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A Story Of Daggers, Dual Daggers And Stealth Finishers


Dark_Sp00n
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So we all know it: Daggers have low damage, the stances don't do huge lunges (allowing for more hits on groups of enemies), they are slow compared to their damage and supposed weight. While we could give them more lunging attacks, they would still be just as fast as bigger weapons.

 

The mod Covert Lethality was added and it's features shouldn't have been transfered to the exalted blade skill of Excalibur, but it now only oneshots on finishers, which is a serious issue with enemies turning their back to the wall, thus not being open to any finishers. One thing that would fix this is finishers being available from the front. I mean, if i am in front of them and they still don't see me, why can't i hit one of their weak spots like i could do it from behind?

 

Also, finishers are slow, they don't allow for a fluid gameplay and you can't expect to stealth finish a squad of 20 units in a single room without loki invisibility or ash smoke. Once you are detected, have fun staying hidden for half an hour until the units forget you. Added to that, some units are not open to finishers. Manics, they're invisible and immaterial until you are seen, moas, all of them. It's not useful for bossfights either, so obviously covert lethality as it is now is not the right buff we are looking for.

 

One of my ideas here is to put it back to what it formerly was: stealth hits are lethal, not just finishers. If you want to see the finisher, your choice, but if you want to do it fast, do stealth attacks. If i remember well, it only works on stealth finishers, not any other finishers, change that. Any finishers. Because those 2 warframe abilities i mentioned are the only way to get stealth hits in a mission where all the enemies know where you are, like survival or defense and it still won't allow for actual finishers.

Now the Dual Daggers: My suggestion here is to make this mod available to them. Seriously, why is this still not a thing? They're still daggers, right?

 

And final but not least. Daggers and Dual Daggers are used in real combat to get through for example medieval armor  plates with more precision, reach your enemie's anatomical weak spots or vital organs: lungs, heart, stomach, important nerves or blood vessels. Make them do exaclty that: make them go through armor and shields, or give them a higher critical chance. Maybe they could be 100% crit builds with the primed crit mod once that one comes out.

 

Anyway, thank you for your awesome game DE and big thanks to anyone who reads my topics. :3

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I don't think DE is ever going to make Covert Lethality available to 1 shot everything while in stealth, like they said, It wasn't intended to do it, I think they where aware that things like this: 

would happen, moving on I do agree on you that finisher attacks are kinda weird and slow, but you aren't losing anything by equipping CL, It's like having spoiled strike with no attack speed penalty, so It's an outright buff to daggers, having the option to kill everything ignoring their level, their armor or whatever is great, for example, if they ever release something like the escalation tactical alert having this mod equipped while paired with a full power range excalibur, so you can blind to trigger the finishers it's going to be pretty useful.

 

Edit: typos, oops.

Edited by RazrOutlaw
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honestly stealth finishers are only possible in extermination deception rescue spy, none of these missions scale further than 50 ever and a channelled stealth finisher from a dakra prime is enough to kill anything under lvl 50 except specific eximi and it will kill them a lot faster due to the WAY more fluid finisher, and moas and ospreys don't even have stealth finishers aviable, all in all longswords are much more viable stealth-wise than daggers with or without covert lethality.

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Covert Lethality buff: Make it apply to all finishers, and to all stealth hits ON ENEMIES WITHOUT FINISHERS. Equippable on dual daggers.

 

Finisher buff: Double their execution speed, or make them scale UPWARD with attack speed (no going below the base speed).

 

Done. No more Loki tickling everything to death, but Finishers in general aren't useless.

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I do agree, that making it one-shot on even stealth strikes would be a mess that we were already in, but still, no love for dual daggers?

And as he said:

honestly stealth finishers are only possible in extermination deception rescue spy, none of these missions scale further than 50 ever and a channelled stealth finisher from a dakra prime is enough to kill anything under lvl 50 except specific eximi and it will kill them a lot faster due to the WAY more fluid finisher, and moas and ospreys don't even have stealth finishers aviable, all in all longswords are much more viable stealth-wise than daggers with or without covert lethality.

Longswords are better for stealthplay than daggers, they shouldn't be. They are tank-weapons, not stealth.

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So we all know it: Daggers have low damage, the stances don't do huge lunges (allowing for more hits on groups of enemies), they are slow compared to their damage and supposed weight. While we could give them more lunging attacks, they would still be just as fast as bigger weapons.

 

You're laughably wrong. Don't open your long paragraph with such laughably wrong statements.

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You're laughably wrong. Don't open your long paragraph with such laughably wrong statements.

I see no proof of me being "so laughably wrong". Constructive criticism is always preferred to simply insulting another one's opinion.

This being said, I am curious to know why I am so "laughably wrong".^^

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I see no proof of me being "so laughably wrong". Constructive criticism is always preferred to simply insulting another one's opinion.

This being said, I am curious to know why I am so "laughably wrong".^^

Pointed wind much? Seriously wiki that stance. 400%x2... That's better than Crimson dervish, esp with covert.

I've said this a few times, 100 base damage on dual daggers is a bit broken esp as they hit an avg of 3 times per E. They'll be hitting a total of 500 damage per quick E just with one mod alone.

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Thank you for the details, chrome just destroyed my entire reply, I'm gonna try to rewrite it without any rage. :D (#forced smile)

 

So, after looking a little bit into Gnashing Payara and Pointed Wind, I think i know what I'll be talking about here, at least I hope so, I mean... the wiki is unofficial, right?^^

 

So...

The "Gnashing Payara" main combo "Cheetah's Guile" has a first hit without specification, we'll go with 100% (basic damage) x2, because of double hit. Then comes a weaker double hit, it's unspecified how much weaker it is, we'll go with 50%x2. The last one is 575%x2. This makes for the following average per "e": (100*2+50*2+575*2)/3 = 483.3% per hit.

 

The "Pointed Wind" main combo "Parting Edge" has a first hit with 0 bonus and simple hit, so 100%. The second one has 400% and is double. Then comes a 150% double hit. And the last is a 200% simple hit. We get the following calculation: (100+400*2+150*2+200)/4 = 350% per "e" in average. This seems to be less, but with covert lethality, it's 700% per hit, which is significantly more.

 

Now take into account that for the daggers it's the second hit that's boosted and for dual daggers it's the third, which means that if you get interrupted, a thing that tends to happen a lot with heavies, disruptors and google chrome, there's a higher chance, that you won't use the dual dagger boost, only it's reduction, while you will get full advantage of using the dagger. This makes for a more significant gap between the both damage outputs and brings me to the thing that bothers me most: dual daggers, while one even is a prime version, are less useful than basic daggers (,which still don't have any prime :/ ) that become stronger with easily grindable mods. (It took me 2 runs for covert lethality).

 

Finally the reason, why it would be logical to have dual daggers use covert lethality, is: They are STILL DAGGERS. The fact that you have two of them doesn't change the fact, that they aim for vital organs and are able to go through little parts of armor, thus allowing for powerful "finishers" (I'm talking real combat here, not warframe in it's actual state). Giving simple daggers that advantage over dual daggers is completely unlogical.

 

So, as discussing goes on, i notice i've been expressing myself a little bit too complicated. Summing it up, my problems are:

-Not all basic enemies have finishers. The whole Infested faction is immune to it, even though I am pretty sure they have vital organs.

-Stealth finishers are not available from the front with stealthy warframes. (Seriously, only blinded finishers are available from the front? Not Stealthy finishers? You must be joking...)

-Again, Stealth Finishers and Blinded Finishers depend on the warframe you are using and the mission type you are going into, this makes the covert lethality mod situational. But, the fact that it is a one-shot kill can make up for this flaw, as it also gives 100% damage boost.

And final but not least. Daggers and Dual Daggers are used in real combat to get through for example medieval armor  plates with more precision, reach your enemie's anatomical weak spots or vital organs: lungs, heart, stomach, important nerves or blood vessels. Make them do exaclty that: make them go through armor and shields, or give them a higher critical chance. Maybe they could be 100% crit builds with the primed crit mod once that one comes out.

-And last but not least, make that thing above an innate feature or a mod. I don't know, give covert lethality the effect that it goes through armor on every hit, instead of a one shot on finishers, maybe a stance with such an effect, anything that will allow daggers AND dual daggers to do what they are born for.

Edited by Kenketsu
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