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weezedog

Major Nerf: Negative Duration Increases Energy Per Second Consumed On Toggled Abilities

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Y'all think this change is bad. Wait till multishot comes. DE messed with all of our Warframe builds. Now our weapons will be getting that same treatment.

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From what I have been gathering over the last few days, only the people who really min/maxed to the extreme are having problems with the changes. Those who rely heavily on neg duration builds etc. There is nothing wrong with them but those builds arent required in any gameplay to date.


 

Yes this was a slight nerf to those that use extreme neg but it hasnt made a single frame "Useless" your build might be useless now but not the frame itself.

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I made a thread regarding how the changes affected Ember and results were very satisfying. I also included the formula how you can min-max it. Here's the link https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/537751-feedback-on-ember-changes-including-a-good-build-and-efficiency-formula/

 

It should work on most frames that got affected by the changes. It might made the other OP frames abit weaker but that's called "balance", DE is heading the right way. I might be too repetetive but negative duration STILL works fine, you just need to make use of the new formula that needs 90% efficiency from maxed Streamline and Fleeting Expertise.

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I support this change a lot. Fleeting expertise has been waiting for a downside like this for a long long time.
 

Of course it will face criticism, as many of the players do not expect changes that affect their "current build", which is ridiculous. If any new changes of the game won't affect the so called "current build", one can say there is no change at all, don't even mention about progress. Find out how to work out your build after the implementation of the new mechanisms. 

 

Many people only judge a change good if it favors their build, while judging it bad when it goes against. I find this really self-center, superficial and loathing.

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This is stupid, DE should have implemented this change after revamping the whole energy system as a whole. There is no way to effectively earn energy yourself but having to rely on rng orbs, consumables, limbo and EV trinity seriously DE this needs to be fixed.

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I simply do not care. I have been doing balanced builds since forever. So many tears from people who spam 4 or E..

so you play without a good build right thats what your saying? because thats cool bro i did that for a long time too but one day i woke up and started to realise

 

good builds are the ones that work.

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This is really sad,

 

> Thread has maths
> Gets ignored

 

I keep saying that you can still keep max efficiency even with negative duration but no one listens and continues arguing pointlessly. *facepalm*

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This is really sad,

 

> Thread has maths

> Gets ignored

 

I keep saying that you can still keep max efficiency even with negative duration but no one listens and continues arguing pointlessly. *facepalm*

this is the internet we dont need no logic round these parts

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this is the internet we dont need no logic round these parts

Then I hope they could at least read the TLDR parts ... I also put a 2nd TLDR for maximum spoonfeeding.

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 This isn't even a 'balance' change, this is punishing efficiency for lowering duration.

I'm impressed. Ever bothered trying to backread abit? Put maxed Streamline and Fleeting Expertise on your build and you will still get capped efficiency on your toggable and other skills even with negative duration, there's no punishment for lowering duration there.

 

Just try to understand the changes first and don't jump the gun like how other people did. Let's not increase the number of people who can't brain what's actually going on.

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Just try to understand the changes first and don't jump the gun like how other people did.

 

 Yes, after two days of testing and changing builds I was used to for several months, only have their energy consumption upped so I have to sacrifice other mods to fix it, is clearly 'jumping the gun'. 

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 Yes, after two days of testing and changing builds I was used to for several months, only have their energy consumption upped so I have to sacrifice other mods to fix it, is clearly 'jumping the gun'. 

Then your testing and changing builds is wrong and have led you to wrong conclusion. Read the whole formula I gave on the thread I linked then perhaps you could finally see how the changes aren't so bad as people are saying it to be.

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Y'all think this change is bad. Wait till multishot comes. DE messed with all of our Warframe builds. Now our weapons will be getting that same treatment.

No, not all. Only certain 4 to Win frames. Sorry for making you press more than 1 button.

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so you play without a good build right thats what your saying? because thats cool bro i did that for a long time too but one day i woke up and started to realise

good builds are the ones that work.

Good builds? On what. Remember that only toggables are affected. Let me see...Excalibur, Mesa, Equinox, Banshee, Ember, Nyx. 3 of those frames are bad if built only for the ultimate. Excal can tolerate duration builds, as does Equinox and Mesa. Ember is meh anyway.

Sorry, but if you mean with "good builds" a one trick-pony build, you have quite a different concept of good build than I do.

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So when one extremely specific build for one specific power kills all the other abilities while making that ability the only viable one, the solution is to leave it alone. Got it. 13.5/10 best logic.

There's not supposed to be an overall objectively best build for any frame. Your choices on what mods to put in are what's supposed to make the build the "best". Sure, you wouldn't mod for shields on a Valkyrie, but you wouldn't mod for armor on more than half of the other frames either. You're supposed to have several choices on what to build and why.

Because I choose to sacrifice 2 of my abilities to make one powerful. Like I said I have two builds on my excal, one is fully balanced that every ability isn't bad, and the other, one I can just go full press 4 or E whatever people want to call it this days.

 

Yes it should be left alone, because it's my CHOICE to choose to sacrifice those abilities in my builds, I ain't dragging you, DE, or anybody in the game with it.

 

I'm sorry, what builds? 

Low power-cost was not a build, because you could pretty much use high efficiency on everything with little to no loss. And don't give me the "Durration Suffurred HURR!", because If you used Fleeting and a maxed streamline, you would actually buff your duration builds since you would gain more time for every point of energy spent than you lost, with the only downsides being having to cast something more often. 

 

Most builds in the game before this change all had Fleeting Expertise in them, hence every build used Fleeting Expertise, hence Fleeting Expertise had no play in build-diversity at all since it was always there. Now there is MORE build diversity since people will have to weigh between duration and efficiency on toggle-able abilities, as it should've been from the start.

And you, that the build is low power cost or not, it's still a BUILD, deal with it. You say little to no loss? Adding fleeting made frames like mesa only viable for her 4, because the cost was THREE of her ability for ONE, if that's little then I don't know what you consider big. Y'all keep saying fleeting had no cost, but it seems y'all only thinking of the one toggle skill and forgetting the other 1-3 skills that rely on duration.

 

Most builds sure used fleeting, but was it required? No, people chose to put it there in the first place. 

This is way too similar to the multishot arguments that happened less than a month ago, and honestly, I'm not going to deal with it.

 

If a player wants to min-max, their choice, want to balance, their choice, want to just f around with their build, their choice also.

 

And if it should have been like that from the start, then it wouldn't have happened now, that's even worst than the "it's bug" excuse.

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And you, that the build is low power cost or not, it's still a BUILD, deal with it. You say little to no loss? Adding fleeting made frames like mesa only viable for her 4, because the cost was THREE of her ability for ONE, if that's little then I don't know what you consider big. Y'all keep saying fleeting had no cost, but it seems y'all only thinking of the one toggle skill and forgetting the other 1-3 skills that rely on duration.

 

Most builds sure used fleeting, but was it required? No, people chose to put it there in the first place. 

This is way too similar to the multishot arguments that happened less than a month ago, and honestly, I'm not going to deal with it.

 

If a player wants to min-max, their choice, want to balance, their choice, want to just f around with their build, their choice also.

 

And if it should have been like that from the start, then it wouldn't have happened now, that's even worst than the "it's bug" excuse.

 

People use fleeting and streamline combined because it's the obvious choice where the downsides to using them are either non-existent, negligible or easily rectified. It's a safe and easy choice to add either or both to any build you have, that doesn't make it a build centered around it or the concept around it, like duration, range or power builds, that just means all those builds benefits from it. You will simply never hear anyone say "Oh I am running a high-efficiency build, because it let's me cast far more than usual", because everybody is already doing that so it's a @(*()$ given. You don't have to fool yourself anymore, because you're not fooling anyone else. 

 

It should've been like that from the start, but as we all know DE is slow to come around, and late is better than never, just like how they removed coptering. At the end of the day, it happened, and you're just going to have to deal with that like you have to deal with everything else DE does. 

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The problem here would be that people are modding their frames for one ability, and only one ability... Most likely because that one ability is so goddamn strong it pretty much makes the rest of the kit useless in comparison. 

Besides that, I think it's unlikely you'll ever get to see your abilities take all the benefits without any of the downsides of corrupted mods. 

I never really use my abilities because my guns and movement 2.0 are just better...

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From what I have been gathering over the last few days, only the people who really min/maxed to the extreme are having problems with the changes. Those who rely heavily on neg duration builds etc. There is nothing wrong with them but those builds arent required in any gameplay to date.

 

Yes this was a slight nerf to those that use extreme neg but it hasnt made a single frame "Useless" your build might be useless now but not the frame itself.

 

 

Your assessment is both true and false.

 

Some Warframes need certain builds to be able to fulfill their purpose and use.  My main beef in regard of this change to duration and how it affects toggle abilities is chiefly directed at Equinox Night form and her use as group damage mitigation and healing.  The numbers prior to the change allowed some room to favor more than one build, depending on group content and the use of Corrosive Projection or not.  The compromise was mainly concerned with range and the decision to include Overextended in a build or not.

 

One build, for example, favored Overextended and all 3 Power Strength mods, allow Night Form to effectively keep a good chunk of enemies within the area of effect, which proved to be especially useful on defense missions.  The energy cost was prohibitive, but manageable.  That aspect, as it stands, has not changed: the build does provide a sizable area of effect.  The difference is how extremely prohibitive the use of Mend has become for this build, making a reactive use of Mend so costly that it provides fewer benefits, as it is sure to eat through enough energy so to cripple Pacify.  Therefore, the synergy between the two abilities is severely damaged and, as a result, so is Equinox's use as an effective group healer.

 

In essence, as things currently stand, the choice must be made between Power Strength or Power Duration.  Choosing power Strength makes for a strong Pacify effect, but at the cost of a reliable Mend.  Choosing Power Duration cripples Pacify to the point of near-uselessness (which was already pretty subpar).  Few people will choose to mod for Power Strength when choosing a Night Form play style.

 

So far as Day Form goes, Maim has been nerfed to a manageable degree (meaning it is on par with likewise nerfs to other Warframe toggle abilities).  The choice between Power Strength or Duration is dependent on group composition and mission type/content (how long, etc.).  So Day form's toolkit has been affected, but can remain fairly unaltered from its general usefulness prior 17.5.

Night form does not fare so well, even using different builds.  Transient Fortitude cripples Mend, but benefits Pacify.  Blind Rage benefits Pacify, but makes frequent ability casting (changing forms, Rest, releasing the Mend) woefully prohibitive.  Intensify does not offer enough Power Strength to make Pacify worth using (at least, you won't really notice a significant difference against enemies mid-Star Chart and up), and Streamline does very little to allow for ability usage outside of Rest with any consistence.

 

I'm sure to people who do not play Equinox in Night Form very much, "only the people who really min/maxed to the extreme are having problems with the changes. Those who rely heavily on neg duration builds etc. There is nothing wrong with them but those builds arent required in any gameplay to date".  But to those who do, that statement really is uninformed and obtusely generalizing (at least in its ramifications).

 

Edit: typography

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People use fleeting and streamline combined because it's the obvious choice where the downsides to using them are either non-existent, negligible or easily rectified. It's a safe and easy choice to add either or both to any build you have, that doesn't make it a build centered around it or the concept around it, like duration, range or power builds, that just means all those builds benefits from it. You will simply never hear anyone say "Oh I am running a high-efficiency build, because it let's me cast far more than usual", because everybody is already doing that so it's a @(*()$ given. You don't have to fool yourself anymore, because you're not fooling anyone else. 

 

It should've been like that from the start, but as we all know DE is slow to come around, and late is better than never, just like how they removed coptering. At the end of the day, it happened, and you're just going to have to deal with that like you have to deal with everything else DE does. 

Why do you keep thinking that everybody runs those 2 mods together on EVERY build? You've seen FaitKO builds on her excalibur? Not even one efficiency mod on there. You keep saying the same thing over and over about how everybody runs those 2 mods or just one when not everybody does the same thing. Just because it's safe and efficient doesn't mean that everybody will pick it, so stop fooling yourself into a belief that every WF player uses those mods as if they're MANDATORY mods in every build. And yes, people certain time actually use high-efficiency builds to spam an ability, just like chroma sometime uses max efficiency/negative duration allows him to spam elemental ward to heal himself and his teammates.

 

I thought corrupted mods were supposed to allow a player to focus on something they like from their kit, but I guess it wasn't enough for some of y'all of a downside that fleeting was taking more than half of any duration of a skill, seems like it also has to mess with your toggle ability also, as if we aren't running out of mod slots already.

 

I'm done, since you say the same thing over and over and talk as if you were every player in WF and knew every of their builds.

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So you were expecting there to be no downsides for halving all energy costs?

This is more of a general comment than a reply to your quote, but might as well.

 

Fleeting Expertise and Streamline were pretty much mandatory since dividing energy costs by 4 is too good, except for perhaps Chroma.

 

All this change has really done is make you use Narrow minded (If Transient Fortitude)/Primed Continuity on toggle frames like Excal, Mesa, Ember (Ember actually comes out positive since the power itself actually changed) etc.

 

I fail to see how this actually increases choice. Maximum efficiency is still king, except you have to put an extra mod to get it.

 

It's fairly easy to achieve it too and it doesn't affect that many frames, so as a 'downside' thing, it's very... poorly thought out. Most frames can do recasts after all, except for maybe Chroma.

 

While it should have downsides, it's reducing diversity since in addition to efficiency mods, you also have to put in duration mods for toggle frames. This just goes to show how Fleeting Expertise was a huge mistake to add into the game and fixing it will take too much work and piss off too many people, but the damage has been already done.

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Yes, negative duration made certain builds working bad. And we have less choiсe while building our frames now. 

If DE wanted for it to work in a positive way and give us more variation in builds they could have just made it affect toggled abilities only if duration is >=100%.

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"All the forma you've used and build's you've been building so long are now completely useless, shut up and take a marrow up the !, just adapat"

Seriously, adapt has to be the second worse possible arguement for balance next to deal with it.

More so if you're like me just recent reforma every frame to fit in that god damn exilus slot. They just couldn't warn us about this. Such major chance, yet no warning till it hit us. Now I had to reforma away the extra v slot for transient fortitude.

Btw, the ration is duration/4 = efficiency >= 200 for max efficiency

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Your assessment is both true and false.

 

Some Warframes need certain builds to be able to fulfill their purpose and use.  My main beef in regard of this change to duration and how it affects toggle abilities is chiefly directed at Equinox Night form and her use as group damage mitigation and healing.  The numbers prior to the change allowed some room to favor more than one build, depending on group content and the use of Corrosive Projection or not.  The compromise was mainly concerned with range and the decision to include Overextended in a build or not.

 

One build, for example, favored Overextended and all 3 Power Strength mods, allow Night Form to effectively keep a good chunk of enemies within the area of effect, which proved to be especially useful on defense missions.  The energy cost was prohibitive, but manageable.  That aspect, as it stands, has not changed: the build does provide a sizable area of effect.  The difference is how extremely prohibitive the use of Mend has become for this build, making a reactive use of Mend so costly that it provides fewer benefits, as it is sure to eat through enough energy so to cripple Pacify.  Therefore, the synergy between the two abilities is severely damaged and, as a result, so is Equinox's use as an effective group healer.

 

In essence, as things currently stand, the choice must be made between Power Strength or Power Duration.  Choosing power Strength makes for a strong Pacify effect, but at the cost of a reliable Mend.  Choosing Power Duration cripples Pacify to the point of near-uselessness (which was already pretty subpar).  Few people will choose to mod for Power Strength when choosing a Night Form play style.

 

So far as Day Form goes, Maim has been nerfed to a manageable degree (meaning it is on par with likewise nerfs to other Warframe toggle abilities).  The choice between Power Strength or Duration is dependent on group composition and mission type/content (how long, etc.).  So Day form's toolkit has been affected, but can remain fairly unaltered from its general usefulness prior 17.5.

Night form does not fare so well, even using different builds.  Transient Fortitude cripples Mend, but benefits Pacify.  Blind Rage benefits Pacify, but makes frequent ability casting (changing forms, Rest, releasing the Mend) woefully prohibitive.  Intensify does not offer enough Power Strength to make Pacify worth using (at least, you won't really notice a significant difference against enemies mid-Star Chart and up), and Streamline does very little to allow for ability usage outside of Rest with any consistence.

 

I'm sure to people who do not play Equinox in Night Form very much, "only the people who really min/maxed to the extreme are having problems with the changes. Those who rely heavily on neg duration builds etc. There is nothing wrong with them but those builds arent required in any gameplay to date".  But to those who do, that statement really is uninformed and obtusely generalizing (at least in its ramifications).

 

Edit: typography

I play her almost exclusively in night form

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please fix this DE this is just maddness you cant build the frames how you want anymore you are the ones who want "balance" but you throw this ball at us thinking we wouldnt catch it come one this will make your player base new and old think about leaving or giving up on this cuz its one F*** up after another please read the forums and fix this or revert or your players will riot

Umm.. I will not riot, nor am I upset with this change. Excalibur Prime is my main and this had absolutely no effect on my build. I still run survivals into the 100's with perma exalted blade... aside from those pesky eximus units. I also use every one of Excalibur's abilities because they work so well together, and I am modded so all of his abilities are effective.

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