So Some Multishtot Proposal Math

[Carl_Bar]

Just wanted to give some raw numbers on what this would produce in terms of raw ner%&^e to some example weapon numbers.

 

Note initial values where goofed. Updated below. But first half a dozen posts talk about it. Basically it was late and i was trying to get this done before bed. Ushually lack of sleep goofiness. All fixed :).

 

First Boltor Prime.

 

Base build is 4 dual elemental, (elemental + status chance), serration, split chamber, Shred, 1 90% elemental.

 

Results:

 

Damage per 1 Ammo: 1,250.32 

Total Burst: 75,018.98

Burst Time: 4.62

Burst DPS: 16,254

Total DPS: 10,848.13

 

Now lets thrown in the change. So we take off the 90% elemental and put on ammo mutation to compensate. Here's what the numbers.

 

Damage per 1 Ammo: 520.33

Total Burst: 31,219.65

Burst Time: 2.43

Burst DPS: 12,852.09

Total DPS: 6,601.54

 

 

 

So damage per ammo has fallen 60%, as has burst total damage, burst DPS has only fallen 25%, but sustained DPS has dropped 40%.

 

Some might look at the numbers and go: Well that doesn't look any less overkill.

 

And you'd be wrong.

 

First: Whilst the ability to rapidly burst down say a lone Lancer or Tech or similar hasn't changed much, the ability to do so to Napalms, or Bombards' or Tech's, or Heavy Gunners has especially multiple in quick succession. Or gun down one and deal with notable numbers of lesser enemies has, (assuming no 4xCP). At 50 a napalm with no CP has just under 100k total EHP. Thus in the real world the sustained DPS drop is going to really, really, really matter.

 

Second: This is the Boltor Prime where talking about, arguably one of the best guns in the entire game. Running an absolute maxed out build that's not necessarily representative of what anyone not running the trial will be using, (they probably won't have forma or mods to do it), If it gets hit hard imagine how much worse it will be for the rest.

 

Third: This is for rifles. Stuff using shotgun, or especially pistol mods gets hit much much, much harder, (akabolot's take a 65% cut in sustained DPS for example).

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong i want mandatory mods fixed, but it would take a massive ammo per drop hike and some serious increases in clip size and reload speed cuts to not make this a huge nerf for every weapon out there. And some like the angstrum, khom, e.t.c. will never be the same. And i felt some math to ram that point home would help make the point about how massive a hit this is going to be.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Carl_Bar

[Mr_bunny]

That is interesting. Nice read too.

[Tyrian3k]

Can someone enlighten me how you can mod a Boltor Prime to get almost 12k damage per shot without Heavy Caliber?

Those number seem off to me.

I don't really like DE's plans for multishot, but you may want to revisit your calculations.

[Vyrn]

Your numbers seem a bit off here. Give your math a double check.

[Carl_Bar]

I'll double check it on my calculator, bear in mind thats an average number and includes average of crit.

 

brb while i do math.

[Carl_Bar]

Yep minor goof. I';d set the damage value in the excel formulae, not told it to reference the cell, was using hek base damage :p. Updating values now.

[taiiat]

it's kind've the point that you'll lose a bunch of Damage without Multishot. it's a step forwards, we'd be closer to being able to have a game that provides some challenge at all once you're an established Player.

then we can divide the Armor formula down a ways, and then we can have interesting Enemies, while still having a fast paced game. sounds good to me.

and yeah, those numbers, i.... don't know what you did there. maybe misplaced decimal points in a few of the steps.

not even Kohm or Vaykor Hek can touch the numbers you wrote, so.

nevermind.

Edited September 5, 2015 by taiiat

[Tyrian3k]

Yep minor goof. I';d set the damage value in the excel formulae, not told it to reference the cell, was using hek base damage :p. Updating values now.

Burst time is the time you need to empty one magazine, right? Boltor Prime has a 60 round magazine and a base fire rate of 10, which would become 13 with Shred.

At that fire rate, it should take about 4.5 seconds to empty one clip.

[Carl_Bar]

All fixed now.

Hmm okay let me chekc there no more formulae errors like those i mentioned,. Looks like one more may have crept in, probably when modify the sheet for the new multi-shot proposal. Yes i'm headdesking hard at myself right now ;).

[taiiat]

At that fire rate, it should take about 4.5 seconds to empty one clip.

that's true, the time it takes to empty that Magazine is 4.6153 seconds.

Magazine / Rate of Fire == seconds.

[Carl_Bar]

Okay definitely fixed this time. Trying to do this before heading off to bed and added an accidental 1 in front of shred 0.3 fire trate multiplier so it was adding 130% not 30% fir rate.

Sorr about all that. It messed up the absolutes but didn;t change the overall conclusions any. So rest is good.

[Tyrian3k]

it's kind've the point that you'll lose a bunch of Damage without Multishot. it's a step forwards, we'd be closer to being able to have a game that provides some challenge at all once you're an established Player.

Well, if that's the aim, why even keep multishot at all? Rebalancing of all weapons to accomodate the changes has to happen anyways as they said on the stream.

[Carl_Bar]

it's kind've the point that you'll lose a bunch of Damage without Multishot. it's a step forwards, we'd be closer to being able to have a game that provides some challenge at all once you're an established Player.

 

Actually it's not. The goal is to make multi-shot less must slot. But as a side effect it's going to destroy DPS, reducing the range of viable weapons.

[shut]

Okay definitely fixed this time.

You sure about that?

Removing a single 90% element is definitely not going to cut the damage down to less than half of what it was originally.

EDIT: The OP shows damage per ammo, not damage per shot. My bad!

Edited September 5, 2015 by SortaRandom

[Tyrian3k]

You sure about that?

Removing a single 90% element is definitely not going to cut the damage down to less than half of what it was originally.

Dividing it by 1.9 because of multishot will, though.

The damage is per ammo used, not per shot fired.

[Kthal]

There are a number of ways to "fix" multishot, and DE are choosing the worst. My concern is crippling things like the Vectis Prime to a one-shot clip 90% of the time, reducing the Latron to 7-8... DE's solution will hurt large magazine, high ROF weapons, but completely cripple small clip weapons where every shot counts.

 

 

If multishot consumed additional ammo, but pulled that from the reserve and not the clip, that would part-way be a decent solution, costing the ammo but not damaging the usability of the weapon. Also requires fixing enemy scaling.

 

If multishot did not consume ammo, but split the total damage around the multishot, that would work. (messy, I know, but it's better than DE's solution)

 

 

My build which is going to suffer most is my Braton Prime, which has a terrible ammo pool, which is just about manageable, and a high status build which relies on Split Chamber for the status increase. This significant hit to ammo economy and clip size will render the Braton Prime unusable.

[shut]

Dividing it by 1.9 because of multishot will, though.

The damage is per ammo used, not per shot fired.

Oh, my mistake!

[Hatzeputt]

Well it was also said, somehow EVERYONE seems to miss that, that they will also go and have a look at clip sizes and ammo reserve. So your Boltor P might end up with a 90 shot clip and some higher reserve, the Braton could end up with 100 clip, 540 reserve. Only weapon that could really be in trouble would be Vectis (p). Since we do NOT know how they are going to do it being preemptively butt hurt is pointless.  

[Carl_Bar]

Well it was also said, somehow EVERYONE seems to miss that, that they will also go and have a look at clip sizes and ammo reserve. So your Boltor P might end up with a 90 shot clip and some higher reserve, the Braton could end up with 100 clip, 540 reserve. Only weapon that could really be in trouble would be Vectis (p). Since we do NOT know how they are going to do it being preemptively butt hurt is pointless.  

 

I addressed this. Even if they modify clip size and reloads to compensate the reduced ammo efficiency will mandate slotting an ammo mutation which will hurt damage anyway.

 

Let me play around with some numbers and i'll get back to you on what they'd have to do to compensate.

 

115 clip with a 1.9 times ammo pickup multiplier would be needed to get everything back in line.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Carl_Bar

[taiiat]

why even keep multishot at all?

because shooting more bullets is cool :p

[Archistopheles]

It would be so much better if they just lower the value of multishot mods. It works well in Archwing because it's a choice, not mandatory. Having Multishot stay under 50% allows certain guns to have innate multishot the same way they have innate status chance and crit. This would allow the devs more freedom and complexity when building the stats of new guns.

[3thereal]

LEAVE MULTISHOT ALONE. It's needed for high-end content.

[(PSN)DBR87]

I was never bothered by the mandatory trifecta (quad fecta or whatever fecta you personally feel is needed) of Serration, Split Chamber, and Heavy Calibur (and Shred? Well, I guess elements are mando and crit mods for crit weapons.)

 

But the way things are looking now, the "simplest" solution is to just get rid of Multi Shot mods. Think about all the different complaints there are about weapons now like Snipers are not viable, you nerfed Boar Prime, Synoid Gammacor is unsuable (gawd that thing with multi-shot ammo consumption) to older complaints like Sicarus Prime is terrible and Glaxion is trash and Boltor Prime/Soma Prime/Tonkor is too strong.

 

Now add the multi shot consume more ammo and a massive rework of every weapon at once. I just don't think it's feasible to assume they'll get it right the first time. I don't even think it's feasible they'll have the weapon meta stay the same before Multi Shot nerf.

 

This nerf, if they even go that right, will be 2-3 updates away and I really don't feel confident they'll get it right. If Multi Shot is really that big a deal, then just get rid of it. Shot guns and pistols will no longer do 3x more damage  then they would with just serration & elements but that is a much smaller re balance work load then every firearm in the game.

 

Again, I never had a problem with "mando mods", but apparently there is a lot of people who do. So instead of screwing over every weapon and trying to fix them all think they should just get rid of it. So then next people can complain about Heavy Cal and Element Mods until we have nothing but reload speed and fire rate on every weapon. :/

[Hammahness808]

There are a number of ways to "fix" multishot, and DE are choosing the worst. My concern is crippling things like the Vectis Prime to a one-shot clip 90% of the time, reducing the Latron to 7-8... DE's solution will hurt large magazine, high ROF weapons, but completely cripple small clip weapons where every shot counts.

 

 

If multishot consumed additional ammo, but pulled that from the reserve and not the clip, that would part-way be a decent solution, costing the ammo but not damaging the usability of the weapon. Also requires fixing enemy scaling.

 

If multishot did not consume ammo, but split the total damage around the multishot, that would work. (messy, I know, but it's better than DE's solution)

 

 

My build which is going to suffer most is my Braton Prime, which has a terrible ammo pool, which is just about manageable, and a high status build which relies on Split Chamber for the status increase. This significant hit to ammo economy and clip size will render the Braton Prime unusable.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

it's kind've the point that you'll lose a bunch of Damage without Multishot. it's a step forwards, we'd be closer to being able to have a game that provides some challenge at all once you're an established Player.

then we can divide the Armor formula down a ways, and then we can have interesting Enemies, while still having a fast paced game. sounds good to me.

 

No, you fix enemy scaling at the same damn time. You don't punish endgame players with a meganerf like this with a nebulous promise to fix things later. Not when you've promised to fix even trivially fixed things like status mods being utter trash for nigh on a year and a half.

 

If you absolutely have to split the scaling and player DPS rework, you do the scaling rework first and tell players when it deploys "we know you're really OP compared to the enemy right now. Enjoy it while you can because we'll be changing it ASAP, so don't get used to it." 

 

As a nightmare raider, what am I supposed to do when it takes twice as long to kill surprise bombards who I can't CC because everything in nightmare raids drains energy and nullifier drones are common foes? Get shot off the pad that I literally can't move from without failing the mission?