Dethcube And Why He Should Not Be Nerfed.

[Lamentz]

Ok, so with the release of Dethcube, we see a similar occurrence as the release of Vauban. He is super popular. Everyone likes him. There is very little wrong with him, and he's actually pretty good.

Now, the history of gaming dictates that such a feature of a game MUST be balanced, and rightfully so. However, what I hope that DE realizes, is that a PvE driven game does not need nerfs if it is feasible to buff everything else to that level.

Let's think about it for a second. In LoL for example, if a champion is too powerful, a counter is found. If a counter cannot be found because the champion is just way too powerful, it receives a nerf. In such a way, imbalance is not necessarily a bad thing. Just like the Dread bow can score incredibly high crits against infested, but it is pretty weak when used against either of the other two factions (no armor ignore). The weapon might be considered overpowered against the infested, but its uselessness against the other factions makes that ok, because it still promotes using different weapons for different purposes.

Now take Ironskin (I'm not going to say whether it is in a good place right now or not because that's not what this post is about). Originally, Ironskin was useful literally everwhere. It could ignore any and all damage, and provided immunity to knockdowns. Plain and simple. Overpowered. This is a kind of imbalance that must be nerfed, because there is nothing that can overcome its power.

Ok, back to sentinels, the point of this discussion. Sentinels are not OP, not even Dethcube. Just because he is better than the other two right now doesn't mean that he should be targeted for a nerf like an overpowered ability should.

Right now, Dethcube is pretty good. He can do decent damage (for a sentinel), he has a useful and functional ability, and he is absolutely adorable (ok, that might not be a balance issue, but still, look at that twitchy little guy).

Wyrm on the other hand is not very useful. His damage is laughable unless he has the absolute best mods available to him, his ability doesn't work, and basically everyone hates him.

Shade is good, but only for utility. His damage is pointlessly low, however his ability is good for escaping tricky situations, and before Dethcube, he was top of the pack in terms of popularity.

Now, about balancing the sentinels. What I propose, is that instead of nerfing Dethcube down to match the other two, the other two should be buffed to match Dethcube. I'm not talking flat damage, I think that Dethcube has that covered. Here are my proposed methods of making Wyrm and Shade more appealing without making Dethcube obsolete.

 

Wyrm:

• Fix his stun ability already... seriously... this is just silly.
• Give him another ability that acts like Rhino's current Ironskin. Make him taunt all enemies to attack him, and also give him damage reduction to withstand the hits.
• The new Wyrm is a support tank. He can stun enemies for you to make short work of, or he can just make them all attack him instead, drawing the punishment away from you. Wyrm would not be used for his damage, but for his utility.

Shade:

• Make his stealth last until after the first melee hit, so that you can have one shot of that awesome melee crit damage.
• Have him use an ability to Banshee's sonar, except single target. This would create crit spots on enemies that deal extra damage if struck. (Edit: This should be taken with a grain of salt, as it may very well render Sonar useless against bosses, unless the weakpoint is confined to only the player who used it).
• The new Shade is a pure support. He can make you invisible, or create targets for you to do extra damage to. Shade would be taken by people that enjoy micromanaging their damage. The ones who are fixated on getting the highest damage numbers no matter how complicated their methods.

Dethcube:

• Right now, Deth is in a good place. However, I would give him another ability to match the other two as well.
• Give Dethcube a damage/attack speed steroid. This would be a random burst of damage. Nothing huge, but enough that you would appreciate every time it pops.

 

 

Those are my thoughts and ideas on the situation, tell me what you think.

 

 

TL;DR: Wyrm and Shade should be buffed to Dethcube's level in their own way.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Lamentz

[VieuxPappy]

Thinking exactly like you. Really good ideas too for Wyrm and Shade!
+1

[Zyfe3rX]

DE: damn that looks hard, we better nerf stuff rather than buff something. It What we are best at, nerfing....

[wertandrew]

Sounds like a plan to me, good ones bro.

[Symbiont71]

You totally have a good point with buffing Shade and Wyrm instead of nerfing Deth.

 

And for God's sake, people...fix that Wyrm stun already...silly is not powerful enough to describe the situation...

 

+1, mate

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Is there a nerf planned? I'm in the same boat as you and hope not. I'd like to share my opinion on the topic as well.

With regards to the Dethcube it does have plenty of disadvantages on its own already. I mean the winding up of the fire rate is one vs. wyrm which opens fire instantly. The way I have my wyrm modded with fire rate and cryo rounds along with the usual damage mods, it pretty much stuns/slows down any enemy that approaches, and yes the firepower isn't there but as far as a sentinel it's good enough help. The wyrm with fast hands (I don't really know if the mod does anything, but seems to) allows it to target one after the next whereas the dethcube must wind up again.

The shade in itself isn't mean to be an attack sentinel at all, but benefits from it. I've seen loki users pretty much stay invisible for 70% of the mission with one and for soloing it's probably the best sentinel to use. The Dethcube almost works against you, when you're in a place where you're overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of the enemy, as it fires immediately alerting them. So if you're planning to slip by the enemy the Dethcube really doesn't work.

I feel that the sentinels are in a good place. I'd like for the shade's cloak to have a bit more range for activation, and sometimes it glitches leaving me uncloaked even when an enemy isn't alerted and nearby.

The banshee type ability you suggest, well I don't know if that's a good thing. I like each warframe having unique abilities, when I finally got my Rhino this weekend and started to play him I was a bit disappointed at the overlap between his abilities and Excalibur's. This is a team game, and if there's a Banshee present in team it's nice to know that the player will probably activate sonar when fighting a boss, etc. If we take that away from Banshee, then soundquake is the only thing she has available to make her unique.

[VelenoHargreaves]

There is another thing about Shade that DE has taken away from it, the invisibillity after the Stealth Attack where multiple targets were close to each other... IMO that was a huge break down on any good attempt on Stealth Melee in this game, which is a joke already...

[Memnarch]

Something else to consider about the Deathcube. It's Squishy. tap tap tap and dead unless you beef it up mightily

Kinda Glass-Cannon-ish

[Lamentz]

@sushidubya

 

I see what you're saying. But as it stands, the Dethcube does noticeable damage, the Wyrm does not. While yes, the Wyrm can have cryo rounds and will slow enemies, that is just a mod. It is not unique to the sentinel. You can do that too.

 

As for Dethcube attacking enemies that you want to sneak around. Don't use Dethcube if you have any intention of sneaking, same goes for Wyrm. I don't like sounding like a $&*^, but if you take an aggressive sentinel, then you need to be prepared for that. Plain and simple.

 

Whether or not Sentinels are useful right now is an interesting topic because we don't know how powerful DE intended them to be. If they are meant to apply elemental effects, give you insignificant stealth, stun enemies, and vaporize weaklings every once in a while, then yes, they are in a very good place (well, when Wyrm's stun gets fixed that is). However, I feel that Sentinels are supposed to add another layer to your playstyle. The Wyrm is supposed to attract attention of enemies and negate their attacks against you. This isn't very apparent right now. Shade is supposed to make you sneaky, but the completely random nature of the stealth doesn't allow you to play around it. Dethcube is the only one that is "working as intended " in my eyes, because his purpose is so simple. Do damage, kill enemies, shoot mah lazer, etc.

 

Your last point called out the biggest flaw with my suggestions. Yes, having a Banshee ability on a sentinel would essentially render Sonar useless, but again, these are suggestions. I am not a dev, and these are probably not going to be implemented anyways, but I will add your point into the post.

[chotofish]

Good thinking +1

 

Right now the sentinels are a little bit too useless (I'm looking at your Wyrm)

[Dasmir]

Good thinking +1

 

Right now the sentinels are a little bit too useless (I'm looking at your Wyrm)

 

*Shade*

[ArcSynder]

*Shade*

 

You crazy man. I love my little perma invis friend. 

[V0LK]

Nah, Shade and Wyrm(Crowd Control, will it work some day?) are pretty bad, so DeathCube will be nerfed too.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

Completely agree with OP, +1

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

@sushidubya

 

I see what you're saying. But as it stands, the Dethcube does noticeable damage, the Wyrm does not. While yes, the Wyrm can have cryo rounds and will slow enemies, that is just a mod. It is not unique to the sentinel. You can do that too.

 

As for Dethcube attacking enemies that you want to sneak around. Don't use Dethcube if you have any intention of sneaking, same goes for Wyrm. I don't like sounding like a $&*^, but if you take an aggressive sentinel, then you need to be prepared for that. Plain and simple.

 

Whether or not Sentinels are useful right now is an interesting topic because we don't know how powerful DE intended them to be. If they are meant to apply elemental effects, give you insignificant stealth, stun enemies, and vaporize weaklings every once in a while, then yes, they are in a very good place (well, when Wyrm's stun gets fixed that is). However, I feel that Sentinels are supposed to add another layer to your playstyle. The Wyrm is supposed to attract attention of enemies and negate their attacks against you. This isn't very apparent right now. Shade is supposed to make you sneaky, but the completely random nature of the stealth doesn't allow you to play around it. Dethcube is the only one that is "working as intended " in my eyes, because his purpose is so simple. Do damage, kill enemies, shoot mah lazer, etc.

 

Your last point called out the biggest flaw with my suggestions. Yes, having a Banshee ability on a sentinel would essentially render Sonar useless, but again, these are suggestions. I am not a dev, and these are probably not going to be implemented anyways, but I will add your point into the post.

Oh no. I think you misunderstand my post. I agree that the Dethcube shouldn't be nerfed, because it HAS weaknesses, such as not being able to be used in a stealth situation. In other words it IS NOT overpowered. In essence this game should benefit from UNIQUE qualities of each weapon, warframe and sentinel loadout. The synergy between your teammates should be what gets you that mission complete.

What I was trying to do was illustrate the differences, strengths and weaknesses between the 3 sentinels and offer an opinion on one of your suggestions (the Banshee one) that's all.

I agree that the other sentinels should be revisited. I still maintain that the Wyrm is very useful to me in that it fires almost instantaneously slowing down multiple enemies, albeit at medium range only. The Dethcube has great range, but takes longer to wind up like the Gorgon. These balances are very similar to the different guns in game, assault rifles, machine guns, pistols, etc.

Me? I can't wait till the next sentinel is introduced to see what DE has up their sleeves.

[Amistyrja]

Wyrm and Why He Should be Buffed please

[Estred]

Skipped to the bottom of the thread, my only request is dumb down the stupid thing's sound effects. I can't hear things over that stupid barrel-spin.

[fauxhb]

Wyrm:

• Fix his stun ability already... seriously... this is just silly.
• Give him another ability that acts like Rhino's current Ironskin. Make him taunt all enemies to attack him, and also give him damage reduction to withstand the hits.
• The new Wyrm is a support tank. He can stun enemies for you to make short work of, or he can just make them all attack him instead, drawing the punishment away from you. Wyrm would not be used for his damage, but for his utility.

i simply love your wyrm suggestion! i was late to the party, as i got my sentinel very well past mastey rank 4. i didn't want stealth, so i naturally chose wyrm. i have nothing against him, and i see a ton of use with him, when equipped with multishot/stun/elemental, but his ability must be fixed.

[YellowJacketXV]

Everything OP said was good, it does kinda follow the "holy trinity" of class archetypes for the sentinels, but it would allow some better options.

However, seeing the choices that DE did in the past, I wouldn't be surprised if they just follow the same "Blizz-Nerf" routine that is common everywhere in gaming and just nerf the damage of whatever seems OP.

 

But of course, buffing items takes time and work and no one wants to do that, even if it is your full-time job that people pay you for.

 

In all honesty if DE follows a Blizz-Nerf route I'll probably just uninstall.

[Ghotil]

Yes.

[neKroMancer]

I think Shade is fine as it is. Wyrm is the one that requires a large buff as an offensive pet. He lacks...everything. Poor damage, CC does work but has very little effect on enemies.

I say fix crowd dispersion- make the radius larger and actually stun/debuff the target for a few second would be fine. Shade is for stealth but your suggestion is a bit OP imo. He is good as is.

[Tulzscha]

On a related note, do the Swift Deth and Vaporize mods ever drop from enemies? I've been playing a good bit over the past two days and it's never dropped so far. Oh well, I just upgraded them with my gazillion extra precept mods for Wyrm and Shade.

[Lamentz]

On a related note, do the Swift Deth and Vaporize mods ever drop from enemies? I've been playing a good bit over the past two days and it's never dropped so far. Oh well, I just upgraded them with my gazillion extra precept mods for Wyrm and Shade.

I've gotten Vaporize out of a Void mission once. That's the only one I've seen in the field.

[BleuNoir]

I say we should buff Crowd Dispersion, make it sphere based, increase the range, make the stun a bit longer, and increase the damage to make it noticeable, but not overkill.

 

Crowd Dispersion does nothing right now.

 

1+

[Tulzscha]

I suppose they only drop from Void missions then. Kind of odd if that's their intention.