Mag's Pull

[Malkav]

So you admit that realism is irrelevant in this case, right? You do realize that's the entire point of what I was saying?

Where did I say "skills should only be used on opponents"? Where did I say Pull shouldn't be targetable on allies? I said Pull was underpowered and I have a friend who plays Mag who feels the same way.

(Well, except for the fact that given you listed 'trolling' as some of the 'advantages' of this skill you clearly shouldn't be allowed to keep it)

You are spending a lot of time pretending that a skill having extremely niche uses makes it good when it takes up 25% of the frame's four power slots. This is not convincing anyone that this power is some kind of useful thing that doesn't need to be buffed.

FYI: I have gotten to Pluto. I have cleared Pluto missions with a Lv13 Ash. (Yes I had proed weapons, I'm not that much of a masochist).

Why are you so bad at defending your position or attacking mine? My position wasn't "PULL SHOULD BE MADE SO THAT IT CAN'T MANIPULATE THE BATTLEFIELD!" My position is that any direct damage Pull provides should be immediate, easily targeted, and powerful. And maybe if you use it on friendlies it should also restore shields.

But Loki isn't underpowered. You know why? Because he has extremely useful powers. Decoy's ability to literally eliminate any enemy threat heading your way for a few seconds is life-saving. Switch teleport is underpowered but eh. Maybe they'll change its cost. Invis is pretty awesome. And Radial Disarm is a ridiculously good way of eliminating an entire room full of enemies by forcing them to chase you in melee and walk into your sword/axe/staff.

You started a thread implying that Pull was overpowered and whining "PLEASE DON'T NERF IT T_T". Someone suggested that pulling someone directly to you should kill them. You thought this should require 'skill'. I chimed in pointing out that doing so would make Pull less powerful in a direct damage role than already extremely underpowered skills. And then you spent this whole time arguing that no, it wouldn't, because REALISM or arguing complete irrelevancies like how it has utility uses.

Well yes it has utility. That's the only reason dealing only single target damage is acceptable!

You know what's even more awesome? Not having to actually have "precise timing" in a game with lag to do this. Single-target direct damage is pretty weak, I would accept it for Pull because it has utility uses. Still expensive but hey, if people like you don't think it's underpowered who am I to disagree (until every other frame gets powers worth using and you start whining about how it's underpowered, at which point I can go "You brought this onto yourself"). Yes, this combo wouldn't be available to all the frames, but only Mag could use it with pull.

That is totally awesome. Let me imagine a Tenno meeting.

MAG: "Look guys! I know a new trick! I can pull someone torwards me and stab them if I stab them at the right time!"

EMBER: *yawn* "Really now? So you can actually hurt things. Man I could do that years ago, and it's still weak. But at least if I miss with Fireball I don't get knocked on my &#! for a second and take a bunch of damage."

ASH: *yawn* "Like Shuriken, for example? Except my shurikens are already weak but they at least ignore armor, have long range, and don't need HYPER PRECISE TIMING. Seriously? That doesn't even count as a trick."

LOKI: "Tell me when you get a real power instead of a parlor trick."

If you do not understand the point the point is that if someone wants to use Pull as a direct damage power it should be a simple and effective direct damage power without requiring 'combos' or even pressing E.

I just can't comprehend why you think you are doing anything but repeatedly. Missing. The. Point.

I'm quite bored of you not seeing the point. Lets continue this conversation when new levels are added and/or PVP, ok? Don't worry I'll find you.

[MJ12]

I'm quite bored of you not seeing the point. Lets continue this conversation when new levels are added and/or PVP, ok? Don't worry I'll find you.

Look, your point, from what I can tell from your posts, is that Pull has utility use and then you're using it as an excuse to be smug at everyone who points out that it's extremely underpowered and useful only in niche situations, and that you're arguing against it being actually useful for single target damage because you want it to require ~skill~ that no other Warframe needs to get subpar DPS at the cost of non-regenerating energy.

If you have an actual argument for how being able to automatically kill light enemies by pulling them into your sword would be horrifically unbalancing to the game, make it. Because there is none. It just means that outside of the niche uses for Pull you've summarized (and all of them are extremely niche) it has use as a single-target DPS method.

But sure. You can keep pretending Pull is some sort of uberskill when your OP is basically "LOOK AT HOW AMAZING PULL IS! I CAN USE IT IN THESE NICHE SITUATIONS WHICH ARE ENTIRELY UP TO CHANCE!" That's not manipulating the battlefield. That's gambling on what the battlefield situation is like.

Rhino Stomp is manipulating the battlefield. Trinity's powers manipulate the battlefield. Loki manipulates the battlefield. Pull... really isn't particularly great at it.

Edited January 20, 2013 by MJ12

[Malkav]

Look, your point, from what I can tell from your posts, is that Pull has utility use and then you're using it as an excuse to be smug at everyone who points out that it's extremely underpowered and useful only in niche situations, and that you're arguing against it being actually useful for single target damage because you want it to require ~skill~ that no other Warframe needs to get subpar DPS at the cost of non-regenerating energy.

If you have an actual argument for how being able to automatically kill light enemies by pulling them into your sword would be horrifically unbalancing to the game, make it. Because there is none. It just means that outside of the niche uses for Pull you've summarized (and all of them are extremely niche) it has use as a single-target DPS method.

But sure. You can keep pretending Pull is some sort of uberskill when your OP is basically "LOOK AT HOW AMAZING PULL IS! I CAN USE IT IN THESE NICHE SITUATIONS WHICH ARE ENTIRELY UP TO CHANCE!" That's not manipulating the battlefield. That's gambling on what the battlefield situation is like.

Rhino Stomp is manipulating the battlefield. Trinity's powers manipulate the battlefield. Loki manipulates the battlefield. Pull... really isn't particularly great at it.

My whoole point revolved on the fact that I can imagine mag in a PVP situation, where spaming pull would leave your enemy stunlocked with a skill that can't miss. That's enough to make it op. I wanted to wait till PVP came out so you would see it too. The don't nerf it bit was a joke pointed on the devs who obviously didn't think that it was OP. But if you can use a skill that costs 25 energy, to drag a player towards you so he gets stuned and you slash away and repeat the proces till he dies.

Just for the record I imagine that the only frame that could win against Mag 1v1 would be Rhino (but he's very op compared to other frames).

The whole concept of the skill could be simplified in this way:

If you had a move in chess where you move an enemy piece and that piece can't move on your opponents next turn.

I had to use chess as an example cause all the pieces "deal damage" in different ways and adding such a move would change the concept of the game. Thats what pull and swap do (even ash's teleport) (i'm not considering charge and slash dash because they are skill shots) , they make the game imbalanced and harder to balance, but more fun in general. If every frame had a skill that changed the position of the pieces on the board (metaphorically), that would be awsome (and easier to balance).

[MJ12]

My whoole point revolved on the fact that I can imagine mag in a PVP situation, where spaming pull would leave your enemy stunlocked with a skill that can't miss. That's enough to make it op. I wanted to wait till PVP came out so you would see it too. The don't nerf it bit was a joke pointed on the devs who obviously didn't think that it was OP. But if you can use a skill that costs 25 energy, to drag a player towards you so he gets stuned and you slash away and repeat the proces till he dies.

Just for the record I imagine that the only frame that could win against Mag 1v1 would be Rhino (but he's very op compared to other frames).

The whole concept of the skill could be simplified in this way:

If you had a move in chess where you move an enemy piece and that piece can't move on your opponents next turn.

I had to use chess as an example cause all the pieces "deal damage" in different ways and adding such a move would change the concept of the game. Thats what pull and swap do (even ash's teleport) (i'm not considering charge and slash dash because they are skill shots) , they make the game imbalanced and harder to balance, but more fun in general. If every frame had a skill that changed the position of the pieces on the board (metaphorically), that would be awsome (and easier to balance).

The problem is that this isn't an argument for not enhancing Pull. This is an argument that the game is not PvP balanced and would need massive reworks if PvP is ever anything more than Borderlands-style dueling. Yes, Pull would be unfun in PvP, but that's not a problem unless the game tries to sell itself on its PvP.

[Malkav]

The problem is that this isn't an argument for not enhancing Pull. This is an argument that the game is not PvP balanced and would need massive reworks if PvP is ever anything more than Borderlands-style dueling. Yes, Pull would be unfun in PvP, but that's not a problem unless the game tries to sell itself on its PvP.

Don't you get it? Pull ain't gona be like this no matter what you and me say. More likely it will become a skillshot that does dmg and no stun. And I'm not even posting on this thread what enchances pull (this one is for that https://forums.warfr...__20#entry40817 ). If you like I can copy paste all your rants to that post, so they can feel your pain.

I just saw pull's potential as a PVP skill aswell as a fun PVE skill, that's what this post is all about.

When the mobs get a better A.I. U'll be glad you have a mag on your team, not much can be solved with just a shurkiken in the face. And thats only if the skill stays this way, It will probably be nothing like the original when the game realeses.

[Aurores]

You can also use her pull skill on those enemys that are using ballistic shields. It will take shields away from them.

[MJ12]

Don't you get it? Pull ain't gona be like this no matter what you and me say. More likely it will become a skillshot that does dmg and no stun. And I'm not even posting on this thread what enchances pull (this one is for that https://forums.warfr...__20#entry40817 ). If you like I can copy paste all your rants to that post, so they can feel your pain.

Pull isn't going to be like what no matter what we say? FYI: Ember got significant buffs because of people saying things. The Gorgon got nerfed because of people saying things. Pro disappeared because of people saying things. People saying things gets the game changed in Warframe.

I just saw pull's potential as a PVP skill aswell as a fun PVE skill, that's what this post is all about.

Your initial post maybe. And even so, as your 'laser door trolling' shows, pull's potential as a PvP skill is causing people to quit as soon as they see a Mag on the opposing team.

When the mobs get a better A.I. U'll be glad you have a mag on your team, not much can be solved with just a shurkiken in the face. And thats only if the skill stays this way, It will probably be nothing like the original when the game realeses.

Because this better AI will make 'not killing a mob' better than 'killing a mob'? Somehow? What, will they be willing to accept our surrenders if we don't hurt them? Generally speaking, killing something is better than just temporarily disabling it, which is why Loki's decoy literally stops everyone in sight from aggroing you-because it doesn't deal damage, so it's necessarily better at disabling enemies than a damage-dealing power.

Pull doesn't have that level of utility and it doesn't have the level of damage of Charge/Slash Dash, which are approximately the only skills which are somewhere around where skills should be unless they implement regenerating energy.

Edited January 21, 2013 by MJ12

[Malkav]

Pull isn't going to be like what no matter what we say? FYI: Ember got significant buffs because of people saying things. The Gorgon got nerfed because of people saying things. Pro disappeared because of people saying things. People saying things gets the game changed in Warframe.

Your initial post maybe. And even so, as your 'laser door trolling' shows, pull's potential as a PvP skill is causing people to quit as soon as they see a Mag on the opposing team.

Because this better AI will make 'not killing a mob' better than 'killing a mob'? Somehow? What, will they be willing to accept our surrenders if we don't hurt them? Generally speaking, killing something is better than just temporarily disabling it, which is why Loki's decoy literally stops everyone in sight from aggroing you-because it doesn't deal damage, so it's necessarily better at disabling enemies than a damage-dealing power.

Pull doesn't have that level of utility and it doesn't have the level of damage of Charge/Slash Dash, which are approximately the only skills which are somewhere around where skills should be unless they implement regenerating energy.

You must understand a mind set of someone who makes a game, they are not going to use an idea on the forum because enough people voted for it, they either like the idea or don't . In which case they do whatever they want. Sugestions are apprecited but not always recognized. They are not going to rate your idea by seeing how much you rant about it either.

And what about the rest I said, did you just look through my post and selected what you can disagree with and ranted about that?

We'll see if pull becomes more usefull with harder levels and A.I. not just by buffing it. Till then let's hope they consider adding some in the next patch.

[Mockeryangel]

Reverse psychology,eh? It really does need a boost, though. At least let me pull enemies over railings to their doom, the skill is begging for it!

It needs to be able to do this, otherwise it's kinda mediocre(well less mediocre) the only enemies I want in melee so far are ones I can 1/2shot so that's a waste of energy. I've only fought the first few bosses but so far I haven't see a need to separate bosses from trash mobs, stuff like ancients,machinnergunners and napalmers I want at range so that's a meh use of it. I basically only use pull to get rid of grineer ballistic shields but now my Braton has puncture so that use is gone.Mag as whole is dissapointing to me so far except for crush but she's my highest level Warframe though Trinity is not too far behind.Now I've read through the thread I have to say I agree 100% with MJ12 pull sucks arse, with puncture on my Braton I have exactly one decent use for it which is dragging allies bodies from enemies, which is a situation that's only popped up for my team like twice. It may just be me but imo Mag is underwhelming I only ever use Crush so far(only just got bullet attractor at lvl15).

Edited January 21, 2013 by Mockeryangel