RealPandemonium Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) Fireball with 212% power strength, 6.25 energy cost: 400 [base damage] * 2.12 [power strength] * 5.3 [Accelerant bonus] = 4494.4 4494 * 4.5 [total damage with DoT] = 20224.8 20224.8 * 2 [headshot multiplier] = 40449.6 This is to the main target on direct hit. The secondary targets caught in the AOE will take: 150 * 2.12 * 5.3 = 1685.4 The AOE will almost certainly headshot: 1685.4 * 2 = 3370.8 The subject of the direct hit will take this damage on top of the direct hit damage for a total of 23595.6 damage on a bodyshot or 43820.4 on a headshot. The AOE will deal 3370.8 * 4.5 = 15168.6 to the secondary targets if they burn, which is 50% chance. So the AOE damage deals 3370.8-15168.6 damage to secondary targets, averaging 9269.7 damage. Any non-robot who burns will be stunned fora few seconds; Chargers for 2, Infested for 3, and humanoids for 4 seconds. All in all, not bad for 18.75 energy (Accelerant and one Fireball.) Paper arguments. Those numbers doesn´t hold any truth in real game environment. First it´s somewhat hard to gain a headshot with fireball from mid/long range distance because of possible moving targets plus tiny hitbox and fireball is exploding on hitting any surface, second when in close range you will most times not use fireball, third the energy is most times better suited for other spells. Fourth, those numbers represent raw damage and not calculated damage with armor etc. 1. That's not something I have a big problem with, since I've practiced and understand that it can be worth it to line up those hits. 2. Why not use Fireball at close range? That's when you can land that headshot reliably, and you can do it completely hands-free. 3. 6.25 energy is nothing, and you don't have to dedicate an action for it because the cast doesn't interrupt you. 4. Armor severely limits every damage type that doesn't mostly ignore it. The vast majority of damage types thus suffer this problem; that's not Ember-specific, but an issue with Grineer. Heat will do less against Corpus shields, but that's it when it comes to specific disadvantages. Edited September 25, 2015 by RealPandemonium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)freakytiki3 Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 Desecrate is worth more than 10 Embers at the same time. Good thing there can't be 10 of them at once, that would be a disaster... Desecrate is literally only needed for campers in survival and keeping nekros alive, thats about it Hydroid. Outside of farming for loot he is COMPLETELY USELESS Imo. You think he is good at CC ? Other frames do it much better. he heals allies with his pool augment ? we have trinity for that. so hydroid is now a lonely frame gathering dust in everyone's inventory agreed and don't even start on the random spawn locations of the tenticles, An anemy at point bland range and the whole swarm spawns on the ceiling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealPandemonium Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 Desecrate is literally only needed for campers in survival and keeping nekros alive, thats about it agreed and don't even start on the random spawn locations of the tenticles, An anemy at point bland range and the whole swarm spawns on the ceiling Unfortunately, some people only care about what a frame can do for them, instead of what they can do to excel with that frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omnimorph Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) ill sum up everyone's opinions. "OMG ember is the worst". "hydroid is far more useless" "oberon doesnt excel at anything" "lul mag" "rhino+soma=n00b" facts - all frames can go to the 2nd c rotation without being downed or failing the mission. and without being carried. on any tier. period. you need specific team-ups to get to any other c rotation further than the second, and that isn't because those frames are better, they just have good synergy with other frames. great team ups exist outside of using trinity, and/or frost and/or mesa and/or nova. - too many children playing this game farming draco chilling in recruiting channel looking for trins and mesas. i could care less about what their opinion is of this game or the content because of how many hours they spend cheesing and not playing the game. - it's ok for frames to be great with certain mission types and enemy types, and not as useful for the others. Too true. Anyone who says Ember, Mag or Oberon (to my experience, can't speak of the others being thumbed down here) aren't viable up to T4 40/40 are simply showing their ignorance. And if they insist on beyond T4 40/40 as being some kind of standard against which things should be judged, they're digging themselves an even deeper ditch. This is what happens on forums: people just repeat things because they've heard it from some other half-assed buffoon, and they think it makes them sound cool and knowledgeable, whereas actually it just shows them up. Edited September 25, 2015 by Omnimorph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoidNomade Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) Fireball with 212% power strength, 6.25 energy cost: 400 [base damage] * 2.12 [power strength] * 5.3 [Accelerant bonus] = 4494.4 4494 * 4.5 [total damage with DoT] = 20224.8 20224.8 * 2 [headshot multiplier] = 40449.6 This is to the main target on direct hit. The secondary targets caught in the AOE will take: 150 * 2.12 * 5.3 = 1685.4 The AOE will almost certainly headshot: 1685.4 * 2 = 3370.8 The subject of the direct hit will take this damage on top of the direct hit damage for a total of 23595.6 damage on a bodyshot or 43820.4 on a headshot. The AOE will deal 3370.8 * 4.5 = 15168.6 to the secondary targets if they burn, which is 50% chance. So the AOE damage deals 3370.8-15168.6 damage to secondary targets, averaging 9269.7 damage. Any non-robot who burns will be stunned fora few seconds; Chargers for 2, Infested for 3, and humanoids for 4 seconds. All in all, not bad for 18.75 energy (Accelerant and one Fireball.) Is this also a reliable build or just a show off for damage calc? 1. That's not something I have a big problem with, since I've practiced and understand that it can be worth it to line up those hits. 2. Why not use Fireball at close range? That's when you can land that headshot reliably, and you can do it completely hands-free. 3. 6.25 energy is nothing, and you don't have to dedicate an action for it because the cast doesn't interrupt you. 4. Armor severely limits every damage type that doesn't mostly ignore it. The vast majority of damage types thus suffer this problem; that's not Ember-specific, but an issue with Grineer. Heat will do less against Corpus shields, but that's it when it comes to specific disadvantages. 1. I didn´t said it´s not possible. What i said though are the problems one WILL encounter when trying to reliable headshot with fireball. Something that you want to negate with saying "I´m very good with ember" So bare with me when i find your argument in this case void. When this would be the case you would see embers all around head hunting everything - i wonder why this isn´t case. I doubt it´s because most players aren´t able to use the mouse properly. 2. Because in close range you rather will use Ac, WoF, FB because the game is WF and most of the times we encounter masses of enemies and ember is somewhat squishy so most times you don´t go around and try to snipe things with fireball in close quarter combat but use the more reliable AOE capabilities of her 3. Let´s assume we don´t have energy pods, flow and no trinity. You want and will safe those for Ac and WoF in most situations. 4. It´s still a variable for damage calcs that i am missing Edited September 25, 2015 by VoidNomade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadwire Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 mag lel woot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoopypit Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 I love Oberon: he's my most used frame. I won't deny that his healing is worse than Trinity, but at the same time Loki and Nyx (the other main source of confusion/removing Ancient auras) can't heal and can't take a hit whatsoever. His diversity is his strength, and his diverse kit has skills that can be used enjoyably because they're designed for front line action. Hydroid is one of the few cases in game where he is OBJECTIVELY bad. I don't care how skilled you think you are--if your Tentacle Swarm spawns stupidly (and we KNOT it will spawn stupidly) then you just contributed zilch to the team. He can support the team with proc-heal and healing, but he has to take augments for that--something Oberon does not. You can't argue that Hydroid is good with just skill alone: his kit is broken and has serious issues. Banshee is a frame that has huge potential and requires great skill to use, as opposed to the ROFLstomp of Loki, Nova, and Excal. I am going to defend hydroid a little bit. admittedly, he does need a tweak. but i have some things to add. - tentacle swarm isn't as crappy as most people think. if you actually aim your reticle at a group of enemies, most tentacles will populate under an enemy. one thing people dont think about, is that his 1 works well when coupled with his ult. cast them at the same time in defense, and watch how well it works. - his 2 is one of my favorite powers in game. the knockdown is great, and works well for going through doors that have enemies in the way, also making it easier for allies to get through. - i never use his 3. just for lulz when waiting in extraction. it's a decent oh S#&$ button when you're out of shields but that is about it. - his 1, again, is good when using it with other abilities. personally, it needs some loving from DE, because it isn't quite reliable enough. but it is cheap to cast. having said all this, you need natural talent. you absolutely need it. along with...rush. quick mobility with fast-casting makes hydroid decent for support as well as completely wrecking chokepoints (which all of his abilities do well) ill be honest, he isn't the easiest frame to use. you cant just hit 4 and win all day. you can't scrub it up with him. you actually have to move around and use his powers to your full advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autongnosis Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 I think this is relevant: are you guys familiar with the concept of skill floor and ceiling? In Warframe the predominant system is that of high skill floor and medium ceiling. There are some exceptions, where innate sinergy between frame, build, weapons and companions can significantly raise the ceiling. There are some frames and weapons that have a different model, which is to say a low floor high ceiling model. In my opinion among those we can find things like: - ember, terribly useless if in unskilled hands, an asset when used by a guy who knows his S#&$ - oberon, has very few strenghts, he also has very few weaknesse and a skille player can make the most out of its kit to be a brutally good offensive support - volt is decent enough with the standard shieldspam mindset, but in the hands of a competent player he can be a much bigger asset - twin grakata, the terrible ammo economy is a hit in their effectiveness unless you give them to a skilled shooter who can make the most of punchthrough, in that case you can get insane damage out of them and it benefits of its $&*&*#(%& damage without having he guy running out of juice every other second Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)See Creature866 Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 I don't get the Ember hate, I always kill as Ember in infected missions. There's a reason you get different loadouts, they're for fighting different enemies. Obviously some frames handle some enemy factions better than others, and Ember is just one of those frames not much different from Mag. They're not dedicated to their favored enemy, but they're noticeably more useful against them.But hey, Ember (and Hydroid for that matter) are two of my most used frames, so I'm not going to get in the way of the people trying to give her a buff. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)mindsoulja Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Only frame, I'd say is Limbo or Zephyr limbo yes but zephyr is the best tank in the game by far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkRuler2500 Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 Hydroid (nothing good except at Loothydroid) Zephyr... after parcour 2.0 her mobility abilities are just a waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealPandemonium Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 Is this also a reliable build or just a show off for damage calc? It's a standard strength/efficiency build that works for most frames: http://goo.gl/s6ZQTs 1. I didn´t said it´s not possible. What i said though are the problems one WILL encounter when trying to reliable headshot with fireball. Something that you want to negate with saying "I´m very good with ember" So bare with me when i find your argument in this case void. When this would be the case you would see embers all around head hunting everything - i wonder why this isn´t case. I doubt it´s because most players aren´t able to use the mouse properly. 2. Because in close range you rather will use Ac, WoF, FB because the game is WF and most of the times we encounter masses of enemies and ember is somewhat squishy so most times you don´t go around and try to snipe things with fireball in close quarter combat but use the more reliable AOE capabilities of her 3. Let´s assume we don´t have energy pods, flow and no trinity. You want and will safe those for Ac and WoF in most situations. 4. It´s still a variable for damage calcs that i am missing Well, when I give feedback or discuss a frame's traits I assume that we're talking about competent players who have standard things like mods and restores, etc. You can estimate the actual expected damage based on enemies' health types. If the enemy is Grineer, you can estimate how much less damage you'll deal from their level value. You can do more precise calculations with the formulas from this page: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemy_Level_Scaling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoidNomade Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 You don´t need to give me the link for the wiki when you should have needed this when you showed off that calc. No offence. Mabye you want to say something more than "i assume things"`to the points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypernaut1 Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) im glad the the "Ember is horrible" echo chamber is finally starting to break apart. Hopefully the "Carrier is the only useful companion" echo chamber is the next to be busted. Edited September 25, 2015 by Hypernaut1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealPandemonium Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) You don´t need to give me the link for the wiki when you should have needed this when you showed off that calc. No offence. Mabye you want to say something more than "i assume things"`to the points? No offense was intended; I post links to the wiki in case readers are inclined to click on them as they go through the thread. The rest of the points are moot for actual Ember players, thus that response. If this comes down to "frames should be balanced based on no mods/equipment" then the answer there is obviously no. Edited September 25, 2015 by RealPandemonium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)abb12355 Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 Hydroid (nothing good except at Loothydroid) Zephyr... after parcour 2.0 her mobility abilities are just a waste. You clearly don't know what duration mods on Zephyr are. Tailwind can go significantly farther then any frame can dream to achieve with bullet jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altey Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 Limbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripletriple Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 im glad the the "Ember is horrible" echo chamber is finally starting to break apart. Hopefully the "Carrier is the only useful companion" echo chamber is the next to be busted. It hasn't. I don't know where you got that idea. People still won't take random embers in their party/raids. Two fixes to Ember that would instantly make her viable is change her accelerant to buff all elements and remove duration from the ulti. Done, people want Ember again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealPandemonium Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 It hasn't. I don't know where you got that idea. People still won't take random embers in their party/raids. What kind of horrible people are you guys finding who actually screen their groups? I've never had an issue with this. I pretty frequently have to deal with people who lack fundamentals and are too scared to actually face adversity, but that problem arises when they're already on the team during the mission, and not when I'm joining it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Xewkeryx Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 Rhino Roars once, he's good, his teammates are good for a good half-minute. All's good. Ember splashes Accelerant over one group, her powers are better for that particular group. Not good for the next. Burn energy recasting, repeat for next group. All's not good. Please make Accelerant good. Or make her powers good without it. Pretty please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypernaut1 Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 It hasn't. I don't know where you got that idea. People still won't take random embers in their party/raids. Two fixes to Ember that would instantly make her viable is change her accelerant to buff all elements and remove duration from the ulti. Done, people want Ember again. People wont take most frames in their raids, but I rarely have trouble joining groups with Ember. Players in game aren't half as uptight as players on forums. The most I get is someone asking "you're taking Ember?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Pharen Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Limbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarTemplar Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Only frame, I'd say is Limbo or Zephyr Limbo? I can see that, unless they made him not suck since last I checked, which was a while ago admittedly Zephyr though? lolno. she's a high mobility tank when played right. I donno, normal Loki? I mean why would you wanna run that, when the Primed version is SO much better looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YasaiTsume Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Limbo. Even after tweaks, he finds no place in Warframe strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 This topic is a fine example of what warframes players can't use properly and who are those players Remember young tenno, it's the player that matters and his ability to turn the warframes into great tools of destruction and fun. We are always newbies at a certain point in time. Keep playing and maybe one day you will be able to use <insert warframe name> I was going to argue why "x" warframe is good, but this is something that players need to find out themselves. Ill agree to your point to a degree, However there is a clear power difference in some warframes... How many times was oberon buffed... In a row? Frost and excal got reworked... Im expecting valkyr and ember to be next Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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