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weezedog

Major Nerf: Negative Duration Increases Energy Per Second Consumed On Toggled Abilities

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Forcing duration mods, after making everything in DE's power to make melee weapons variety less "narrow"...

 

As if null field tweak wasn't enough... Really, it's logic now is pretty much this: someone threw a grenade using his throwing skills, you take down/subdue the "grenadier" and because of that grenade doesn't explode. 

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Next thing will be DE making it so that instant cast nuke-style abilities need +duration or they don't do their full damage......

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Multiple maxed rank 10 mods? Exilus slot? It's pretty easy to need so much build points, even more so when you need to use different auras. I have a frame or two with 6 of 8 main slots.polarized.

Oh, ok. I was just wondering because for my builds I have to forma twice at most, even with exilus.

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Yeah my ultimate (4th power) on Banshee, Nyx, Equinox, Excalibur, Mesa etc are all completely useless now. That makes the whole frame useless as far as I'm concerned. This is so intensely aggravating that I will boicott any and all plat purchase until this gets reversed. I paid money for plat and used that plat to buy Mesa because it was such a tedious grindsession to farm her. Now shes useless! Who cares abuout a little weakling in high heals with no armor, shields or health which only can offer some shields for herself using her energy?! Ffff useless nerf! I thuoght this was a bug until recently when it still wasnt fixed after the new primeacccess.

Also: RAGE

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Yeah my ultimate (4th power) on Banshee, Nyx and Mesa are all completely useless now. That makes the whole frame useless as far as I'm concerned. This is so intensely aggravating that I will boicott any and all plat purchase until this gets reversed. I paid money for plat and used that plat to buy Mesa because it was such a tedious grindsession to farm her. Now shes useless! Who cares abuout a little weakling in high heals with no armor, shields or health which only can offer some shields for herself using her energy?! Ffff useless nerf! I thuoght this was a bug until recently when it still wasnt fixed after the new primeacccess.

Also: RAGE

Use a duration mod.  Seriously.

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Use a duration mod.  Seriously.

Non sequiter! You can try to get Mesa to work as turret like before (what we worked to get and modded up for) with duration mods to no avail. It will still drain you of energy insanely fast.

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Next thing I'm waiting for DE to say is that all instant cast abilities will now be affected by duration too, and if you have negative duration then they will be less effective, because why not? We're changing duration so much we're going to re-release it as Umbra Duration!

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Non sequiter! You can try to get Mesa to work as turret like before (what we worked to get and modded up for) with duration mods to no avail. It will still drain you of energy insanely fast.

If you go to 100% duration (hint: Narrow Minded only really affects Shooting gallery's range on Mesa, so it's basically free) the cost is the same as before.  If you get to 100% duration (again, NM makes this easy at no real cost) then Peacemaker costs the same as before (plus, your 2 and 3 last longer.)  Peacemaker has always been really expensive; people only started to notice and complain about it because of the stink raised by players' reactions to the patch notes.  If you don't use Blind Rage, you can even afford to use less than 100% duration and still get max efficiency.  If you do use Blind Rage (no more than rank 2, I hope,) then you can go over 100% duration to stay at max efficiency.  

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Yeah my ultimate (4th power) on Banshee, Nyx, Equinox, Mesa etc are all completely useless now. That makes the whole frame useless as far as I'm concerned. This is so intensely aggravating that I will boicott any and all plat purchase until this gets reversed. I paid money for plat and used that plat to buy Mesa because it was such a tedious grindsession to farm her. Now shes useless! Who cares abuout a little weakling in high heals with no armor, shields or health which only can offer some shields for herself using her energy?! Ffff useless nerf! I thuoght this was a bug until recently when it still wasnt fixed after the new primeacccess.

Also: RAGE

I actually can't tell if you're serious, or you're just imitating how whiny people can be in this thread.

 

If you're the second one, I think you've over done it a bit.

 

And if you're the first one... umm...

I mean... Like Pandemonium said, just add a Duration mod, and the energy drain will be bearable.

Also, you get 2 extra abilities: Shatter Shield and Shooting Gallery.

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Stop crying everyone, damnit man just adapt.. Some builds where crazy OP and now arent and you need to change a bit.. It gets a bit harder for some classes, big deal.. 

 

That's great for the builds that were OP, but what about the ones that were just passable? With these changes limiting specification the OP builds are now passable(debatable) and the ones that were passable are now too weakened. If DE wants the greater variety of loadouts that the different configurations are suupposed to add then they need to adress underclocking mods/separate slot forma'ing for the different configs.

 

However, to return to my original point many are going to be struggling with some of the tougher missions created under the old standard. This will limit the number of viable frames and loadouts for these missions. It's like the G-Mag change: It curbstomped the incessant stream of farmhapy players sitting in one place with mag gathering everything into a pile, but it also caused many people to simply dismiss mag as uselss rather than seeing her usefulness as Anti-Corpus and crowd control specialist.

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That's great for the builds that were OP, but what about the ones that were just passable? With these changes limiting specification the OP builds are now passable(debatable) and the ones that were passable are now too weakened. I

Can you cite some examples?

 

 

It's like the G-Mag change: It curbstomped the incessant stream of farmhapy players sitting in one place with mag gathering everything into a pile, but it also caused many people to simply dismiss mag as uselss rather than seeing her usefulness as Anti-Corpus and crowd control specialist.

How is that remotely DE's fault?  Ignorant/stupid players ignored Mag's good points even as they abused GPull; that never changed.  

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That's great for the builds that were OP, but what about the ones that were just passable? With these changes limiting specification the OP builds are now passable(debatable) and the ones that were passable are now too weakened. If DE wants the greater variety of loadouts that the different configurations are suupposed to add then they need to adress underclocking mods/separate slot forma'ing for the different configs.

 

However, to return to my original point many are going to be struggling with some of the tougher missions created under the old standard. This will limit the number of viable frames and loadouts for these missions. It's like the G-Mag change: It curbstomped the incessant stream of farmhapy players sitting in one place with mag gathering everything into a pile, but it also caused many people to simply dismiss mag as uselss rather than seeing her usefulness as Anti-Corpus and crowd control specialist.

The only builds that really got hurt from this change are those who killed Duration for Power Strength, which, in most cases, made a frame into a 1 button class.

 

That only applies to the people who abused her as GMag, though.

Think about the new players, who are just discovering Mag. And, wow, Shield Polarize just killed an entire room of level 40 Corpus.

DE has overall made the game more quality - frames now have 4 abilities.

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Non sequiter! You can try to get Mesa to work as turret like before (what we worked to get and modded up for) with duration mods to no avail. It will still drain you of energy insanely fast.

... The energy drain is still roughly the same as it was before the change, you just need to keep your duration above 100%. Big deal. 

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So, was the change reverted or something? I just picked up a Fleeting Expertise mod (paired with Streamline) and energy cost of my EBlade is ~0.6 energy/second.

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So, was the change reverted or something? I just picked up a Fleeting Expertise mod (paired with Streamline) and energy cost of my EBlade is ~0.6 energy/second.

It wasn't. 

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Then, why does my 40% duration EBlade only uses 0.6 energy/second which is correct for the old formula and incorrect for the new one?

 

PS inb4 stuff, no, I can tell half energy a second and one and a half apart, just by using my eyes, that isn't the problem.

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Then, why does my 40% duration EBlade only uses 0.6 energy/second which is correct for the old formula and incorrect for the new one?

 

PS inb4 stuff, no, I can tell half energy a second and one and a half apart, just by using my eyes, that isn't the problem.

 

Is the 0.6 energy per second being displayed on the new abilities screen that shows the effect of mods, or is that 0.6 energy per second an approximated based on what you are seeing in a mission? 

 

You should go by what's displayed in the abilities screen, it is what everyone is using to accurately determine energy drain.

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PS inb4 stuff, no, I can tell half energy a second and one and a half apart, just by using my eyes, that isn't the problem.

 

Is the 0.6 energy per second being displayed on the new abilities screen that shows the effect of mods, or is that 0.6 energy per second an approximated based on what you are seeing in a mission? 

 

You should go by what's displayed in the abilities screen, it is what everyone is using to accurately determine energy drain.

 

PS inb4 stuff, no, I can tell half energy a second and one and a half apart, just by using my eyes, that isn't the problem.

 

Srsly?

 

In case you still somehow don't understand: It. Is. Both. It's written 0.6 in the status screen, and it seems to be close to half energy a second in a game itself.

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Are your streamline and fleeting maxed resulting in 190% efficiency being listed? Because that extra efficiency above 175% that normally isn't used might be getting applied to your negative duration.

 

Two days ago my 175% effeciency 70% duration EB was listed as 0.9 eps 

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Are your streamline and fleeting maxed? Because that extra efficiency above 175% that normally isn't used might be getting applied to your negative duration.

 

Two days ago my 175% effeciency 70% duration EB was listed as 0.9 eps 

Well, that's more like a response. Yes, they are both maxed. Though, if we guess the formula, it shouldn't work that way. But again, we are guessing the formula. I'll check that later.

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Well what I think it's doing is this: 

 

Base 2.5 eps * 1.6 (for the 60% negative duration) = 4 eps.

4 eps * 0.10 (for the +90% efficiency) = 0.4 eps BUT efficiency rules cap the lowest EB can go down to is 0.6 so the 0.4 is rounded up to the minimum 0.6.

 

If this does turn out the case, then it could be a big bright side to this whole situation. I can almost completely offset my 30% negative duration by just switching out my rank 4 streamline for a rank 5 streamline. That 5% extra efficiency, while seeming small, can have a big effect on the calculation.

 

175% efficiency and 70% duration = 0.81 eps

180% efficiency and 70% duration = 0.65 eps or just barely above the cap.

 

I will have to wait till I get home from work to test this out though.

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Well what I think it's doing is this: 

 

Base 2.5 eps * 1.6 (for the 60% negative duration) = 4 eps.

4 eps * 0.10 (for the +90% efficiency) = 0.4 eps BUT efficiency rules cap the lowest EB can go down to is 0.6 so the 0.4 is rounded up to the minimum 0.6.

EPS is capped at 25% of the original ability's energy-drain, that much I know. You cannot go lower than that, it becomes obvious when you look at Mesa and Peacemaker. No matter what you do Peacemaker will not go lower than 3.75 EPS, and the original ability is at 15 EPS. 

 

Maybe you already knew this though. 

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EPS is capped at 25% of the original ability's energy-drain, that much I know. You cannot go lower than that, it becomes obvious when you look at Mesa and Peacemaker. No matter what you do Peacemaker will not go lower than 3.75 EPS, and the original ability is at 15 EPS. 

 

Maybe you already knew this though. 

 

Well we used to think that efficiency itself was capped at +75% and anything above that is ignored. But reality is that it isn't efficiency that is capped, it is that the minimum cost of an ability can never go below 25% of it's original base value. That is a subtle but big big difference.

 

This is important because mods can now raise the energy cost of abilities, and that extra efficiency beyond +75% can be used to offset it.

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Well we used to think that efficiency itself was capped at +75% and anything above that is ignored. But reality is that it isn't efficiency that is capped, it is that the minimum cost of an ability can never go below 25% of it's original base value. That is a subtle but big big difference.

 

This is important because mods can now raise the energy cost of abilities, and that extra efficiency beyond +75% can be used to offset it.

 
 
More like 2.5 / 0.4 = 6.25 (it isn't 60% efficiency nerf, it's rescaled cost for 40% of duration - so two and a half times)
then 6.25 * 0.10 = 0.625, or 0.63 when rounded in the abilities screen.
Still, have to check it though.
 
UPD:
 
Checked it, and that's exactly how it works.
Lowering duration to 25% (without affecting efficiency) pushed EBlade cost to 1 which is (2.5 / 0.25) * 0.1.
Installing 30% efficiency penalty mod (without affecting duration, so my efficiency became 160% instead of listed 175%) brought it from 0.6 back to 2.5 which is (2.5 / 0.4) * 0.4.
With both 25% duration and 160% efficiency, cost is 4 which is (2.5 / 0.25) * 0.4.
 
So, the "efficiency cap" is indeed a cap of skill's energy cost, not an actual cap of efficiency (despite what it writes in status screen).
 
After testing it with different duration values, formula for toggles as follows:
 
Sustain cost = (base sustain cost / duration ) * efficiency (not capped), but the result is never less than 25% of the original cost.

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