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weezedog

Major Nerf: Negative Duration Increases Energy Per Second Consumed On Toggled Abilities

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YES. YES. EVERYONE CRY! your tears i long to bathe in! 

 

on a serious note, your telling me toggled abilites as they were are ballanced? at least now if you use corrupted mods, it does what they are supposed to do. weak the abilites but make em stronger in other areas. 

 

as apposed to, just make them stronger. i duno what you people are complaining about. ballance is good because it leads to a varity of builds being used, not just a set 1. 

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Usualy if you have and eff and range build it also means you have lots of damage. So on continuous abilities you're practically a walking tank that can stay up unless killed. Which is bloody hard to do outside of particular late game situations. With this change it stops players with these builds from staying in that ability state indefinately with zero downsides and loads of damage.

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I came here and saw people were complaining that the change hurts build diversity. Funny thing that their so called "argument" for this is that now they actually have to change their builds? The audacity! How dare you DE!?

 

I think I'll actually like these changes.

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This was a kick in the face to both Ember and Mesa. ​

 

Yes it has pros but more cons. Having duration on Mesa was a nice touch so that you can use both 2 and 3 + occasional 4. But the 4 is already useless so no need to build for that (I can't see the ring they were talking about). Excalibur gets this right but he still won't be able to use 1-3 as much because you can't max out efficiency.

This update was jam-packed with good and bad stuff so I don't know how to feel about it.​

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Eh I use ember and my world on fire does .84 cost, I don't remember the exact stats that I have, but just by looking at the nerf it seems like you can get pretty efficient with just continuity and streamline now, basically the same as putting FE on, except the only downside is that it takes 2 slots (though I can't really think of that many situations where negative duration is good, and in the few that I can they aren't toggled abilities)

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I understand that this nerf was to balance the game.

 

but it ended up hurting very players who put forma in its frames because we have to completely change our build focusing on duration,

most of my frames with toggled Abilities is focused on efficiency will be required to put forma again.

 

I wonder if the DE will help somebody like the players (eg through some event) to facilitate the changing of the build.

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This is just as I thought.

 

So now frames have the same amount of diversity as before, only do you use Fleeting and Transient for fire and forgets or duration for toggles?

 

This really didn't help at all, imo. I bet Atlas is just fine though, as he seems to be built around this.

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This change did nothing but nerf Equinox and Ember.  It's really disappointing to see a frame in need of buffs, Equinox, get nerfed like this and to see Ember get nerfed just as they fixed one of her major problems.  Excalibur's Exalted Blade, Chroma's Effigy, and Mesa's Peacemaker aren't affected by power range so Narrow Minded would have no downsides on any of those.  The extra 99% duration would act as an additional 49.5% efficiency then Streamline would provide the extra 30% to go over the 75% efficiency cap.

 

Ember might be okay since they also reduced the cost of World on Fire to 3/s but Equinox is still at a drain of 5/s.  Maim was in a good place before.  It provided some CC, some low damage, and could eventually build up enough power to kill anything in range but didn't just wipe the map every time you pressed 4.  The range decrease from Narrow Minded would destroy every ability Equinox has except for her 1.  Rest/Rage need range to be more than single target CC.  Pacify/Provoke, but especially Pacify, MUST have range to even be worth casting.  Mend needed a buff and didn't even get the passive effect we've been asking for since its release.  It most certainly didn't need a nerf.  Maim was a perfect ability and in no way needed to be nerfed.

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There really isn't any positive upside to this change. No frame has 4 toggle powers, every frame that has toggles is a mix of toggled and non-toggled abilities. So yes you can use duration to increase the effeciency of toggles, but then all your non-toggled abilities have no effeciency. Then when you add Fleeting Expertise to increase the effeciency of all your other abilities you destroy the effeciency of your toggles.

Builds that include efficiency and duration together are not effected, but every other kind of build on frames with toggles is completely screwed.

This change is simply an attempt to force people into not using corrupted mods, mods DE created in the first place, mods that are at the very heart of the problem. If you want people to not build around a single ability then get rid of the corrupted mods, instead you jacked up your mechanics so that frames with toggled abilities suffer yet all other frames without toggles has no change at all.

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The amount of salt in this post is unreal...

 

I actually really like this change. it makes chroma's abilities finally not collide with each other and makes you think if you really need fleeting expertise. do note that fleeting can still be effective when combined with narrow minded. the only downside is the range.

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The amount of salt in this post is unreal...

 

I actually really like this change. it makes chroma's abilities finally not collide with each other and makes you think if you really need fleeting expertise. do note that fleeting can still be effective when combined with narrow minded. the only downside is the range.

 

I hope that you can consider how other frames can handle this change other than just Chroma.

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I hope that you can consider how other frames can handle this change other than just Chroma.

 

I do have other frames that use toggled abilities like equinox but i found that i can deal with fleeting expertise not being a mandatory mod.

 

This change will change some build and make others unusable but it finally makes using fleeting expertise a CHOICE rather than it being used on every build.

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Joke is duration is now mandatory for toggle frames if you want to get any use out of Fleeting Expertise.

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This change will change some build and make others unusable but it finally makes using fleeting expertise a CHOICE rather than it being used on every build.

 Mind you that there is no choice if the current, nearly mandatory playstyle is spam cheap abilities as much as possible. Sure, you can choose how you want to be more efficient, but people will always choose efficiency itself.

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I do have other frames that use toggled abilities like equinox but i found that i can deal with fleeting expertise not being a mandatory mod.

This change will change some build and make others unusable but it finally makes using fleeting expertise a CHOICE rather than it being used on every build.

You are completely forgetting Transient Fortitute and Blind Rage, it's not only Fleeting. This change makes those mods unusable on frames with toggles as well. It really has a huge negative effect on corrupted mod combinations (using corrupted mods together to offset the negatives) in general.

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You are completely forgetting Transient Fortitute and Blind Rage, it's not only Fleeting. This change makes those mods unusable on frames with toggles as well. It really has a huge negative effect on corrupted mod combinations (using corrupted mods together to offset the negatives) in general.

While they are not completely unusable, they still have heavy consequence of usage to compensate for their superiority over normal mods.

 

I do however see your point that in order to use one you need to use all to compensate, And I think that while this change is a step in balancing corrupt mods it still need tweaks to have more build diversity.

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You are completely forgetting Transient Fortitute and Blind Rage, it's not only Fleeting. This change makes those mods unusable...

 

Not quite unusable, but certainly unstable.

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Just get rid of FE instead of nerfing frames across the board if you're that booty bothered about it. This is awful, and hard to even balance when you're trying to mod frames. I'm still trying to crunch the numbers and trying to balance efficiency and duration for the same power is awful. And, regardless, trying to strike that balance means you're losing another, very necessary mod slot(strength for me).

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Funny part is, I was actually using all abilities on my Excalibur. But now I had to sacrifice 3 abilities for 1, isn't that what DE tried to prevent? ironic.

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Joke is duration is now mandatory for toggle frames if you want to get any use out of Fleeting Expertise.

So you were expecting there to be no downsides for halving all energy costs?

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I loathe this change. It has zero positives for any of my builds and positively eviscerates high Power Exalted Blade builds.

 

Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad if there were more ways to get your hands on Efficiency, but there bloody well isn't.

 

Please revert this horrible, horrible change. Until we have some goddamn choice in how to reach the Effciency cap, all that is being accomplished is dragging down every bloody channeled power in the game and their associated frames.

 

If channeled powers are too strong they should be properly nerfed, not hamstrung by a change to the mod system.

 

Basically, this. 

 

I am fine with Fleeting having some downside on Channeled powers. Provided, of course, that HAVE an alternative to Fleeting Expertise for reaching max efficiency. 

 

Which we dont. 

 

And even if we bloody well did, DE would probably force us to run yet more Derelict missions to get it. No thank you; Derelicts and their associated 4-person Vault runs are terrible, boring, repetitive chores and we desperately need more entertaining methods for getting Corrupted mods. 

 

The INTENTION with this change was to make Fleeting Expertise have a drawback even on Channeled abilities. I get that and I understand WHY it was done. I do.

 

The actual, real RESULT of this change, was to make every frame with toggle abilities FUNCTIONALLY WORSE than frames without them. Which further resulted in our needing to build EITHER around Duration abilities OR Channeled abilities, but NOT both. 

 

Warframes are supposed to be tools. Weapons of war. Ergo, the abilities on a frame should have synergy. And right now that mostly does not exist, when you have SACRIFICE the usefulness of 50% of a frame's abilities to maximize or improve the potential of the others. Case in point: Nekros/Atlas. One ability that cares about Duration, out of 4. And modding to make the other 3 useful, reduces the usefulness of the Ultimate. 

 

Basically, we NEED a mod that can help with efficiency, without reducing Duration. Even if it reduces something else, we need an alternative to Fleeting Expertise.

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While they are not completely unusable, they still have heavy consequence of usage to compensate for their superiority over normal mods.

 

I do however see your point that in order to use one you need to use all to compensate, And I think that while this change is a step in balancing corrupt mods it still need tweaks to have more build diversity.

 

Corrupted mods already had a heavy consequence of usage on all your OTHER abilities. That's the price you were paying for building around 1 ability. Generally the whole point of using corrupted mods was because the negative effect of the mod DIDN'T affect the ability you wanted to focus on. You are boosting one ability at the cost of your others. However if the negative of the corrupted mod is going to affect ALL of your abilities, then there isn't any point in using it because you don't gain nearly enough to justify giving up the mod slot. At that point you are way better off using a non-corrupted mod. 

 

 

The INTENTION with this change was to make Fleeting Expertise have a drawback even on Channeled abilities. I get that and I understand WHY it was done. I do.

 

The actual, real RESULT of this change, was to make every frame with toggle abilities FUNCTIONALLY WORSE than frames without them. Which further resulted in our needing to build EITHER around Duration abilities OR Channeled abilities, but NOT both. 

 

Basically, we NEED a mod that can help with efficiency, without reducing Duration. Even if it reduces something else, we need an alternative to Fleeting Expertise.

 

Basically this. This is what Primed Streamline was supposed to do.

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It's okay that Duration affects toggle abilities, but what's with that scale? Efficiency penalty on negative duration is much higher than efficiency bonus on positive duration. Why the hell is that? Just give us normal linear scale like "±X duration = ±0.5*X efficiency" with caps on both sides probably.

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Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad if there were more ways to get your hands on Efficiency, but there bloody well isn't.

 

This.

 

There's many more ways to get duration, not so much for efficiency. Especially how using fleeting expertise is like shooting yourself in the foot, now. I like how DE did this change to "make all abilities useful", meanwhile corrupted mods basically ensure you cannot do this.

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