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Ellthan

You Know What's A Lot Of Fun? Losing 40Min Defence Because Of Bleed.

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So you're complaining about slash procs, but not toxin? Which also bypasses shields?  And if you think toxin and slash procs are unfair, what would you want to do? Remove them?

 

 

You seem to think just because it's related to RNG, it's unfair. 

 

So, getting a shtty sicarus prime receiver instead of a carrier prime carapace is unfair? Because I didn't get what I want and I couldn't do anything about it? 

 

 

That's just asinine. 

 

 

You can't cry each time you get bad luck.

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I like bleed.

 

It adds a considerable amount of actual skill to the game on several levels.  First, it adds an element of uncertainty of all situations where you're being attacked.  Instead of a simple "Pop up until my shields go down then hide" deterministic mechanic, players have to account for the possibility that you'll still be hurt before your shields go down.  Determining whether or not an action is worth the risk involved is a skill.

 

Reacting to a bleed if one is procced in a timely matter is also a skill.  Quickly noticing that you've been procced, working out whether or not it requires additional immediate measures to prevent death and whether or not, and taking those measures sufficiently quickly is itself a skill.

 

Then there's additional skill on the build level - you have to determine when kitting yourself if you have enough of a health buffer, and a recovery plan if a bleed strikes.  All this while also weighing the benefits the mod slots used would be better or extra damage, or range, or shields or whatever.   Again, this is skill. 

 

 

Works on a lot of skill based levels, and it's good for the game.

 

 

You know though, the fact that something has a random element does not mean it's not skill based.   How you deal with random possibilities is a skill in and of itself.  For example, the weather is a significant factor in baseball.   A strong wind blowing?  Completely random - yet also heavily skill based, because you have to account for that on the fly, and that is a skill.

Bleed is a slow killer not a fast killer. There is no proper way to react to bleed. Either you use an item that heals or you don't. There's no depth to the mechanic itself.

 

If you get bleed in the middle of combat, you notice it and you heal it as soon as possible if you can heal. There's nothing involving that requres planning or strategy about that.

 

Get bleed > Take cover > Heal

 

The problem with dealing randomness in itself being a "Skill" of shorts, doesen't change the fact that random is random and will not behave as expected, which means that a very careful preplan can be foiled.

 

Bleed is more akin to a bat randomly breaking a little every few balls without the ability to replace it.

 

But in perfectly controlled enviroment like a videogame randomness in combat doesen't have any excuse to exist other than arbitrary difficulty.

 

 

 

So you're complaining about slash procs, but not toxin? Which also bypasses shields?  And if you think toxin and slash procs are unfair, what would you want to do? Remove them?

 

 

You seem to think just because it's related to RNG, it's unfair. 

 

So, getting a shtty sicarus prime receiver instead of a carrier prime carapace is unfair? Because I didn't get what I want and I couldn't do anything about it? 

 

 

That's just asinine. 

 

 

You can't cry each time you get bad luck.

Toxin bypasses shields but its sources are rare and CAN be killed before they kill you. Since everyone causes bleed you can't do that with it.

 

Bleed simply shouldn't bypass warframe shields.

 

Material drops have absolutely nothing to do with how a match plays out.

 

And yes. Anything ever tired to RNG Is unfair, how could it not be unfair?

 

Anything that's not under direct or indirect controll of the players effort and input is unfair.

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But in perfectly controlled enviroment like a videogame randomness in combat doesen't have any excuse to exist other than arbitrary difficulty.

 

And this is where we differ.  Randomess doesn't need an excuse.  It has a reason.

 

It prevents the game from becoming a dull mechnaistic affair where you can watch a video walkthrough, let someone else figure out the builds and movements, and you just move and it will absolutely run the same way for you as it did for them.   It turns the game into tic-tac-toe, an equation to be solved. 

 

I do not want that.  I want the randomness.  I want my skill in adaptability to be tested, not my memorization ability.

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And this is where we differ.  Randomess doesn't need an excuse.  It has a reason.

 

It prevents the game from becoming a dull mechnaistic affair where you can watch a video walkthrough, let someone else figure out the builds and movements, and you just move and it will absolutely run the same way for you as it did for them.   It turns the game into tic-tac-toe, an equation to be solved. 

 

I do not want that.  I want the randomness.  I want my skill in adaptability to be tested, not my memorization ability.

So, your health randomly ticking down unpredictably every few shots somehow makes a and dull game suddently more interesting? Yeah... that sounds like it'd enchance the experience of a playthrough.

 

Bleed doesen't make you think or act any differently than you normaly would like I said above. You get bleed, you heal it and you move on. If you get bleed in the middle of fight nothing about said fight will change.

 

 

And you don't need randomness in combat to make the game interesting. Randomly generated maps and enemy squads are also a good source of randomness that don't interefere with gameplay and don't take control away from you.

 

If you want the game to not get stale, there are ways to do it other than punishing the player for no reason.

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Bleed is a slow killer not a fast killer. There is no proper way to react to bleed. Either you use an item that heals or you don't. There's no depth to the mechanic itself.

 

If you get bleed in the middle of combat, you notice it and you heal it as soon as possible if you can heal. There's nothing involving that requres planning or strategy about that.

 

Get bleed > Take cover > Heal

 

The problem with dealing randomness in itself being a "Skill" of shorts, doesen't change the fact that random is random and will not behave as expected, which means that a very careful preplan can be foiled.

 

Bleed is more akin to a bat randomly breaking a little every few balls without the ability to replace it.

 

But in perfectly controlled enviroment like a videogame randomness in combat doesen't have any excuse to exist other than arbitrary difficulty.

 

 

 

Toxin bypasses shields but its sources are rare and CAN be killed before they kill you. Since everyone causes bleed you can't do that with it.

 

Bleed simply shouldn't bypass warframe shields.

 

Material drops have absolutely nothing to do with how a match plays out.

 

And yes. Anything ever tired to RNG Is unfair, how could it not be unfair?

 

Anything that's not under direct or indirect controll of the players effort and input is unfair.

 

 

I'm sorry but you're just simply wrong.

 

 

I didn't win the lottery, it's unfair. And it goes with your reasoning.

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So, your health randomly ticking down unpredictably every few shots somehow makes a and dull game suddently more interesting? Yeah... that sounds like it'd enchance the experience of a playthrough.

 

Bleed doesen't make you think or act any differently than you normaly would like I said above. You get bleed, you heal it and you move on. If you get bleed in the middle of fight nothing about said fight will change.

 

 

And you don't need randomness in combat to make the game interesting. Randomly generated maps and enemy squads are also a good source of randomness that don't interefere with gameplay and don't take control away from you.

 

If you want the game to not get stale, there are ways to do it other than punishing the player for no reason.

 

I have yet to see a single random event that *someone* won't decide is punishment.  Make it randomly give you 100,000 credits for no reason, and you'll still get people claiming they were 'punished' cause it didn't randomly give them 100k credits. 

 

And if bleed didn't change the fight at all, you wouldn't have actually failed that defense you're on about.

 

I'd much rather have deal with randomness then staleness.

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I'm sorry but you're just simply wrong.

 

 

I didn't win the lottery, it's unfair. And it goes with your reasoning.

Door's that way, if you can't be bothered to make a reasonable arguement to defend your potision you have no reason to be here.

I have yet to see a single random event that *someone* won't decide is punishment.  Make it randomly give you 100,000 credits for no reason, and you'll still get people claiming they were 'punished' cause it didn't randomly give them 100k credits. 

 

And if bleed didn't change the fight at all, you wouldn't have actually failed that defense you're on about.

 

I'd much rather have deal with randomness then staleness.

First of all with 100k example, one is a negative event, the other is a positive event.

You are being punished when something happens to you.

 

Not when something possitive doesen't.

 

 

Yes, bleed killed me. Had I had brought say a medpack what exactly would have changed about my playthrough?

Every 10 minutes I'd use one. That's interesting and adds depth to combat. Pressing Y every 10 minutes and clicking on a button.

 

 

And no, bleed does not prevent the game from being stale, because its a minor event with a big impact. It doesen't affect the way you play and it changes nothing that actually allows you to adapt.

 

 

When bleed happens you don't re-evaluate your strategy and take a completely different route making the game more interesting. You just heal it.  Pressing 2 additional buttons every 10 minutes does not add replay value to a game.

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RNG already determines whether you get hit or not when you're in range to be hit.  Implementing a proc counter (imagine this for every proc?) would just make gameplay even more deterministic than it already is; you could just put down a pizza every time you're about to get poisoned/bled or escape to safety every time you're about to be Blasted.  RNG would still determine the rate at which you receive procs, but it would be even more trivial to deal with them.

And there's a buffer for the punishment of taking damage to hp: the shields. Procs have no buffer, they are a binary system in which you are either punished or not, regardless of how good your bullet dodging is.

 

You call it deterministic, I call it having a well defined ruleset that allows player input in every step, so that you are punished for your mistakes, not for having bad luck.

 

A proc system like the one I mentioned would actually open up the possibility for more powerful procs: when was the last time you cared about getting zapped or punctured? Getting set on fire is a minor setback too.

 

 

And I, too, have put aside your patronizing comment.  :P

 

My response was sarcastic.

 

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Just posting to let people know that there is a mechanic for reducing damage from status effects: rolling.  Rolling confers ~80% damage reduction, which carries over to status ticks as well.  If the proc does little damage per tick (<4) then the damage is rounded down to zero.

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Door's that way, if you can't be bothered to make a reasonable arguement to defend your potision you have no reason to be here.

 

 

I'll go where ever I please.

 

 

You can't expect every one to agree.

 

 

And my argument holds. You just don't realize that I'm applying your logic in another case.

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I'll go where ever I please.

 

 

You can't expect every one to agree.

 

 

And my argument holds. You just don't realize that I'm applying your logic in another case.

You're dragging my arguement to the extreme and applying it to a completely different sitiuation that's not even relevant nor applicable because I'm talking about random punishment when you're tlaking about random reward, then presenting as an arguement.

=

 

So, please, unless you're going to be constructive and actually planning to use your brain for an arguement, door's that way.

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You're dragging my arguement to the extreme and applying it to a completely different sitiuation that's not even relevant nor applicable because I'm talking about random punishment when you're tlaking about random reward, then presenting as an arguement.

=

 

So, please, unless you're going to be constructive and actually planning to use your brain for an arguement, door's that way.

 

Not unless you use your brain to differentiate bad luck from unfairness.

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:/

 

tl:dr

Warframe is for a large part gear based, and presents you with a LOT more "unfair" damage situations that are unavoidable then bleed procs. Besides Endless (which has no semblance of balance the longer you are in to begin with, which makes it a useless basis for an argument imo) bleed procs are directly countered by health restores (alone) as is other damage by our regen shield. Of all the things that are actually unfair, an element that is countered by tools provided isn't one of them.

 

 

Except WF has never been a very "skill based" game, much like most rpg's aren't. The whole concept of having to use healing items has long been used in many games as a means to be a drain on resources(wisdom on usage) and as a test of awareness for players(to apply when applicable). Calling it a bandaid does a disservice to thousands of games that apply them as part of a system not unlike WF. (imo, I rarely play games of over 50 min, so I never needed the use of restores, so if they don;t they should have a CD imo) 

 

As for the RNG damage = unavoidable = no skill. I'd say the very fact of getting shot is already RNG and even if all weapons were projectiles you would not be able to avoid them all either. Not being able to avoid damage isn't unfair IF the game hands you tools to deal with said damage. Or at least the basis of that concept is flawed since many games put you in positions where you can't avoid damage, with the counter being that you have tools to either negate, absorb, eliminate or incapacitate the enemy before your own demise, and/or a means to recover for next encounters where applicable. The fact we have a shield that regens already prepares us for the act of taking repeated damage, and a part of skill comes in using that fact to keep it up and avoid health damage, and health pods are there in cases such as bleed procs or toxic.

 

The biggest problem is that the way that WF(is somewhat unbalanced) scales in endless mode ISN'T BALANCED AT ALL with the rest of the game. In no other situation are bleed procs a thing that are of any major concern with the tools the game provides. So basing your statement on that is a bad start to being with.

 

Any true skill based game doesn't rely on numbers that can vary, even bullet spread adds (albeit tiny) smudge of rng that can influence an otherwise equal encounter if you want to take the purist approach.(pvp games tend to be more skill based...well..some of them anyway)

 

Fact of the matter is that a large degree of your performance is dependent on your gear, this includes health restores. 

 

Just a fun note, I've never used the rage combo, rarely use lifestrike(only on my nikana, which is far from my most used weapon), haven't touched a restore of any kind apart from trying them out, only occasionally use syn with health(not even for that purpose), and only run with regen frames on occasions.

 

Do I sometimes go down? Sure, though generally I only actually die when im solo. Long hallways and enemies swarming(from all sides) to kill you in 2 or less seconds(and they are out CC range when applicable) tends to do that. There are a lot of situations in WF where it's unavoidable to take damage and die simply due to the nature of the maps, ranged combat and swarms of enemies. No amount of skill will save you when can't kill or cc the enemies that are about to shoot you faster then you can counter. Having to deal with multiple enemies from multiple angles is already "unfair" and will get you killed sooner or later *especially solo*. This just becomes even more obvious the longer you go into endless mode.

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Health restores are widely available... life strike and rejuv being the easiest ways of getting your health back are easy to get if youve played long enough to get a rare mod or 2 to trade. If you've played long enough to fight an enemy that does enough damage with a bleed proc for it to actually matter you should most definitely already have and be using these things. I've never really had a problem with bleed ever killing me if anything ive been killed by toxin a whole lot more. Seriously equip life strike on your melee weapon its one mod and it will completely solve your problem of ever dying to bleed.

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Do you want RNG to decide your fate without you having any input in the outcome? Great, let's implement "Tenno aneurysms": a 0.5% chance every 5 seconds to lose 500 hp. You can heal back, you can drop with Trinity, you can use Hysteria, so it's not a problem right?

 

 

Only when you get hit with radioactive proc. And you need to lower the damage a bit. That would be cool.

 

 

Every game mechanic that punishes the player needs to have a skill based counter. And a counter isn't healing afterwards. That's a fix.

 

Every mechanic needs a counter but these counters i dont like dont count.

Come on, man.

 

 

A counter would be for example having a proc bar that fills up: you'd have an indicator of when you can get a status so you can take cover or decide to push on. A fair mechanic that requires split-second decision making.

 

Why dont you make believe the bar is full at all times?

That bar is not going to stop you from being shot at all angles and getting hit with a proc when filled.

 

 

You can't stop all of them with all frames, therefore, RNG decides.

 

If you are playing solo bring something that can.

Do you folks not equip yourself different for different tasks?

 

 

No, I want all mechanics to be fair. I want to bleed and say "it's my fault", not bleed and say "welp, that one stray bullet got lucky".

 

It was your fault for getting hit.

You lost shields and now health.

You seem to be fine with losing shields when getting hit, what's the issue with health?

prepare for that like you prepare for shields.

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1.) My issue is that bleed is an arbitrary mechanic that adds nothing to the experience and is fake difficulty. I've said this a million or so times and the response is always "You can get a bandaid"

 

2.)Yes it lowers the damage. It doesen't block the damage. It slows your death, it doesen't stop it.

 

3.)Um. Bullets are hitscan. So, yeah.

 

4.)Here's the thing, with the osprey, you can adapt the way you play to counter it. With bleed you don't alter the way you play, you only alter your loadout.

 

5.)I have 1000 shields and roughly 800 health. I don't stand, I move and jump around. Bullets are hitscan, I can't dodge them, I get hit, I take cover to replenish my shields and my health still takes damage.

 

 

 

1- Bleed is there so people dont just load up on shields, that's obvious and not arbitrary. And you can the counters whatever you want but they are there. If you choose not to take them that's on you.

 

2- Yes, that's what it does. What's the problem? Not every counter is going to stop something 100%

 

3- Enemies are not aimbots.

 

4- You are not constantly evading when you play?

 

5- What frame were you playing with? Were you soloing? Again, enemies are not aimbots, they have to successfully target you first. And while you are taking cover you could use a health restore. Why not use it? I was just using the Supra on one of these proxy defense missions and i saw that i was going to end up running out of bullets and you know what i did? I dropped an ammo restore instead of complain that enemies dont drop enough ammo.

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Every mechanic needs a counter but these counters i dont like dont count.

Come on, man.

 

I gave a perfectly logical explanation: if it doesn't PREVENT something from happening it's not a counter, it's a remedy.

Sure Iron Skin works, but it's not global now, is it? It's not a mechanic, it's a single frame's power.

 

Why dont you make believe the bar is full at all times?

That bar is not going to stop you from being shot at all angles and getting hit with a proc when filled.

 

Because I don't get procs 100% of the time, do I?

The bar is a buffer. All games have buffers as mechanics. They are what gives you a respite before you are punished.

 

If you are playing solo bring something that can.

Do you folks not equip yourself different for different tasks?

 

So I have to play ... what? 3 or 4 frames? Great. Counters only exist when using 1/6th of the characters, that's amazing.

 

It was your fault for getting hit.

You lost shields and now health.

You seem to be fine with losing shields when getting hit, what's the issue with health?

prepare for that like you prepare for shields.

 

Can't avoid 100% of the shots -> therefore getting hit isn't the player's fault.

I can't possibly make that any more clear.

 

Shields are a buffer for health, losing health should be the real punishment, yet we can lose and regain hp so easily the health bar became simply "more shields". Other games have it right: nothing ever goes through shields because health is the thing that's hard to regain, it's where damage hurts. It's what drops when you screw up. In Warframe the concept of regenerating shields and health under them is meaningless. All to make one mod viable, instead of revamping it.

 

 

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Shield Ignoring Damage makes Health matter.

it's there for a good reason.

now, is there a lack of Skill based ways to earn Health back? yes.

but having Shield Ignoring Damage is critical for balance in Warframe.

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Only when you get hit with radioactive proc. And you need to lower the damage a bit. That would be cool.

 

 

 

Every mechanic needs a counter but these counters i dont like dont count.

Come on, man.

 

 

 

Why dont you make believe the bar is full at all times?

That bar is not going to stop you from being shot at all angles and getting hit with a proc when filled.

 

 

 

If you are playing solo bring something that can.

Do you folks not equip yourself different for different tasks?

 

 

 

It was your fault for getting hit.

You lost shields and now health.

You seem to be fine with losing shields when getting hit, what's the issue with health?

prepare for that like you prepare for shields.

1.) What?

 

2.) The other procs DO have a counter. Stand behind cover and wait for them to end while your shield takes the damage. If you do that you will take absolutely no health damage.

 

3.)Because when the bar gets half full you can sit behind cover and empty it.

 

4)Why would a player have to limit themselves to a select few items to counter something that's everywhere?

 

5.)How many times do we have to say that a problem isn't fixed by a bandaid? Randomly taking damage with no way to counter is is bad, no mater if you can patch it or not.

 

6.)Its @(*()$ hitscan. How many times do we have to say that its hitscan.

 

 

1- Bleed is there so people dont just load up on shields, that's obvious and not arbitrary. And you can the counters whatever you want but they are there. If you choose not to take them that's on you.

 

2- Yes, that's what it does. What's the problem? Not every counter is going to stop something 100%

 

3- Enemies are not aimbots.

 

4- You are not constantly evading when you play?

 

5- What frame were you playing with? Were you soloing? Again, enemies are not aimbots, they have to successfully target you first. And while you are taking cover you could use a health restore. Why not use it? I was just using the Supra on one of these proxy defense missions and i saw that i was going to end up running out of bullets and you know what i did? I dropped an ammo restore instead of complain that enemies dont drop enough ammo.

1.a.)Ok, let's assume people DO stack up on shields. So what?

 

1.b)Seing as health packs are avalable stacking up on shields isn't a real problem if you craft a bunch of them is it?

 

2.)That's the point of a counter? Being able to stop something bad entirely assuming you put in enough effort.

 

3.)No, but they have hitscan.

 

4.)I am but for the 100th time they have hitscan.

 

5.)BECAUSE THEY HAVE HITSCAN, how many times do we have to say it?

 

And again, the ability to restore health is a bandaid to the bleed which is the problem, its not a fix to it.

Shield Ignoring Damage makes Health matter.

it's there for a good reason.

now, is there a lack of Skill based ways to earn Health back? yes.

but having Shield Ignoring Damage is critical for balance in Warframe.

So, the fact that shield can be depleted and you can lose your health that way doesen't make health mater enough?

Not unless you use your brain to differentiate bad luck from unfairness.

Are you seriously calling randomly losing health from bleed procs bad luck? Really?

 

So, what if you have good luck you can go through an entire high level grineer mission WITHOUT taking a single health proc?

 

Even more so, it's supposed to be a measure of SKILL, why should LUCK play any part in this?

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Health restores are widely available... life strike and rejuv being the easiest ways of getting your health back are easy to get if youve played long enough to get a rare mod or 2 to trade. If you've played long enough to fight an enemy that does enough damage with a bleed proc for it to actually matter you should most definitely already have and be using these things. I've never really had a problem with bleed ever killing me if anything ive been killed by toxin a whole lot more. Seriously equip life strike on your melee weapon its one mod and it will completely solve your problem of ever dying to bleed.

Those are merely remedy to a problem, not a fix for it.

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Those are merely remedy to a problem, not a fix for it.

I mean, a remedy and a fix are essentially the same thing. Heck, you could even argue that they're synonyms.

 

Also, hold on. Your complaint is that it's uncounterable, after you identify several things that counter it but then decide you don't want to do?

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This is eight pages of a guy complaining that you die when you take too much damage.

 

How do we let these things go on?

No, this is eight pages a guy complaing about a horrible mechanic that purely reliant on RNG and has nothing to do with skill.

 

 

I mean, a remedy and a fix are essentially the same thing. Heck, you could even argue that they're synonyms.

 

Also, hold on. Your complaint is that it's uncounterable, after you identify several things that counter it but then decide you don't want to do?

No, they aren't. Remedy is something you do after a problem to aleviate its effects and a fix is preventing the problem all toogether.

 

This case the problem being taking damage due to pure RNG.

 

Its uncouterable in the meaning that you have no way to prevent it from taking your health damage not in the way that you can heal it later.

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So, the fact that shield can be depleted and you can lose your health that way doesen't make health mater enough?

no. for 2 Years Players just went with Shields. even on Health durable Warframes, everyone still used Shields.

with this Damage System, there are two Damage Types that have the capability to Ignore Shields.

now Health matters, just like Shields do.

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