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Psa: Toggled Abilities And Drain

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but wut about the mod the reduce duration?

 

they will rise energy drained?

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but wut about the mod the reduce duration?

 

they will rise energy drained?

 

Yes, the energy will be drained faster.

Incidentally, is this change live as we speak, or in 17.5?

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Essentially, it will make Fleeting Expertise worthless. You gain efficiency, but lose duration - which is the same as losing efficiency. However, if you substitute Primed Continuity for Fleeting Expertise, you'll have almost as much efficiency.

 

Only if you consider it by itself.  If you take Fleeting Expertise & Primed Continuity you'll get a lower cost per second than Streamline & Primed Continuity.  Not by much though, about 1 energy saved per 10 seconds.

 

Taking things to extremes:

Primed Continuity, Constitution, Narrow Minded, Streamline:

 

3*0.7/1+1.82=0.74 per second

 

Primed Continuity, Constitution, Narrow Minded, Streamline, Fleeting Expertise:

 

3*0.25/1+1.22=0.34 per second

Edited by Katinka
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ok, something bother me....

 

trmpest barage and tentacle swarm... from when are they toggled abilities?

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HOLY **** YEAR OF QUALITY IS FINALLY HERE

 

Thank you based DE this is the best thing I've ever read

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So my specific build for Equinox that gave up duration for Efficiency is now completely useless? As is the time I spent to 4-forma Equinox?

 

.___.

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My question is: Will using Fleeting Expertise simply... cancel itself out?

 

  • Drain-Per-Second and other adjustments has been made on the following Toggled Abilities:
    • Hydroid can now recast Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm with no cooldown.
    • Nyx’s Chaos no longer has a cooldown, and enemies affected by Chaos cannot be stunned by additional casts.

 

... Not... actually toggled, but appreciated nonetheless.

Edited by Archwizard

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Really need confirmation that negative duration causes increased energy drain, or if duration is only allowed to have a positive affect on energy drain.

If negative duration causes toggled abilities to drain MORE energy, doesn't that make Fleeting Expertise absolutely worthless for frames with toggled abilities? The negative duration would absolutely cancel out the increased effeciency?

Edited by weezedog
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I think that DE's idea of balance in this is that by having to retain more duration you have to sacrifice other stats, so you can't get all the str if it's going to kill your efficiency. But then the problem is that it will most likely impact frames that have very little use for duration (probably because the only skill that uses it sucks or still works just fine with less duration) in a negative way.

Some frames aren't OP because they require certain mods that end up toning them down to a balanced state (which is Ember's case), but if they don't have have that limitation they are easily exploitable.

Another problem is when frames doesn't use range at all and use duration and str, which will greatly benefit from this, perhaps too much.

This sounds like an amazing buff for Chroma that satisfies the large energy drain of Effigy. With Streamline and 254% duration, he should hit only 130% efficiency for his buffs, but max efficiency for Scream and Effigy (only 2.5 energy a second). 

 

Basically, you no longer have to choose either all buffs, all Effigy, or awkward middle ground. He'll still be less of a team player than most frames, but with the ability to keep Effigy out for very large amounts of time, he can help hold an area.

 

Currently doing the math on Equinox, and oh man she is gonna be complicated to mod. Night form #3 is technically a toggle with 16m radius, but Mend/Maim is 36m radius at 5 e/s, so you'll have to carefully manage your range.  You can stun everything in high levels too far away to see on Void defense but have your strongest damage reduction from Pacify have a large radius, or shrink Maim to stun enemies in perfect spots for shotguns while having an almost useless Pacify/Provoke...this change will make Equinox very hard to mod, but also very capable of being tailored exactly to players tastes. I personally run only a Stretch on mine and go to wave 60 of T3D while either nuking every wave or so, or keeping Bombard damage in the double digits when they're near-ish to the pod, and this change with duration affecting toggle efficiency (I usually run at 67%) is shaking not only Equinox, but many frames. I've had a notepad and pen out for the last half hour and I'm loving it.

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I hope you take a look at Effigy. I feel that its energy drain is far far excessive for what it does.

 

I realise I sound ungrateful, nothing could be further from the truth. Thank for these changes.

Chroma lovers (like myself) should be fine, as we usually run high duration builds; this'll let us drop Fleeting for Streamline, have our buffs be kinda pricey but VERY long, while Effigy could potentially hit the efficiency cap with just Streamline.

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I think that DE's idea of balance in this is that by having to retain more duration you have to sacrifice other stats, so you can't get all the str if it's going to kill your efficiency. But then the problem is that it will most likely impact frames that have very little use for duration (probably because the only skill that uses it sucks or still works just fine with less duration) in a negative way.

Some frames aren't OP because they require certain mods that end up toning them down to a balanced state (which is Ember's case), but if they don't have have that limitation they are easily exploitable.

Another problem is when frames doesn't use range at all and use duration and str, which will greatly benefit from this, perhaps too much.

That... doesn't answer my question at all. I'd already considered this and other things for both possibilities to the answer for my question- which remains: "Will efficiency mods still affect toggle abilities as well?".

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  • Duration Mods now have an effect on toggled Abilities.
    • For example: Mods that added 100% duration will make a 10 Energy drain become a 5 Energy drain.

-DE_Adam

 

So what does this mean for Fleeting Expertise is it effectively a 0 sum gain on toggle abilities?

Edited by lZerul

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Positive Efficiency makes the drain ticks take less Energy away.

Positive Duration makes the drain ticks occur less frequently.

That makes sense, but how are you positive about this? (Pardon me if I'm going full derp, I'm rather tired atm).

Edited by Stratego89

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Chroma lovers (like myself) should be fine, as we usually run high duration builds; this'll let us drop Fleeting for Streamline, have our buffs be kinda pricey but VERY long, while Effigy could potentially hit the efficiency cap with just Streamline.

 

Oh certainly yes, I'm not saying we won't be fine. I just thinking of how Effigy performs in comparison to other abilities, for example WoF will do anywhere between 800 and 1800 damage per second, for a cost of 3 energy. On the other hand Effigy can only manage 400 damage per second for a cost of 10 energy.

 

WoF does more than double the damage for less than a third the cost. 

 

There's also the case of players leveling the frame, perhaps after just getting it or just after forma'ing it, no room for all the mods necessary to hit the efficiency cap and stuck with a high cost, low yield ability.

 

I'm sure Effigy will be better after this, but it still needs to be mentioned that the 10 energy per second cost for it is extortionate compared to other abilities.

Edited by DeMonkey
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Disclaimer:

Have not read thread.

  • Duration Mods now have an effect on toggled Abilities.
  • For example: Mods that added 100% duration will make a 10 Energy drain become a 5 Energy drain.
Alright, while mechanically different that does work out the same as my suggested 'duration affects tick frequency' without the needed new code.

Works for me.

[*]Nyx’s Chaos no longer has a cooldown, and enemies affected by Chaos cannot be stunned by additional casts.

(゚ヮ゚)

Cannot 'Hell to the YES!' this enough.

... Stop. Breathe. ... Okay.

Now, after the initial OHMYGODYESSSS! has passed:

- Will it refresh the Chaos effect on them?

- How will this interact with Chaos Sphere?

Warning: Theorycraft.

I've been asking that Chaos Sphere change to 100% duration (and not shrink) since it was implemented. Doing that would have given players the option of modding for duration and actually using Mind Control (possibly with the Mind Freak augment).

But with Chaos being recastable, uptime isn't your primary concern anymore; coverage is. Which runs counter to using Narrow Minded.

While I'll have to play with this for a bit to be sure, ... Hmm.

* How will this interact with Efficiency?

Say I put a rank 4 Fleeting Expertise on my frame, and nothing else. That's +50% eff -50% duration.

What's my effective efficiency? Is it 0% (+50%-50%) or is it 25% (1*1.5*0.5)?

Ugh. This could get complicated. (e.g. Yeah, probably shouldn't use Transient to buff Mind Freak...)

I very much hope that the UI will accurately present the effects of this change.

...

Well, that kinda short-circuited where I was going with this.

Expectant for an answer.

Edit: About the Mend/Maim change.

First blush - 'Holy boop, that's gonna be OP'.

On reflection - I'm actually not so sure.

Full disclosure: This Equinox has become my go-to for Grineer/Infested Medallion hunting. (And nothing else).

Transient's there because 'why not', may as well get that much more slash damage.

Unless Eff + Dur are additive (which I doubt), R4 Fleeting + R9 P Cont is only 50% effective eff. (Yes, adding Streamline puts you back at 75%.)

Power Str only affects the slash/DoT. The damage stored/done derives solely from HP of units-killed-inside-its-radius.

Now, for me, I'll just change to this and call it a buff day.

But anyone who wants to actually use anything besides M/M?

That Strength penalty from Overextended is going to force you into a bunch of juggling.

That doubled range is really going to come in handy for you when you decide to slot that Narrow Minded (since it's either that or remove Overextended).

Edited by Chroia

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Big question; is Pacify a toggle or no? It drains nothing until you get an enemy in range, then the drain is based per enemy in the radius (.5 energy per enemy); do the duration changes affect this or no?



Oh certainly yes, I'm not saying we won't be fine. I just thinking of how Effigy performs in comparison to other abilities, for example WoF will do anywhere between 800 and 1800 damage per second, for a cost of 3 energy. On the other hand Effigy can only manage 400 damage per second for a cost of 10 energy.

 

WoF does more than double the damage for less than a third the cost. 

 

There's also the case of players leveling frame, perhaps after just getting it or just after forma'ing it, no room for all the mods necessary to hit the efficiency cap and stuck with a high cost, low yield ability.

 

I'm sure Effigy will be better after this, but it still needs to be mentioned that the 10 energy per second cost for it is extortionate compared to other abilities.

If my idea of having Vex Armor (both Fury and Scorn) apply to Scream and Effigy was applied, I don't think I would ever touch another frame. Plus, then Effigy would actually stay alive above level 60-70 (lower than raid levels), while being able to put out decent damage (with max strength and Fury buff, Effigy wouldn't even scratch 6k DPS, hardly game-brekaing). Can we make Vex Armor applying to Scream/Effigy a thing already? 

 

Plus with Firequake, WoF already does a better job than Effigy at CC.

Edited by Magneu

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What's the downside of this? lol The mend and maim range buff seems unneeded.

Probably to counter the effects of Narrow Minded (reduced range). Personally I think World on Fire and Spectral Scream need it more, since they already have pretty short range. All in all changes are appreciated^^

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This sounds like an amazing buff for Chroma that satisfies the large energy drain of Effigy. With Streamline and 254% duration, he should hit only 130% efficiency for his buffs, but max efficiency for Scream and Effigy (only 2.5 energy a second). 

 

Basically, you no longer have to choose either all buffs, all Effigy, or awkward middle ground. He'll still be less of a team player than most frames, but with the ability to keep Effigy out for very large amounts of time, he can help hold an area.

 

Currently doing the math on Equinox, and oh man she is gonna be complicated to mod. Night form #3 is technically a toggle with 16m radius, but Mend/Maim is 36m radius at 5 e/s, so you'll have to carefully manage your range.  You can stun everything in high levels too far away to see on Void defense but have your strongest damage reduction from Pacify have a large radius, or shrink Maim to stun enemies in perfect spots for shotguns while having an almost useless Pacify/Provoke...this change will make Equinox very hard to mod, but also very capable of being tailored exactly to players tastes. I personally run only a Stretch on mine and go to wave 60 of T3D while either nuking every wave or so, or keeping Bombard damage in the double digits when they're near-ish to the pod, and this change with duration affecting toggle efficiency (I usually run at 67%) is shaking not only Equinox, but many frames. I've had a notepad and pen out for the last half hour and I'm loving it.

It depends on how the duration thing work. It could be a benefit only, meaning that it can't affect abilities negatively, so they still only use efficiency numbers if you don't have any duration benefits. Like I said, could, we don't fully know how it works.

But I believe that it's only meant to work with toggle abilities, and Chroma's buffs aren't toggles. But Effigy will probably benefit a lot.

I actually went with both in my Chroma, but then Effigy still makes it problematic since it eats your energy rather fast and soon you will be struggling to keep all buffs and Effigy active, so this change will make that better. (In excavation Effigy is really useful in closing choke points, but then I can't use buffs all the time, and people get angry if I die, which usually only happens when I'm reviving someone else and don't have energy left for buffs, it does make you look bad, but it's because people can't see that your pelt is actually keeping a ton of enemies away from that tile.)

 

I actually dabbled into some formulas to make some abilities have a better energy cost, WoF actually (such formula was only for toggle abilities that used duration as well, not for the ones that didn't use it, since those didn't have any energy problem), which was impacted negatively in the energy section when the drain was added to it. I don't find duration to be bad in Ember, I actually find it good because it keeps her balanced without being easily exploited, and her actual problems aren't related with duration, but actually that energy problem I just mentioned and armor, armor is her big problem as it kills her damage, and even if you remove the duration from WoF, it will still be terrible against anything with armor that isn't at low levels. Duration just makes it so she couldn't be a psudo Mesa that trades DPS and range for no LoS (and this makes it so enemy damage isn't a problem because you can hide), heat procs, mobility and able to buff her own damage, but now she can do that, so she no longer needs to be active, or even any human input as it's easy to script her without duration. Meanwhile her energy problem seems like it will be fixed, but her damage, no matter how many str mods you use, will still be terrible against non low level armored targets, and it's not really worthy to make her problematic if you are not even fixing her actual problem.

 

 

Equinox change is... silly. Pacify does need changes (to how it works), and Pacify/Provoke would be better with more range, Mend, kinda too, but Maim, it doesn't really need more range, if anything it will be a bigger problem at low levels, kinda Viver Tier problem. Too much range on Maim will actually affect it in a bad way, you will be able to nuke further away, but you won't be able to make full use of that stun anymore, because most things will be outside of your LoS. That's actually a problem for me, since one of the reasons I run maim, is because her damage reduction is terrible, so it's better to stun enemies and reduce their HP, and more range will make it hard for that to work for me (because I have a range mod to increase the range on other abilities as well). You either stop using the stun as efficiently and buff the range on other abilities, or lose the range on other abilities to use that stun. We are kinda of needlessly losing things here (even though it seems like we are getting things, which in truth it's relative in the end) rather than improving what really needs to be improved (like Pacify).

Another problem is how Ancients eat a lot of your stored damage when you go nuclear. More range will make this a bigger problem, as with that much range you can't see where the ancients are and kill them before using the nuke, again, you get something you lose something, you can store energy faster, but you will also lose more damage if ancients are around and you don't kill them.

Edited by Sorrow0110

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That makes sense, but how are you positive about this? (Pardon me if I'm going full derp, I'm rather tired atm).

 

I read it on Reddit, but now I've re-read the first post of this thread, I'm not too sure of my assertions now.

 

Whoops.

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From the way it seems to function from this post the duration affect efficiency like this.

 

Base cost / Total sum of duration

 

 

That means at 40% total duration your efficiency in percent would be

 

100%/40% = 2.5 times

 

Fleeting Expertise total bonus would be

 

100%/40% * (1 - 0.6) = 1

 

So yeah. Fleeting Expertise cancels it self.

 

 

New age Nyx build?

 

U26p1zt.jpg

 

Used to have some survivalbility mods but now I need full time ability modifiers mods.

Edited by -CM-igo95862

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So how is thins going to impact Mirage's Prism?  It has a fixed duration (that can be ended early) and has drain.

 

Meaning that this change if it does effect Prism will be put the cost of a low duration, long range Prism build through the roof.  Essentially nerfing it hard and close to killing the point of that build.

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