(Idea) Tiberon Crit Buff

[KnightCole]

I want a Tiberon based LMG!!!

 

all the TIberon's stats with like 24 acc and 100 round mag.  Make it so!!

[(PSN)MrNishi]

...

irrelevant, as any Weapon can use such methods, making them all still pretty equal once you've done that.

specific situational bonuses aren't factored into objective stats.

...

Continous weapons cannot utilize Mutalist Quanta Bubbles as it treats the bubbles as a wall-type object. No crit chance bidd nor radiation applied to beam/projectile.

Weapons like AkBronco Prime or other weapons that normally would be built for high status; I tend to think they are not worth removing status mods to slot Crit damage mods to benefit from the increased crit chance.

Looking at Harpak vs Tiberon

Same base crit damage multiplier of 2.0x

Tiberon's base status of 2.5% is significantly lower than Harpak's 10%

Base crit chance is 5% on Tiberon and 15% on Harpak

If both weapons are built straight damage with Serration, Split Chamber, 4-90% Elementals, and Shred that leaves 1 slot available.

If Vital Sense is the last mod slotted with Arcane Aveneger equipped you have Tiberon with 35% Crit chance and 4.4x crit multiplier with more Raw Damage & Harpak with 45% Crit chance and same 4.4x crit multiplier with lower raw damage, but 7.5% more status.

Harpak is considered the more crit oriented Burst Rifle: Using the above build on both weapons would the Harpak as the crit-oriented weapon, be superior to the Tiberon? Would it be worth it to slot Point Strike in place of a damage mod to further boost crit chance?

[Harpak with Point Strike gets 37.5% crit chance. 67.5% with Arcane Avenger..is it worth losing a 90% elemental or Shred??]

The Busrton Prime with similar setup would be inferior to Tiberon mainly due yo Buraton Prime being more status bias and having lower raw damage and lower Crit damage multiplier.

From my testing weapons with higher base damage and higher crit damage multipliers benefit from Arcane Avenegr better than weapons that seem to be more Status oriented with low crit damage multipliers.

Nukor greatly benefits from Arcane Avenger because of base 4.0x crit damage multiplier. I won't say Spectra and Nukor benefit the same from Arcane Avenger. The extra crit chance greatly favors the Nukor. Even those the 2 weapons have objectively similar base DPS.

Mutalist Quanta does not benefit from Arcane Avenger like other weapons and is wasted.

Of the Burst-fire Rifles aside from Sybaris....I see Tiberon benefiting the most in-game from greatly increased crit-chance. Straight damage + Shred & Vital Sense just seems to jave better results for me on Tiberon than Burston Prime/Harpak/Paracyst/Hind.

(Burtson Prime and Paracyst seem to perform better in-game when built for status rather than straight damage+Crit damage)

[taiiat]

-snip-

literally every single word in that post was Off Topic. please learn to stay On Topic.

Edited October 7, 2015 by taiiat

[onemoonlight]

"Hey guize, lets gibe crit to a minimum damage weapon."

[RealPandemonium]

literally every single word in that post was Off Topic. please learn to stay On Topic.

MrNishi's posts are really informative; he can't post that stuff enough on these forums.  Again, he is driving home the potential of crit stats on a high damage weapon which was given crappy crit stats so that it wouldn't be overpowered.  If they did give Tiberon crits, they would probably hit the base damage, which would lower the maxcase currently available via Arcane Avenger.  

[taiiat]

If they did give Tiberon crits, they would probably hit the base damage, which would lower the maxcase currently available via Arcane Avenger.  

not necessary if the Crits are for rewarding Marksmanship instead of making it into a Crit Weapon. (he's still spouting Off Topic subjects, without addressing anything On Topic - and since they're completely Off Topic has no useful information whatsoever. if he wants to write these things down, use General Discussion or something).

 

i'm feeling like a broken record here.

Edited October 7, 2015 by taiiat

[RealPandemonium]

not necessary if the Crits are for rewarding Marksmanship instead of making it into a Crit Weapon. 

Being a crit weapon = rewarding marksmanship, unless it's an explosive weapon, because of the disparity between headshots and non-headshots.  What distinction could there be, if any?

[taiiat]

Being a crit weapon = rewarding marksmanship

high Crit Stats don't reward Marksmanship, they just weld Crit Mods onto your Weapon. you get extra for Weakpoints, but you get a lot extra even if you don't shoot there.

 

'low' Crit Stats reward Marksmanship without welding Crit Mods.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

literally every single word in that post was Off Topic. please learn to stay On Topic.

Most of that post was comparing Harpak (Crit Burst Rifle) to Tiberon

Opening Post and 3rd Post by Vougue were towards making the Tiberon have higher crit chance to be modded differently from other Burst-fire rifles.

I even mentioned the other Busrt-fire rifles in the same post saying some of them benfit more from a Status build.

The 3-or 4 paragraphs about Extraneous Crit chance mechanics was in reply to you saying all weapons behave the same from Arcane Aveneger/Mutalist Quanta Bubbles thus not changing/altering a weapon build with such mechanics in use.

Tiberon has decent crit damage multiplier, currently, high accuracy, + high Raw damage.

-Base crit chance is low , which is what seems to be what Vougue(OP) wants changed

[From reading Opening post]

I suggested Arcane Avenger, because it specifically addresses the low crit-chance issues while retaining Tiberons posotives of high accuracy, high crit damage multiplier, and high base damage.

Which means only a Single Crit Mod would be required rather than the usual Point Strike plus Vital sense.

Vougue seems to be opposed to a crit buff that is the oppsite of higher crit chance:

Less Crit-chance like 2.5% but higher Crit Damage like 3.5x

(Which would be more like the Nukor...)

There is currently a way to increase crit-chance in game without mods, but there is not a crit damage multiplier boost.

Mid-High Crit chance with low Crit damage multiplier (What Vougue suggested in opening post)vs Low Crit Chance with mid-High Crit Damage multiplier(How Current Tiberon is)

[Extreme example would be something like (45% base crit-chance with 1.2x Crit damage multiplier) vs (1% base crit-chance with 4.0x Crit damage multiplier)

Would allow for a Red Crit Tiberon vs a Raw Damage Tiberon that can have high burst if a crit is landed.

Point Strike + Vital Sense

(112.5% crit chance with 2.64x crit damage multiplier) vs (2.5% crit chance with 8.8x Crit damage multiplier)]

(Both reward using accuracy on enemy weakpoints, especially when a crit gets the weakpoint modifier....difference being Arcane Avenger benefits the low crit chance with high damage multiier more than High crit chance and low damage multiplier)

[RealPandemonium]

high Crit Stats don't reward Marksmanship, they just weld Crit Mods onto your Weapon. you get extra for Weakpoints, but you get a lot extra even if you don't shoot there.

 

'low' Crit Stats reward Marksmanship without welding Crit Mods.

What's a "low" crit stat?  If your crit stats are low then there's just RNG marring the potential satisfaction of landing critical headshots.  

[taiiat]

-snip-

forget it, from now on i'll just skim over the Off Topic posts. because they're Off Topic.

 

 

What's a "low" crit stat?  If your crit stats are low then there's just RNG marring the potential satisfaction of landing critical headshots.  

'low' is what everyone else calls anything that isn't super giant.

even though statistically it's not that simple, Projectiles per Shot and Rate of Fire are big factors into what Crit Stats are low, useful, or a must have.

 

so the 'low' i'm referring to (that isn't really low because of Projectiles per Shot and Rate of Fire), is 10%.

yes, you won't get constant Weakpoint Crits. to get constant Weakpoint Crits though, you must weld Crit Mods to the Weapon.

 

if you want to have more reliable Crits, Crit Damage needs to be dropped lower than it already is. so if you want a 25% Crit Chance, Crit Damage would drop to 1.0-1.1x, and 30%+ would need to start dropping Physical Damage.

but... all you're really doing is forcing Players to use Crit Mods then, when they aren't now. i don't have intention of flipping the theme of a Weapon on it's head like Synoid Gammacore. if others would like to, i can't support that.

Tiberon has a theme and design as it is - throwing that out of balance isn't a positive thing.

[Ve1indian]

Tiberon has a theme and design as it is - throwing that out of balance isn't a positive thing.

I'd have to disagree with changing the Tiberon's balance being a negative thing due to its current theme.

 

Mainly because the Tiberon's utility stats (the stats that make the gun function/feel the way it does) would be more mechanically suited to different crit stats. High accuracy, short burst, good base damage, and low recoil would all fit a consistent crit chance with low crit multiplier. With these stats, headshots are rewarded notably more than bodyshots, but missed headshots from the burst's bullet spread won't do as little damage comparatively (due to the higher base damage). It would make the Tiberon a consistent mid to long range weapon where you could reliably kill decent groups of weaker enemies, but you'll still be able to focus down small amounts of heavy units.

 

With the Tiberon's relatively low burst to magazine ratio, consistency is key. So having inconsistent crit chance, but high crit damage would actively hinder the function the other stats give the weapon. With the aforementioned stat changes, the constant downtime from reloading is nicely balanced by having great burst damage capabilities for multiple situations. Single bursts could consistently kill weaker enemies, but heavier units would take around 3. So you'd have to pick and choose your shots to use the gun effectively, and your clip management wouldn't be screwed by RNG.

Marksmanship is rewarded, effectiveness doesn't rely much on chance, and the player still has to choose their targets/shoot wisely.

 

high Crit Stats don't reward Marksmanship, they just weld Crit Mods onto your Weapon. you get extra for Weakpoints, but you get a lot extra even if you don't shoot there.

 

'low' Crit Stats reward Marksmanship without welding Crit Mods.

Crit weapons DO reward marksmanship due to their consistency in rewarding the player for headshots, and the headshot to bodyshot damage disparity punishing bad aim. Crit weapons are also limited to certain mods, but every type of specialized weapon is due to the mod system being too basic. On the other hand, if a weapon isn't limited in mod choice, the outcome of any kind of build with that weapon is mediocre in comparison to a specialized weapon.

 

Low crit stats are unreliable and thus fail to consistently reward the player, in the case of crit chance at least.

All low crit stats do is make crit mods pointless to put on a weapon, when more use can be gained by using other mods. Actively welding on different mods that aren't crit based.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Vougue

[RealPandemonium]

so the 'low' i'm referring to (that isn't really low because of Projectiles per Shot and Rate of Fire), is 10%.

yes, you won't get constant Weakpoint Crits. to get constant Weakpoint Crits though, you must weld Crit Mods to the Weapon.

So, to get good crit performance on a "low crit" weapon you have to weld crit mods to the weapon.   But (in your own words,)  to get the most out of a "high crit" weapon, you also have to weld crit mods to the weapon?

 

So in the end, what's the difference?  If you add relevant crit stats to the Tiberon, crit mods will help to maximize its potential when aiming well.  Its performance will increase dramatically for those who can consistently headshot, and moderately otherwise.  

 

Are you suggesting that Tiberon's crit multiplier be removed so that only headshots are rewarded?

 

Also, MrNishi's posts are all relevant to the discussion and may be illuminating to those who are unfamiliar with game mechanics.

Edited October 8, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Aglethe]

So, to get good crit performance on a "low crit" weapon you have to weld crit mods to the weapon.   But (in your own words,)  to get the most out of a "high crit" weapon, you also have to weld crit mods to the weapon?

 

So in the end, what's the difference?  If you add relevant crit stats to the Tiberon, crit mods will help to maximize its potential when aiming well.  Its performance will increase dramatically for those who can consistently headshot, and moderately otherwise.

 

I think what Taiiat is trying to argue for are crit stats that would result in a loss of dps on body shots (if you slotted crit mods) but an increase if you're pulling consistent head shots. The idea being that it would allow for the possibility of mod build diversity.

 

Namely, are you willing to give up some amount of on paper dps in the hopes of gambling it back (and then some) with your head shoting abilities ?

 

Whereas if you give a weapon "conventional" crit weapon stats you always mod for crit because it benefits your dps in either case.

 

I don't know if there is a statistical value you can set for that that will really work and be satisfying at play in game, without players being able to abuse it with things like Arcane Avenger (I'm in agreement with you by the way on MrNishii's relevance and contributions here) and Volt's shield and what not. But that seems to be what Taiiat is hoping for DE to try to achieve.

 

Or maybe I'm reading it wrong, but that's my take on it anyway.

[Ve1indian]

I don't know if there is a statistical value you can set for that that will really work and be satisfying at play in game, without players being able to abuse it with things like Arcane Avenger 

They could remove crits entirely, then change crit mods to add weakpoint damage (for the crit damage mods), and weakpoint status bonuses (for the crit chance mods). Instead of being RNG with a headshot crit modifier.

[Aglethe]

They could remove crits entirely, then change crit mods to add weakpoint damage (for the crit damage mods), and weakpoint status bonuses (for the crit chance mods). Instead of being RNG with a headshot crit modifier.

 

That's how it works in pvp currently, (well, minus being able to use the crit mods. ;) ) no rng crits, just headshot damage multipliers. I don't know that they'd impliment that in pve though.

 

Maybe as a mod for sniper rifles if anything I suppose ?

[Aeraxis]

I would like to see this weapon to get innate punch through, and bumped to 15% crit chance.