Major Weapon Balancing Problems... How Does Nobody Talk About This ?

[(PSN)MJ-Cena7]

If you can't understand how useful the Truth effect is, and how irrelevant the little difference in DPS is, then nobody can help you understand. 

 

Do you need me to draw you a picture?

 

Fine. I'll give you a picture, posted in other whiny threads about Telos Boltor: 

 

 

 

But please, by all means, keep complaining. Then DE will buff Telos Boltor by tripling its damage and I'll be even happier. 

i suppose this is vs level 100 enemies xD but again the point is not that its weak by any means but it not different from the prime

[elele]

They should at least play differently

 

I wonder if you've actually used Telos Boltor. Yes they play very differently because you want to make good use of that Truth effect: 

 

you kill a few Heavies to get about 60% syndicate gauge, then you kill trash mobs to prevent your syndicate gauge to get full, then, when you see a big cluster of enemies, you focus kill a big Heavy, and Bam! You get a big explosion, almost like a mini Miasma.

 

There is a rhythm to this. If you care about it, you can play to its strength.

 

Also the healing effect means I can finally replace my Furis with a Secura Cestra. 

 

because if the Telos Boltor is better, now there's no reason to get the Boltor Prime.

 

Boltor Prime has higher DPS. Also not everyone is MR12 or has 125K standing. 

[(PSN)MJ-Cena7]

And that's a problem why? Soma P is another Soma. V Marelok is another Marelok. Telos Akbolto is another Akbolto. So what.

soma and any normal weapon having a variant it should be an upgrade, u shouldn't need to go back to the old. with hek and vaykor hek its a bit complicated because of the syndicate mod, but both have different stats one rely on multishot, and the other is crit based, they are build differently. but with telos boltor sure its an upgrade from the normal boltor, but thats the role of boltor prime if u already got a maxed boltor prime, why max this one it need a different role, thats my point not that either of them should be better by all means, i like both weapons. happy now ( sorry English is not my first language )

Edited September 8, 2015 by (PS4)MJ-Cena7

[elele]

i suppose this is vs level 100 enemies xD 

 

Apparently the first 50min in T4S to reach "level 100 enemies" doesn't matter to your gameplay? xD

[elele]

soma and any normal weapon having a variant it should be an upgrade u shouldn't need to go back to the old with hek and vaykor hek its a bit complicated because of the syndicate mod but both have different stats one rely on multishot and the other is crit based they are build differently but with telos boltor sure its an upgrade from the normal boltor but thats the role of boltor prime if u already got a maxed boltor prime why max this one it need a different role thats my point not that either of them should be better by all means i like both weapons

 

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[(PSN)Kosis181]

I wonder if you've actually used Telos Boltor. Yes they play very differently because you want to make good use of that Truth effect: 

 

-snip-

 

There is a rhythm to this. If you care about it, you can play to its strength.

 

Also the healing effect means I can finally replace my Furis with a Secura Cestra. 

The Truth effect would be there regardless of what weapon was chosen. Saying that it affects the play style is like saying having special bullets affects your play style. It's not saying anything about the gun.

The boltor handles exactly the same as all the other boltors. All that has changed is your targeting priority, and I have to question how valid that change is in higher level missions, when the boltors dps is actually needed. Lets face it, the boltor prime sees heavy use in t4. Switching focus to small fry while there are still heavies is kinda...

...It seems to me that the boltor prime is still gonna be the king of endless T4 missions, but for anything short of lvl 60+ enemies, the new one might be better. Of course, for less than lvl 60, I might want to use something more fun. I dunno, I'll reserve judgement.

[(PSN)Kosis181]

Apparently the first 50min in T4S to reach "level 100 enemies" doesn't matter to your gameplay? xD

maybe, but what is the point of getting there fast if you can't seal the deal?

[FelisImpurrator]

The Truth effect would be there regardless of what weapon was chosen. Saying that it affects the play style is like saying having special bullets affects your play style. It's not saying anything about the gun.

This. Although it is notable that others have said it's the other way around, that Telos Boltor is technically superior only after the enemies escape oneshot range because it has higher sustained DPS.

[(PSN)The_Shadow465]

"How does nobody talk about this?"

 

We do. Daily. Weekly. Monthly. Yearly. It's an ongoing thing that DE is, unfortunately, pretty slow about fixing. Took forever for shotguns to get buffed, and snipers are getting buffed in U18.

sniper buff didnt know about this but make vectis prime a force to be reckoned with

[(PSN)Kosis181]

This. Although it is notable that others have said it's the other way around, that Telos Boltor is technically superior only after the enemies escape oneshot range because it has higher sustained DPS.

interesting.

Forgive me my lack of pics, but I'm on the ps4, so its significantly harder for me to get them posted.

I just ran a T2 MD with the truth mod for burston prime which, unless the wiki is lying to me, should be identical to the truth effect on the boltor. This is 1k gas damage, which gets no bonus against anything in the void, deals -25% vrs the crewan and -50% against the corrupted grineer. I was underwhelmed. While most trash mobs were killed, the upper range (lvl 24-25) lancers and crewmen were coming out alive. Even some shield drones would sometimes survive (wierd, huh?). Heavy gunners were, of course, still standing.

While the void is not the be-all, end-all of missions, it is the focus of high level gameplay, which is where the Boltor prime has trqditionaly been most useful. Focusing on the proc as part of your strategy seems, under these circumstances, unwise. T2 endless missions and all t3-4 missions provide enemies of sufficient level to survive the radial proc. Its a nice bonus, and the chance to poison is nice, but making it the mainstay of your strategy?

With that part a wash for any mid to high level game play, it returns to how the gun itself handles. And it is still a boltor. A slight tradeoff in burst/sustained dps does not change the fact that this is about as vanilla a weapon as braton. Mr. Borington III, esq.

Still, there is something to be said for using someone's spine as a gun barrel.

[FelisImpurrator]

With that part a wash for any mid to high level game play, it returns to how the gun itself handles. And it is still a boltor. A slight tradeoff in burst/sustained dps does not change the fact that this is about as vanilla a weapon as braton. Mr. Borington III, esq.

Precisely. I find Boltor fun in very small doses - bring it out, pretend it's a burst weapon for a few runs and get reasonably high accuracy with it, put it back and return to whatever weird weapon I'm leveling/formaing/just pulling out for kicks today. But when it's a situation like this - Boltor II, Electric Boltaloo - this is a bigger disappointment than the Synoid Simulor initially was (before I found out how obscenely powerful it reportedly is).

 

Although I was referring to a post or two in the previous pages where it was mentioned that you don't actually rely on the Gas proc, but rather, on the Telos Boltor's massive mag size (i.e., higher sustained DPS) to keep up a stream of fire long after the Boltor Prime would have run out.

[elele]

The Truth effect would be there regardless of what weapon was chosen. Saying that it affects the play style is like saying having special bullets affects your play style. It's not saying anything about the gun.

 

And what other primary weapons have Truth? Only Burston P. And if you don't like semi-auto, you can use Telos Boltor. 

 

I don't understand how you can ignore a useful feature of a gun just because another gun also has this feature. 

 

But let's not get into pointless metaphysical arguments. 

 

Just answer this: 

 

If Telos Boltor can kill 50 enemies in an AOE but Boltor Prime can't, does Telos offer something Boltor P doesn't have? 

 

 

...It seems to me that the boltor prime is still gonna be the king of endless T4 missions,

 

When the gas proc becomes ineffective, the healing of Truth is still useful. With Telos, I don't ever need to Life Strike, don't ever need to use a Furis or Vaykor Marelok as my secondary. I can use Secura Cestra as secondary and enjoy that radiation proc.

 

I don't know about you but I will use Telos Boltor for non-4X-CP T4 missions from this day on.  

[(PSN)Kosis181]

And what other primary weapons have Truth? Only Burston P. And if you don't like semi-auto, you can use Telos Boltor.

I don't understand how you can ignore a useful feature of a gun just because another gun also has this feature.

But let's not get into pointless metaphysical arguments.

Just answer this:

If Telos Boltor can kill 50 enemies in an AOE but Boltor Prime can't, does Telos offer something Boltor P doesn't have?

When the gas proc becomes ineffective, the healing of Truth is still useful. With Telos, I don't ever need to Life Strike, don't ever need to use a Furis or Vaykor Marelok as my secondary. I can use Secura Cestra as secondary and enjoy that radiation proc.

I don't know about you but I will use Telos Boltor for non-4X-CP T4 missions from this day on.

... Wow. Totally missing the point. The point is that whichever weapon they decided to give to the syndicate, it would still have the truth effect. That's half the point of syndicate weapons. They could have given us a telos vectis, and it would still have truth effect.

Given that the truth effect would still be there regardless of what weapon got picked, why choose the boltor? I'm not, and never have, said that the truth effect is useless. What I am saying is that

A) the truth effect is garunteed. They didn't have to use a boltor as a base in order to give us truth

B) the truth effect is apparently secondary in consideration to the altered DPS (which is apparently in the telos's favor, if only slightly) at high level gameplay, which is traditionally where the boltor prime shines most. That being said, it doesn't really change the way you mod/use the telos. It's still a boltor, and fills the same niche.

C) given A&B, and the fact that boltor is a pretty vanila weapon, couldn't they have picked something more interesting?

Secondly, the 50 enemies comment? DE has been scaling back the number of enemies we see on screen at once (*cough, cough, mobile defense, cough, cough*), so 50 is an exaggeration under most circumstances. Secondly, I actually tested the truth effect, and FOUND THAT IT STARTS STRUGGLING TO KILL THINGS AT LVL 25. Given that the boltor sees the most use, and is most useful at levels well above 25, choosing it just for an effect that heals you a small portion of your BASE HP every 8 seconds or so and deals an almost negligible amount of damage is silly.

In addition, the last comment? I already got corrected on that, and accepted the correction. Im on the ps4, i have to rely on second hand info, so i think its understandable that i dont have a perfect grasp on the meta of a weapon that hasnt been releasd yet. Your comment however, has nothing to do with the substance of what you are commenting on, i.e., the DPS balance between prime and telos. You harp once again on the 'truth' effect and how useful it is, without considering the point we have been making. They could have given the truth effect to ANYTHING. Why a boltor?

To summarize the conversation, my contention is not that the telos boltor isn't usefull, but that it was a boring choice for a "telos" weapon, and doesn't give enough benefit above the prime to have been chosen just for the buffed stats. The "truthyness" of the gun cannot be used as a point of comparison BETWEEN IT AND OTHER POTENTIAL TELOS WEAPONS, as they would all have an equal amount of "truthyness."

That being said, a syndicate weapon should, to my mind, either be better at what it's predecessor did, or at the very least do something that other weapon types don't. The new penta is the same niche as the normal penta, but better. It's also a niche that is both useful and relatively thin. It is also unique in that niche by allowing us to manually detonate. The new simulor both shores up the weaknesses of the regular (clip size, blast radius and number of shots needed, iirc) but also has a unique mechanic that is fun to play around with.

The hek makes a similar change as the boltor, but pulls it off much, much better. Heck (pun intended), the only reason the v. hek loses damage per shot is because the regular hek has a syndicate mod of its own. Take that out of consideration (I've heard rumors of a nerf in the works) and the v. hek is a straight upgrade that is also easier to use.

Even the cernos, the second most questionable of the choices, takes an under performing weapon from a small class of niche weapons, and turns it into a beast.

The boltor is neither a small class, niche, unique or any other such adjective. It is an automatic rifle, wich is probably the most overpopulated class of weapons in the game. Even the quirks of flight time and ragdoll don't really affect they way you use it. Neither does the truth effect, at. Least at the levels you would really be using it. It is a relatively boring weapon that we already have a high performance version of. The telos boltor does not significantly improve upon the prime, and the boltors in general do not offer anything that another weapon does not other than raw DPS, which as discussed ad nauseum on the forums, is only really relevant at high levels.

Tldr;

In short, I find this choice to be a head scratcher. Why the boltor? Why give us a side grade of a weapon that is already pretty vanilla? Yeah, its a bit better at what I really want a boltor to do, but is that enough to justify another 6 (or however many it needs) forma build? The boltor is, in and of itself, attractive only for the DPS. The change in DPS between the two versions of the gun does not change the way I must use or mod it, nor do the new stats make the telos version easier to use by shoring up a glaring weakness. The only reason I would make the change and put in all the forma is for min/maxing my play for ultra high levels, and hasn't DE said that they don't like the fact that we meta that way?

Edited September 10, 2015 by (PS4)Kosis181

[(PSN)zanebrtn]

snip

Small correction: truth heals 25% of your total hp, making it useful at all stages of play.

[(PSN)Kosis181]

Small correction: truth heals 25% of your total hp, making it useful at all stages of play.

Ahh, my mistake. That does make it a bit better.

Anyway, as long as I am posting, and knowing my penchant for long winded rants, I thought I could summarize my argument succinctly for people new to this thread. Or anyone who doesn't want to read through it all:

New boltor is good, but a different weapon would have been more fun.

[(PSN)zanebrtn]

Ahh, my mistake. That does make it a bit better.

Anyway, as long as I am posting, and knowing my penchant for long winded rants, I thought I could summarize my argument succinctly for people new to this thread. Or anyone who doesn't want to read through it all:

New boltor is good, but a different weapon would have been more fun.

Agreed.

[(PSN)gino1313]

As far as I'm concerned, the problem with Telos Boltor isn't that it's weak.

 

The problem is that it's still another boltor. Two was enough and the Telos weapon could have been something more interesting. I think the OP wanted it to be changed to have different stat focus, and thus be modded differently and feel like not just another boltor, which I have to say I don't disagree with.

There are 3 Braton. There are 3 Paris. There are even 3 Grakata, despite some people still classifying it as crap tier. Your argument doesn't mean anything, because there is precedent. Each boltor is for a different level and different style of play.

[FelisImpurrator]

There are 3 Braton. There are 3 Paris. There are even 3 Grakata, despite some people still classifying it as crap tier. Your argument doesn't mean anything, because there is precedent. Each boltor is for a different level and different style of play.

Braton Vandal is a very limited exclusive and doesn't count. Mk1-Paris is in the special new-player-tier. The third Grakata is technically a completely separate weapon, being a secondary Two Grakata.

 

The problem with the boltors is that your statement is not particularly true. The Telos Boltor and the Boltor Prime play the same way and are for basically the same level - they don't feel like different weapons, except for the explosion.

[(PSN)MJ-Cena7]

Since when has weapon balance been a priority for call of duty?

since black ops 2 i think 

[[DE]Grzegorz]

TTK is so low everyone gravitates towards the easiest to use guns, it's not like weapon balance matters at all, lol.

It's a game of who sees who first.

 

Warframe has ever increasing TTK, coupled with both powercreep and excessive nerfs.