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weezedog

Major Nerf: Negative Duration Increases Energy Per Second Consumed On Toggled Abilities

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More like 2.5 / 0.4 = 6.25 (it isn't 60% effeciency nerf, it's rescaled cost for 40% of duration - so two and a half times)

then 6.25 * 0.10 = 0.625, or 0.6 when rounded in abilities screen.

Still, have to check it though.

 

This seems more accurate and closer than mine, that calculation works out better to what I though my EB eps was the other day when i looked at it.

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Updated the post. The formula is pretty much what I was thinking it is, save for the efficiency not being actually capped. Weird.

 

Anyway, the way it works now, Duration effect on toggles will be nerf rather than buff in vast majority of cases. Simply due to the fact, +50% duration equals  ~33% ability cost decrease, while -50% equals doubling ability cost. And the minimal cost cap is still there. Anyway, it's not that I'm against it, but it would make sense to me to re evaluate "- Duration" effect on mods, given "- Duration" property is now has much more of an effect than it used to.

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I agree, -duration seems to have a much greater increase in energy cost than +duration has in lowering it. At a minimum that should be be addressed.

 

Assuming base eps / duration = net eps

 

Base 3 eps with +30% duration = 2.3 eps or a change of -0.7 eps

Base 3 eps with -30% duration = 4.3 eps or a change of +1.3 eps

 

On the bright side, it is nice that efficiency is not actually capped at +75% as it opens the option of using the additional efficiency to help offset the negative duration. It appears to be better to use maxed fleeting within a negative duration build even with the additional -10% duration penalty it incurs.

 

Base 3 eps with -50% duration (rank 4 fleeting) = 6 eps * 75% efficiency (rank 4 streamline and fleeting) = 1.5 eps

Base 3 eps with -60% duration (rank 5 fleeting) = 7.5 eps * 90% effeciency (rank 5 streamline and fleeting) =  0.75 eps

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Also there is still at least one more toggle that needs its energy cost brought more in line, and that's Chroma's Effigy. It's still base 10 eps which I believe is 2nd highest only to Peacemaker.

Which brings me to Peacemaker as well. Given the changes to how it works, now only working in a narrow cone, does it still justify its extremely high cost of 15 eps?

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IF you actually know your way around regular/corrupted/dual mod trade offs, this actually buffs most frames that weren't one button wonders with their toggle abilities fairly significantly.  For instance, any frames that had duration based abilities they couldn't afford to mod for because of efficiency concerns?  Well slap in Streamline/Constitution/Primed Continuity and you have 71.5% efficiency on those toggled abilities while also having 83% increased duration (but only 30% efficiency) on those non-toggle duration based abilities.

 

Warframes like Banshee pretty much get pure win from this, because they already needed pretty much every stat, and this makes getting all that on with decent power strength while still being able to 'Quake much more efficient.

 

As for frames that WERE one (toggle) button wonders, they were only so because of laziness.  Yes, really.

     -Carrier/Mesa mentality.  AKA lazy as all get out and/or AFK farming with a single ability (we all know EXACTLY why greedy pull got nerfed, let's just be honest here, MESA.)

 

Nyx?  She can now mind control extremely powerful units and buff their damage at the same time (not to mention MC'd ancient healers :3), as well as basically recasting Chaos, or casting it over a duration.  Absorb was only really great for defense cheesing or big crowds.  Guess what, it's still fine, because she basically doesn't need power strength except for buffing MC'd minions with that one augment.

 

Ember?  Accelerant debuff uses duration, especially versus higher leveled enemies.

 

Mesa?  She lets otherwise weak weapons do insane damage, and chain-disables several nearby enemies, while having 95% ranged damage reduction.  2 of these scale hard with duration, and you were stupid and lazy for not building it.

 

Mirage?  Also likes that duration, only much, much more than any of the others mentioned so far.

 

Eclipse?  Her duration using ability just got buffed, congrats, and her shapeshifting buffs always scaled off duration.

 

About the only frame that could be seen as being nerfed by this is probably Valkyr.  With Eternal War, she doesn't need a lot of duration for anything really, except her ult now.

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this actually buffs most frames that weren't one button wonders with their toggle abilities fairly significantly.

 

1) it will be 61,7% efficiency for toggles, if there's 30% Efficiency and 83% Duration.
2) Everyone obviously has Primed Continuity
 
The problem is, Duration effect increases exponentially towards its negative side. And while Duration based builds simply got a nice little buff to their sustainability (and only in cases when it wasn't already on 75% efficiency mark), negative Duration builds had their toggles' base cost increased up to eight times.
 
You can tell whatever you want, but in most cases, it's a nerf. I can live with it perfectly, but it's a clear nerf.
 

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I didn't really read through 10 pages of replies, so I don't know if this was mentioned.  But from a purely logical standpoint, toggled abilities do use duration, because you are using that ability for an unspecified period of time, which is durational.  If you use it for 5 seconds, that's just like using chaos with a 5 second duration.  

 

Correct me if I am wrong here but aren't most toggled abilities far less in initial energy cost to use? Without efficiency mods, standard ults use 100 energy.  Toggled abilities use like 25 to start?  I never noticed exactly how much, but regardless, I can see the logic of this change, and agree with it or not, logically if DE sees it anywhere near how I am seeing it, its unlikely to be changed back (perhaps altered a little, hopefully), 

 

This may have ruined how everyone is used to playing, but for me, as I haven't been playing long, its not a drastic soul crushing change.  Its just something you gotta get used to.  

 

If you want to use a toggled ability LONGER add duration, same as if you want invis on loki to last longer, or nyx's chaos etc... the major difference between those and these are that toggled abilities are damaging abilities, which means you previously modded solely for damage, that made them super powerful for very little cost that lasted forever.

 

Well, now you can't.

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Non sequiter! You can try to get Mesa to work as turret like before (what we worked to get and modded up for) with duration mods to no avail. It will still drain you of energy insanely fast.

So don't use it as often, others have survived and conquered the same missions without mesa spamming 4.  She has 1, 2, and 3 as well.  Also a primary, secondary, and melee weapon!

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1) it will be 61,7% efficiency for toggles, if there's 30% Efficiency and 83% Duration.
2) Everyone obviously has Primed Continuity
 
The problem is, Duration effect increases exponentially towards its negative side. And while Duration based builds simply got a nice little buff to their sustainability (and only in cases when it wasn't already on 75% efficiency mark), negative Duration builds had their toggles' base cost increased up to eight times.
 
You can tell whatever you want, but in most cases, it's a nerf. I can live with it perfectly, but it's a clear nerf.
 

 

 

1)  Sort of, but only because it's set up to work in a way it has no reason to.  According to DE's explanation of how it's supposed to work:  28% + 55% = 83% additional Duration.     83% / 2 = 41.5% additional Efficiency.     41.5% + 30% = 71.5% additional Efficiency.  That is, if it stacked the way it ought to, it's apparently currently bugged according to my tests.  According to my in-game testing 78% duration and 30% efficiency brings the energy cost down to ~5.9/second, meaning that it ends up being ~60.66% efficiency.  Mark it up as a bug, point it out to DE, and wait for them to fix it.

 

This means two things:

 

     -Evidently DE used their diminishing returns scaling calculations for this duration-based efficiency.  This means 83% duration equals ~45% efficiency, which is actually more than dividing the additional Duration value by two.

     -It's not actually adding the independent efficiency values from duration and efficiency mods together (~75% efficiency), but instead is dividing them, resulting in yet another layer of diminishing returns that is pretty dishonest and has no reason to exist.  So, yes, you are right, but hopefully it's an error on DE's part and they fix it to be additive.

 

2)  Without Primed Continuity you only lose 11.25% efficiency and 25% duration.  Yeah, it's only a bit above 50% additional efficiency without PC.

 

You've got a point, DE farked up the math in two different places on that one.  It clearly ought to be additional duration /2 = efficiency, and that efficiency ought to stack additively with direct efficiency from mods.

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Part of me is fairly confident that this was an intentional jab at fleeting expertise having no downsides on Toggled abilities. Well at the very least TR and FE now have seemingly tangible downsides like OE and BR/NM for those who want to use them, which i'm going to assume DE wants.

 

lol

downsides? fleeting expertise is simply +-0 now, so totally useless on toggled abilities

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lol

downsides? fleeting expertise is simply +-0 now, so totally useless on toggled abilities

Not actually true, check it out by yourself by checking the in-game energy costs with and without it if you must

 

The effect of duration is like half the effect of power efficiency so +60% -60/2% = +30% power efficiency when all is said and done.

 

My Excal is at 0.63 energy per second on EB with Fleeting Expertise, and at 1.07 without it, in example.

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1)  Sort of, but only because it's set up to work in a way it has no reason to.  According to DE's explanation of how it's supposed to work:  28% + 55% = 83% additional Duration.     83% / 2 = 41.5% additional Efficiency.     41.5% + 30% = 71.5% additional Efficiency.  That is, if it stacked the way it ought to, it's apparently currently bugged according to my tests.  According to my in-game testing 78% duration and 30% efficiency brings the energy cost down to ~5.9/second, meaning that it ends up being ~60.66% efficiency.  Mark it up as a bug, point it out to DE, and wait for them to fix it.

 

This means two things:

 

     -Evidently DE used their diminishing returns scaling calculations for this duration-based efficiency.  This means 83% duration equals ~45% efficiency, which is actually more than dividing the additional Duration value by two.

     -It's not actually adding the independent efficiency values from duration and efficiency mods together (~75% efficiency), but instead is dividing them, resulting in yet another layer of diminishing returns that is pretty dishonest and has no reason to exist.  So, yes, you are right, but hopefully it's an error on DE's part and they fix it to be additive.

 

2)  Without Primed Continuity you only lose 11.25% efficiency and 25% duration.  Yeah, it's only a bit above 50% additional efficiency without PC.

 

You've got a point, DE farked up the math in two different places on that one.  It clearly ought to be additional duration /2 = efficiency, and that efficiency ought to stack additively with direct efficiency from mods.

1) I don't know from where do you take your calculations (especially "divide by two" part), but the formula is pretty simple and intuitive (aside from one part), and I posted it previously:

 
Sustain cost = (base sustain cost / duration ) * efficiency (not capped), but the result is never less than 25% of the original cost.

 

2) Continuity versus Primed Continuity results in over 50% extra sustain cost. As simple as it is. Primed Continuity used with full Strength build paired with Fleeting Expertise pushes efficiency just a little over negative values resulting in about 103%, while using just Continuity will leave efficiency at somewhere near 47% mark. This is pretty much the difference between sustainable and unsustainable toggle.

 

Also, Fleeting Expertise is nowhere near +- 0 on toggles. It is still by far the most efficient way to reduce their cost. However, when it is paired with any kind of efficiency penalty inducing mods, sustain cost skyrockets.

 

Anyway, I am pretty OK with the change itself, safe for the one part. In my opinion, negative duration penalties on mods should be toned down. This change sure increased their relative cost compared to other parameters. For example, something like 60% Efficiency for -40% Duration on Fleeting. Pretty much to remove desperate need of Primed Duration to make full Strength builds work.

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Personally it killed my build diversity on all toggle ability frames. While before I had 3 builds for most of them, now I only have 1 viable general build, which is weaker in every aspect. Any changes to that build now makes most of their abilities completely useless.

 

To put it short, the update is a contradiction...

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Personally it killed my build diversity on all toggle ability frames. While before I had 3 builds for most of them, now I only have 1 viable general build, which is weaker in every aspect. Any changes to that build now makes most of their abilities completely useless.

 

To put it short, the update is a contradiction...

Could you shed some light with some examples?  

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Personally it killed my build diversity on all toggle ability frames. While before I had 3 builds for most of them, now I only have 1 viable general build, which is weaker in every aspect. Any changes to that build now makes most of their abilities completely useless.

 

To put it short, the update is a contradiction...

 

Build diversity... You had 2 different builds to hit 4, tape down M1 (or Shift-Tab out) and go do whatever for a few minutes?

 

The point of the update wasn't for build diversity. It was for not making frames into 1 skill AFK frames, which it has done wonderfully. It brings more quality to the game.

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-snip-

No, DE didn't screw up on the math. It is you who screwed up and doesn't get how the new formula works.

 

I already made a thread regarding this but it was just ignored because of people who can't brain a few math. Here's the link https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/537751-feedback-on-ember-changes-including-a-good-build-and-efficiency-formula/#entry6041478

 

You could also use this and the other people on this thread so they get to see the whole picture of these changes. It is NOT a nerf for every frames, it was to balance some. To be honest, Excal is still barely affected by these change unless you're using Blind Rage, quite same for the other frames.

 

OP should also frigging edit this thread already and put my thread or at least the new formula on the first post so that every people who went here to rant can be ENLIGHTENED first regarding the changes and finally decide not to rant and simply adjust. I already gave a spoonfeed build on the TLDR part of my thread yet the thread is still ignored.

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It's funny because it seems like some of the min-maxers complaining are just learning the meaning of "trade-offs".

 

Found this on reddit the other day:

xG4suwQ.png

It basically says what the cost (not effective Efficiency) of toggled powers is, now that Duration and Efficiency both affect them. The lowest possible cost is if you get in the blue region, or at least on the line dividing blue and red. (Easy example: 175% Efficiency, 100% Duration is exactly on the line.)

 

As you can see, it takes less Efficiency to lower a cost than Duration; it's not even possible to get to 25% cost from +Duration alone (it would take 400% Duration to get to that point). It's just that for toggled abilities, the cost is squarely in the green zone with Fleeting alone, roughly halving the gain compared to before.

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-snip-

Or just ignore the whole graph which isn't really entirely needed and focus on learning the main formula. Which is simply energy cost multiplied to current duration efficiency. I've already made a seperate thread regarding it. I did my best to explain it in grade-school level. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/542340-not-a-major-nerf-new-duration-efficiency-mechanics-explained-with-tldr/

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Build diversity... You had 2 different builds to hit 4, tape down M1 (or Shift-Tab out) and go do whatever for a few minutes?

 

The point of the update wasn't for build diversity. It was for not making frames into 1 skill AFK frames, which it has done wonderfully. It brings more quality to the game.

 

I actually messed up on that statement and forgot I had changed my mind about it. Might need to check on that dementia...

 

Edit: too much stupid in my post...

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Or just ignore the whole graph which isn't really entirely needed and focus on learning the main formula.

 

Visual aids for the visual learners, mein freund.

 

Not doing anyone any favors by zealously drawing attention to your work through spam posts.

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From what I have been gathering over the last few days, only the people who really min/maxed to the extreme are having problems with the changes. Those who rely heavily on neg duration builds etc. There is nothing wrong with them but those builds arent required in any gameplay to date.

 

Yes this was a slight nerf to those that use extreme neg but it hasnt made a single frame "Useless" your build might be useless now but not the frame itself.

 

You mean the people who actually put time into the game and have those maxed mods on a maxed frame?

Basically the people who have the mods are effected.

 

 

Those builds aren't required but directly nerfing every single build is bad design overall. It's "useless" by comparison.

 

(We all know that in the warframe forums, we get whiteknights who say that "if you can hit a guy for 1 damage then it's useful" on technicality.)

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I apologize, I didn't read through all of this thread, but I'd like to mention the only real frame that got nerfed here is Chroma imo. He's the only one with an insanely inefficient toggle ability, Effigy, and duration is something most Effigy-builders forsake for extra efficiency and strength. Now he needs duration badly to combat his base 10 e/s drain. That means that FE is almost redundant, as is BR and TF if you don't want to eat through his energy in a few seconds.

 

As for other frames, yeah I've had to change builds, but for the most part this actually kind of helps me to make all their abilities useful. I haven't used Mesa much yet, so please excuse my lack of experience with her since the update, but Ember, Equinox, Valkyr, and many other frames are still quite fine. This may be due to being used to trying to combat Chroma's energy drain, so it seems easy to me, so again, forgive me if I have angered anybody who disagrees.

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You mean the people who actually put time into the game and have those maxed mods on a maxed frame?

Basically the people who have the mods are effected.

 

 

Those builds aren't required but directly nerfing every single build is bad design overall. It's "useless" by comparison.

 

(We all know that in the warframe forums, we get whiteknights who say that "if you can hit a guy for 1 damage then it's useful" on technicality.)

It's not magic to get those mods. And it's not magic to calculate an optimal loadout for efficiency/ performance. Btw "every single build" is kind of a big overestimation.

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I apologize, I didn't read through all of this thread, but I'd like to mention the only real frame that got nerfed here is Chroma imo. He's the only one with an insanely inefficient toggle ability, Effigy, and duration is something most Effigy-builders forsake for extra efficiency and strength. Now he needs duration badly to combat his base 10 e/s drain. That means that FE is almost redundant, as is BR and TF if you don't want to eat through his energy in a few seconds.

Uhm actually he profits much of this, because now you boost the efficiency of Effigy the same time you prolong the duration of his 2 and 3.

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Came back to see how mesa was changed and...she is broken far as I am concerned; not only does peace maker do squat for dmg, I am out of energy within seconds and don't have enough to cast the other abilities. I guess I have to regrind ALL my toggle frames atleast 4x to make them some what useable again but at this point I am not going to bother, infact I think I am done with warframe as a whole. Every single patch nerfs stuff to push you to pay more money and grind like a dog, after blowing 500+ bucks here I think you have had enough for me. 

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