" this isn't going to change.  The player base focuses on material gains, plays only if there are material gains to be made, and not surprisingly, quit when there are no longer any material gains to be made.  It's been this way for a while, and will do so for a while yet as long as the carrot-on-a-stick continues to work to keep players playing (and paying) long after they would have grown bored and quit otherwise.

 

And really, there's nothing a developer can do to change this mentality.  Anything "fun" is reduced to a streamlined process and people are only interested once again in what they're rewarded for their "work" and how soon.  This mentality is further reinforced when people look at a new weapon and judge it either as mastery fodder or the next de facto go-to weapon.

 

So do tell, how exactly would lessening the grind help DE stay in business?  At all?  Because from the way the gamer population is at large, the grind is what keeps games going, as much as said populace hates grinding.  Ironic, eh?

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Maybe if the game didn't have ridiculously large quantities of meat-shields we wouldn't be so upset about one the the most important damage dealing mechanics being nerfed. I feel weapons should be like frames, as they level they get better stats. The modding system is flawed and only further hurt by severe powercreep on the enemies.

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The only way to make this acceptable is if the multishot pulls from the pool of reserve ammunition. It prevents reload issues, lets you still spam things effectively, and yeah, you're going to waste a lot of ammunition, but on the positive side, increasing reserve ammo pools makes it a little easier. However, Carrier usage will likely go up if they go this route.

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What DE mentioned in the dev stream was that a few mods are basically auto includes in every weapon, so for rifles they specifically said serration, split chamber and shred. Now as far as I know, not everyone auto includes shred, I personally do for the puncture through and I don't wanna waist extra capacity on metal auger. But here's the thing, serration is also an auto include, it's extra damage with no downsides, yea split chamber is damage crit and status with no downsides but its only 90%, not 165%. So I don't think multishot is the issue here, Actually I don't think it's an issue at all personally because with more or less every weapon in the game there is a handful of mods that are always used, and other put in for a certain play style, just like there is for Warframes. Warframes have flow, more energy for free as well as rage and quick thinking which is a staple in a lot of frames and DE incentivised using other mods with an exilus slot, they didn't nerf what was already heavily used. I believe they need to do something similar because nerfing multishot is not the way. P.S. I love it how they said at one point that they never run into ammo issues with really any weapon, I just laughed, there are plenty of fast fireing weapons with the same ammo pool as slower, much harder hitting weapons that I run into ammo problems with a lot, and I'm not even using the fire rate -damage mods.

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The whole change seems kinda sloppy to me. Nerfing multishot first and rebalancing later just seems bad at face value. Now, if they were to rebalance and nerf multishot and release it all at the same time, then we'd be having a different conversation. But as it is being proposed now, it's a mag size nerf to every weapon except a select few (because of being incompatible with multishot... Mutalist Quanta, etc). With a lot of weapons, it can make the difference between running around and killing enemies, or standing over an ammo pack for most of the mission. Also the reasoning behind it was pretty poor - "it was a bug, but we just rolled with it for two years." If it was a bug, fine - should have been squashed from the beginning. If it were, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But making this change now, especially after it's become a staple on weapons, and how the change is to be made sounds like a bad decision to me.

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They already have your money why would they make anything easier on you.

how is that relevant to my post?

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No you won't. The damage you gain from the mod will still be there, as well as the bad enemy scaling. Its still a mandatory mod 

I agree!

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No you won't. The damage you gain from the mod will still be there, as well as the bad enemy scaling. Its still a mandatory mod 

This suggests fire rate mods in some form are necessary.

 

Depends on how far you intend to go though.  If you're lugging your way into level 30-40 content, maybe.  Beyond that?  Sure.  Before that?  Nah.

 

 

 

Most of the game is designed and balanced around "before that."

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You're making an assumption you can't prove.

LImbo, Ember,Saryn,Volt's ult,nekros only use being seen as a farm frame,oberon really all these frames need a rework but still haven't for many updates. So saying they are going to fix every single weapon's ammo to match up with this change, mind you that's at least over 50+ weapons not to metion prime prisma and wraith weapons, is like calming that it is possible by just eating icecream will make you skinny its not going to happen 

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I can see how all endless missions become camping, with mesa\saryn spam in def and sewers camp with pentas\tonkors etc in surv. Coz there no way you can keep up damage with current stupid enemy scaling without multishot

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Multi shot is turning into expensive fire rate and personally the real thing that should be rebalanced is serration etc.

A weapon that do 50 damage against an enemy with 500k total life, and they are gonna make us do half the damage we are doing now...

They don't play this game.

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This suggests fire rate mods in some form are necessary.

Depends on how far you intend to go though. If you're lugging your way into level 30-40 content, maybe. Beyond that? Sure. Before that? Nah.

Most of the game is designed and balanced around "before that."

Game is balanced around about 40 minutes in survival. About raid level. 60-80 range.

More stuff needs to be brought to that level.

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The raid starts at lvl 80 and goes around the equivalent of going from 40 - 60 minutes in survival by the end of it. I do agree though that if this is considered the endgame of sorts, that our gear in the game and other issues like mods need to be brought in line with that. I don't think that nerfing the required damage mods to even scatch the paint of that level is an appropriate choice given the real issue of enemy scaling.

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Game is balanced around about 40 minutes in survival. About raid level. 60-80 range.

More stuff needs to be brought to that level.

No, the game is more balanced around level 30-40 as the top end, where all enemies hit hard enough to be a threat (and I'm not talking 1-2 shotting Tenno,) but don't have so much life that only upper tier weapons can really put them down.  Even the MKI Braton and Lato can perform here, if just barely.  Essentially, power creep through select weapons and very powerful mods made level 60-80 enemies easier than intended.  Take away split chamber and barrel diffusion.  Now what is the level range a Tenno can handle before enemies get too stubborn to die?

 

 

I think that ammo drop rate that works around the multishot rework would help compensate for it.

 

While weapons should really collect ammo based on their expenditure rates, I doubt ammo pick ups would be adjusted to the point they'd negate multi-shot's expenditure rate.  That would kind of defeat the purpose and render ammo recovery mods fairly obsolete, and they're already special case scenarios as is.

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Bad. It will have heavy impact on a lot of guns. It won't make now weak weapons any better, but make a lot of good guns terrible (Grakatas, Grinlok, e.t.c.). It's like Synoid Gammacor nerf but applied to every gun, weak, average, good and OP altogether. If the OP gun has large mag size and average fire rate - it's still OP. If not - goodbye.

 

This change would require either total rebalance of all weapons or destroy all the variety and options.

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Considering how long it takes DE to balance weapons, are they really ready for the largescale changes to game balance this will require? People always put multishot on everything.

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Considering how long it takes DE to balance weapons, are they really ready for the largescale changes to game balance this will require? People always put multishot on everything.

I'm guessing they won't nerf/fix multi-shot until after the weapon balances.  Besides, the change is just "proposed" right now.  I'm counting on them seeing one of the multitude of posts that point out multi shot taking an extra bullet to represent the extra bullet fired being essentially another form of fire rate mod and reassessing their approach from there.  I personally felt archwing's multi shot mod was fair.  It allows for the occasional multi-shot (free extra bullet,) but it's low enough that a player can opt for something else in its place without feeling like they're strictly hurting their damage output.

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Multishot and raw damage mods (i.e. serration) need a rework because they aren't optional and thus remove a certain aspect of customization, I don't think this is a good solution though.

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Fixing multishot to do this is fine.  Any issue with ammo economy that results is not a problem with multishot, but a problem with weapons that shoot dozens of rounds per second having a maximum of 210 ammo instead of 2100 ammo.

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I think the idea behind Serration was to give a single item that you could gradually lvl up that could be applied to all weapons instead of having to lvl up each individual weapon... something that's much more time consuming that lvling up an individual weapon. It's not far from Vitality, which allows you to increase the health of ALL your warframes, regardless of them being new or not.

 

I think what they should do instead of a single "serration" mod is to add a TRUE proficiency rank to each weapon. As you lvl it up, your base weapon damage (and maybe other stats) also increase. It would effect all weapons of that class globally, and it would take a while to really rank that up. Perhaps more like a primed mod. Just... not a mod. It could be a combination of using the weapon, consuming a new unique item (like a mod) to rank it up, and have challenges that appear (sort of like mastery) that make you use the weapon in very difficult missions to further rank it up or allow it to rank past a series of benchmarks.

 

Having a single global serration like stat to show your overall weapon lvling progress would be simple enough (just make it a lvl-able stat instead of a mod), but I think having it class specific for all weapons would be more fun.

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