Why There Are Nerfs In A Pve Game.

[J-Pax]

An argument I see occurring far too often in threads relating to nerfs, buffs and players suggesting weapon changes or calling out for nerfs/buffs is this:

 

 

"Why do you want to balance this? It's a PVE game, it doesn't need balance. Stupid face."

 

 

 

Okay well, do you want your game to go from warframe to FOTMframe?

 

If there is not weapon balance in-game then players will trend towards the OP FOTM weaponry. This means that you're going to wind up going into 4 man co-op sessions and finding everyone only using Kunai. In for predicting nerfs.

 

 

Here is a better example: Prior the Hek/Shotgun nerf the most used weapon with the most kills scored was the Hek. This indicated that players got the Hek and just used it all the time - it was a great gun, fantastically overpowered. Unfortunately every player, their mum, cat, dog, gerbil, left shoe and toilet roll used the hek. Every match you went into mid-progression you had, at the least, one player using the Hek if not 3 of them - 4 if you were using one. This went against the grain of what the developers are aiming for - they want the game community to be diverse and use all of the weapons - not just one weapon because it's OP.

 

 

TL:DR You're right, they shouldn't nerf weapons. Instead the devs should take all the weapons we have away and give us a big red button that eliminates all enemies, collects the artifact, destroys the reactor, rescues the hostage, captures the target, redirects the ship and captures all the data nodes - and then teleports us to the escape pod. In 1 second of starting the map. In fact, the button goes off by itself.

Edited May 28, 2013 by J-Pax

[Blatantfool]

Please read this OP!

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/53317-why-nerfing-exists-a-lengthy-guide-to-why-youre-really-really-wrong/

[FrostbiteOH]

Where can I get one of those buttons?

[Kantazo]

Is the OP serious or is he been sarcastic? Hard to figure out. Oh well my 1000 post is a meaningless attempt to understand the mind of the human race, back to my ship.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Kantazo

[DarkFireRogue]

An argument I see occurring far too often in threads relating to nerfs, buffs and players suggesting weapon changes or calling out for nerfs/buffs is this:

 

 

"Why do you want to balance this? It's a PVE game, it doesn't need balance. Stupid face."

 

 

 

Okay well, do you want your game to go from warframe to FOTMframe?

 

If there is not weapon balance in-game then players will trend towards the OP FOTM weaponry. This means that you're going to wind up going into 4 man co-op sessions and finding everyone only using Kunai. In for predicting nerfs.

 

 

Here is a better example: Prior the Hek/Shotgun nerf the most used weapon with the most kills scored was the Hek. This indicated that players got the Hek and just used it all the time - it was a great gun, fantastically overpowered. Unfortunately every player, their mum, cat, dog, gerbil, left shoe and toilet roll used the hek. Every match you went into mid-progression you had, at the least, one player using the Hek if not 3 of them - 4 if you were using one. This went against the grain of what the developers are aiming for - they want the game community to be diverse and use all of the weapons - not just one weapon because it's OP.

 

 

TL:DR You're right, they shouldn't nerf weapons. Instead the devs should take all the weapons we have away and give us a big red button that eliminates all enemies, collects the artifact, destroys the reactor, rescues the hostage, captures the target, redirects the ship and captures all the data nodes - and then teleports us to the escape pod. In 1 second of starting the map. In fact, the button goes off by itself.

 

Idk. I use the kunai with ash and I still die soloing. Maybe I'm just bad, but I don't really see a need to nerf it.

[Shockness]

Kunai is hard to aim, only low distances it nice and i rather use my braton over the kunai still

[BadAimbot]

A common argument is that weapons, warframes, enemies, etc should be buffed to the level of those that are out of line instead of nerfing. While in theory it seems like a logical alternative, there are more OP things than UP ones. Buffing the other things takes much more effort, considering just how many things are encompassed by the balance in this game.

[Vyra]

An argument I see occurring far too often in threads relating to nerfs, buffs and players suggesting weapon changes or calling out for nerfs/buffs is this:

 

 

"Why do you want to balance this? It's a PVE game, it doesn't need balance. Stupid face."

 

 

 

Okay well, do you want your game to go from warframe to FOTMframe?

 

If there is not weapon balance in-game then players will trend towards the OP FOTM weaponry. This means that you're going to wind up going into 4 man co-op sessions and finding everyone only using Kunai. In for predicting nerfs.

 

 

Here is a better example: Prior the Hek/Shotgun nerf the most used weapon with the most kills scored was the Hek. This indicated that players got the Hek and just used it all the time - it was a great gun, fantastically overpowered. Unfortunately every player, their mum, cat, dog, gerbil, left shoe and toilet roll used the hek. Every match you went into mid-progression you had, at the least, one player using the Hek if not 3 of them - 4 if you were using one. This went against the grain of what the developers are aiming for - they want the game community to be diverse and use all of the weapons - not just one weapon because it's OP.

 

 

TL:DR You're right, they shouldn't nerf weapons. Instead the devs should take all the weapons we have away and give us a big red button that eliminates all enemies, collects the artifact, destroys the reactor, rescues the hostage, captures the target, redirects the ship and captures all the data nodes - and then teleports us to the escape pod. In 1 second of starting the map. In fact, the button goes off by itself.

Because i bet we wil get PvP some day ....

look people would like to spend more real cash just to get a epeen and to degrade others ... and since money ruined all the online games i know of, i think it will reach Warframe too ... earlier or later....maybe im wrong and DE has a better attitude... but  im afraid that many peopel will begg for PvP just to proove themselfs to others over the internet..

Edited May 28, 2013 by Vyra

[Kantazo]

Nerf is the shortcut (easy way out) of a DE's trouble trying to balance the game.

[Blatantfool]

Nerf is the shortcut (easy way out) of a DE's trouble trying to balance the game.

 

 That isn't really true. There are limitations to how strong DE can allow players to get before players are able to crush content too quickly. Whenever a balancing issue comes about DE has to weigh the best way to address the imbalance of power. That thread I linked above has a pretty decent explanation of the logic that goes behind buff/nerf issues.

[Kantazo]

 That isn't really true. There are limitations to how strong DE can allow players to get before players are able to crush content too quickly. Whenever a balancing issue comes about DE has to weigh the best way to address the imbalance of power. That thread I linked above has a pretty decent explanation of the logic that goes behind buff/nerf issues.

a Good example of my point the Nerf of Rhinos, they rushed into it and then they have to refixed it. It didn't need to have been done in first place.

[Blatantfool]

a Good example of my point the Nerf of Rhinos, they rushed into it and then they have to refixed it. It didn't need to have been done in first place.

 

 Only that isn't true, because Godmode isn't exactly something Developers are going to want to leave in their game moving forwards.

 

 The first change to Iron Skin met DE's needs, but not the needs of the Community, so they changed it again with the new Feedback and it is back to being fantastic.

[Notso]

a Good example of my point the Nerf of Rhinos, they rushed into it and then they have to refixed it.

True.

 

It didn't need to have been done in first place.

Utter bollocks.

[Worira]

 Only that isn't true, because Godmode isn't exactly something Developers are going to want to leave in their game moving forwards.

 

 The first change to Iron Skin met DE's needs, but not the needs of the Community, so they changed it again with the new Feedback and it is back to being fantastic.

 

Well, no, it's actually even worse than it was before.

[Code_Grey]

Because i bet we wil get PvP some day ....

look people would like to spend more real cash just to get a epeen and to degrade others ... and since money ruined all the online games i know of, i think it will reach Warframe too ... earlier or later....maybe im wrong and DE has a better attitude... but  im afraid that many peopel will begg for PvP just to proove themselfs to others over the internet..

 

Dojo Duelling, and I've already seen posts saying 'pls balance pvp'. I feel all the balance issues should just come from the players. Ash's invisiblity is OP? Players should just set ground rules to not use it. Simple as. Don't give DE extra work for something you can work out amongst yourselves. I do agree nerfing is needed, but I prefer well thought out adjustments rather than plain number reductions.

[Blatantfool]

Well, no, it's actually even worse than it was before.

 

 Sure, if your timing is poor.

[Feneckus]

Not really the point of this thread, but the Hek wasn't even close to being OP.

A pre buff Latron was still more powerful than a pre nerf Hek.

And yet for some reason they buffed it AND introduced a Latron Prime.

Overused would have been a better word. But then it has nothing to do with balance, which I agree is pretty important, no matter the game.

[Worira]

 Sure, if your timing is poor.

 

Or you're playing anywhere high level and actually want to use Rhino to tank, rather than die slightly less fast.

[Blatantfool]

Or you're playing anywhere high level and actually want to use Rhino to tank, rather than die slightly less fast.

 

 Not noticing any problem here. You can't facetank anymore, yeah. That sucks. But it isn't an unreasonable change.

[Kantazo]

Again  and I will ignore the bullock offense, Rhino didn't need nerf, some areas in the game (bosses, mobs etc needed a buff). In this area we are right now, Solar system I consider it learning ground, a starter point where the DEs can see what works or not, sort of a test lab. Now create a brand new area Alpha Centauri system where the bosses and mobs are tougher and Rhino will face a challenge. That could have been an easier solution, unlock a new solar system that could have been the solution

[Worira]

Considering there's no non-face way for Rhino to tank, yes, it really is. The various feedback threads have gone into quite a bit of detail on why the latest iteration of Iron Skin is unacceptable.

[Blatantfool]

Again and I will ignore the bullock offense, Rhino didn't need nerf, some areas in the game (bosses, mobs etc needed a buff). In this area we are right now, Solar system I consider it learning ground, a starter point where the DEs can see what works or not, sort of a test lab. Now create a brand new area Alpha Centauri system where the bosses and mobs are tougher and Rhino will face a challenge. That could have been an easier solution, unlock a new solar system that could have been the solution

You'd be complaining about that if they gave it to you.

Say they DID make a new System with enemies that COULD kill Rhino despite Pre-nerf Iron Skin. You'd be complaining because "What is the point of Iron Skin if they'll kill me anyway".

Your solution is an extremely poor one. It wouldn't have the effect you are saying it would.

Considering there's no non-face way for Rhino to tank, yes, it really is. The various feedback threads have gone into quite a bit of detail on why the latest iteration of Iron Skin is unacceptable.

Then maybe DE will continue to work on it. We'll see.

[Kantazo]

Why not, Solar System training grounds, new Solar System really good stuff, new mods to compensate etc etc, why limit the game to just Solar System?

[neKroMancer]

There is only one argument when player feels there is an impending nerf- Why don't you buff everything?

Buff everything isn't an option. When you buff everything to the standard of one OP weapon, the entire challenge and difficulty will be non-existent. Developer has to buff the AI in order to balance the increase in player's power which will ultimately lead into power creep. Moreover, buff everything will resulted in expectation of future items to be standardized around the current buffed standard (or better). Thus more powercreep.

I agree that balance is both nerf and buff. Nerf isn't an easy way out of trouble. It's a hard way to do it. Developer knows that they're difinitely going to implement something that is against the desire of playerbase in order to keep the game balance intact. No one wants to do that to consumers. So far, DE seem to struggle in finding the balance in term of number and mechanic. An admirable attempt from a small team of developers. They promised that frame will be reviewed and there will be buff to compensate which is a good sign that they're not going FUBAR.

As a player, we need to look at balance analytically and objectively. When something start to dominate the field/render other things useless/kill the game's challenge and difficulty then don't believe that there won't be balance change for it. There will be.

Be prepare.

[Blatantfool]

Why not, Solar System training grounds, new Solar System really good stuff, new mods to compensate etc etc, why limit the game to just Solar System?

 

  You misunderstood what I told you. Reread. The new system isn't the issue.