Clan Issue & Perfect Balance No Matter The Size!

[Thypari2013]

TL;DR: People seem not to read or understand what I am saying: Example:

1000 member clan. Disbands members so they are only 50. They construct the complete Dojo for 50 member prices. They reinvite 950 members. All rooms in the Dojo go back into construction mode and resources equal to the new 950 members must be repayed. (see Solution B Method 1)

 

 

Other Games

Group content has o be done with 10, 20 or even 40 people.

Max. Clan Size: 200

 

Warframe

Every content can be done with max. 4 people.

Max. Clan size: unlimited

 

Issues

Balancing minimum size and maximum size. Minimum mustn't have a disadvantage while Maximum mustn't have a advantage.

Clan size should reflect the content.

Clans are hoarding player rightnow to get Dojo stuff faster

 

Solutions

Solution A: Cap clans at 50 (easy)

 

Solution B: Balance maximum and minimum (hard)

Solution B Method 1:

Material Construction completely scales with player numbers. Once a new player joins the clan all rooms are going into construction mode again and you have to pay the missing amounts. (New player check every 24h)

Solution B Method 2:

Construction costs nothing and only takes time. When a room is completed every Clanmember has to pay a one time "fee" in materials to be allowed to enter the room.

 

Conclusion

Solution B Method 1 seems the be the best solution no matter the clan size. 1 person clan or 10.000 persons clan.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Thypari2013

[Thypari2013]

No oppinions?

[Thypari2013]

push ^^

 

Come on guys this solution works with every size of a clan no matter if it is a 2 person clan or a 1000000000000 person clam

[Afetogbo]

I see some issues with this.

 

Material cost scaling with players count. Some of the early and hard core players I am sure have tons of resources. So they start a clan and make a gigantic dojo then invite everyone in to join. If they want to expand in the future they kick everyone out and swap leader ship between  members until they build want they build all the new rooms they want.

 

Asking players to play materials to enter a hallway that leads to a dead end..... well that kind of sucks.

 

A max of 50 players in a clan? That seems really low. I have been in guilds with hundreds of players but only 10 on at once during peek times.

 

The solution I came up with was to join a larger clan. Even if you hate clans you can Join one of the solo clans. If you have a group of friends that you want to be in a clan with chances are you have another way to communicate which is way better then the in game chat system so an in game clan which has no visible indication of being in the clan is not a requirement.

 

I think on creation of a clan choosing a player size from say 50 to infinite in a tiered system (50, 100, 250, 500, 1000, 2000, infinite) would be good for determining ones cost for building a dojo. If a clan wants to expand beyond its original size choice it will have to pay the additional material costs before accessing rooms (as you suggest). This is basicly what you suggested but would allow a tiered system for material cost and cut down on possible exploiting.

[Thypari2013]

I see some issues with this.

 

Material cost scaling with players count. Some of the early and hard core players I am sure have tons of resources. So they start a clan and make a gigantic dojo then invite everyone in to join. If they want to expand in the future they kick everyone out and swap leader ship between  members until they build want they build all the new rooms they want.

 

[...]

 

 

 

If they invite 1000 new members all rooms go into construction again and they have to pay the missing amounts. What is the problem with that?

It scales with the numbers of players.

[Dagnome]

So I assume your in a 10 man clan or not in one at all? Basically what I got from this post was "Screw big clans lets tear down them down and only allow 50 man clans because I have a small clan". See the problem with your suggestion is there are over 340 members in my clan, do you honestly expect me to say "OK guys well due to the forum whining we can only have 50 people in our clan so about 300 of you GTFO and go find a new home".

DE said that in their eyes 50 members is a small clan, but what people fail to realize is they are viewing the game with the "Big picture" in mind as opposed to seeing the game as the players see it now. They are taking into consideration the Meta game aspect and future contention we don't have access too. SO right now with just the dojo anything under 30 man clans are going to have to wait for dojo pieces but come Meta game I am fairly certain that DE would rather have a few hundred man clans then a thousand 50 man clans.

Also, the problem with your theory is your not taking into account that of those "1000 members" people are "Speed inviting" how many of them are actually contributing to the dojo or even are active in the game at all? I am willing to bet that 75% of these people trying to join the "Big clans" are just hoping for a free ride and not actually contributing to their clans growth and progression.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Dagnome

[Thypari2013]

So I assume your in a 10 man clan or not in one at all? Basically what I got from this post was "Screw big clans lets tear down them down and only allow 50 man clans because I have a small clan". See the problem with your suggestion is there are over 340 members in my clan, do you honestly expect me to say "OK guys well due to the forum whining we can only have 50 people in our clan so about 300 of you GTFO and go find a new home".

DE said that in their eyes 50 members is a small clan, but what people fail to realize is they are viewing the game with the "Big picture" in mind as opposed to seeing the game as the players see it now. They are taking into consideration the Meta game aspect and future contention we don't have access too. SO right now with just the dojo anything under 30 man clans are going to have to wait for dojo pieces but come Meta game I am fairly certain that DE would rather have a few hundred man clans then a thousand 50 man clans.

Also, the problem with your theory is your not taking into account that of those "1000 members" people are "Speed inviting" how many of them are actually contributing to the dojo or even are active in the game at all? I am willing to bet that 75% of these people trying to join the "Big clans" are just hoping for a free ride and not actually contributing to their clans growth and progression.

 

 

No these were different approaches. Approach a), approach b), solution b1 and solution b2.

The ones that are important are b1 and b2.

 

b in general allows clan no matter the size. 1 man clan or 10000 person clan.

b1 is a possible solution for the problem.

b2 is a possible solution for the problem.

 

I edited the 1. Post, maybe it is clearer now

Edited May 30, 2013 by Thypari2013

[Meltina]

Other Games

Group content has o be done with 10, 20 or even 40 people.

Max. Clan Size: 200

 

Warframe

Every content can be done with max. 4 people.

Max. Clan size: unlimited

 

Issues

Balancing minimum size and maximum size. Minimum mustn't have a disadvantage while Maximum mustn't have a advantage.

Clan size should reflect the content.

Clans are hoarding player rightnow to get Dojo stuff faster

 

Solutions

a) Cap clans at 50 (easy)

 

b) Balance maximum and minimum:

b1) Material Construction completely scales with player numbers. Once a new player joins the clan all rooms are going into construction mode again and you have to pay the missing amounts.

b2) Construction costs nothing and only takes time. When a room is completed every Clanmember has to pay a one time "fee" in materials to be allowed to enter the room.

Lol every time someone joins we have to pay the to construct more of the building. How the heck do you get anything done if you have a decent turnover rate in your clan. Having a cycle of new blood flowing in and culling of the inactives is how you keep a clan healthy. You don't want your clan to stagnate and die in a few months you need to actively recruit. Who wants to recruit if anytime you try to do something oops canceled build more of the building first. Sorry your duels are interrputed someone joined the clan so you need to throw materials in.

 

Still doesn't fix the problems with current dojos. Some people can solo turn in the mats to complete a dojo except the forma. Its not uncommon to have 200-300k resources by now if you were a closed beta player. 240k nanospores is a joke when some people have 800k sitting in their bags doing nothing.

[Phoenix86]

A clan of 200 ppl disband, 50 ppl make a new clan put all resources they have, leave, other 50 go in, put resources, leave... do this another 2 times so all 200 have used their resources... voila you have a dojo at 50 ppl's price and once complete you let all the other enter.

 

Scaling mats is too easly exploitable imho...

[Thypari2013]

Lol every time someone joins we have to pay the to construct more of the building. How the heck do you get anything done if you have a decent turnover rate in your clan. Having a cycle of new blood flowing in and culling of the inactives is how you keep a clan healthy. You don't want your clan to stagnate and die in a few months you need to actively recruit. Who wants to recruit if anytime you try to do something oops canceled build more of the building first. Sorry your duels are interrputed someone joined the clan so you need to throw materials in.

 

Still doesn't fix the problems with current dojos. Some people can solo turn in the mats to complete a dojo except the forma. Its not uncommon to have 200-300k resources by now if you were a closed beta player. 240k nanospores is a joke when some people have 800k sitting in their bags doing nothing.

 

Better not speed invite anyone. Speed inviting just to get a "healthy number" is bad imo.

Also if the clan number does not change (10 Tennos leave and 10 new Members) you have to repay nothin, because the size didn't change.

[Thypari2013]

A clan of 200 ppl disband, 50 ppl make a new clan put all resources they have, leave, other 50 go in, put resources, leave... do this another 2 times so all 200 have used their resources... voila you have a dojo at 50 ppl's price and once complete you let all the other enter.

 

Scaling mats is too easly exploitable imho...

 

You clearly didn't read.

200 clan disband. 50 ppl create the dojo. 150 new people join. All rooms go into contrsuction again and you have to pay the missing 150 people materials. Nothing to exploit.

[Meltina]

Without a clan cap theres no reason to actualy cull the clan list. They have no ui support to find the inactive members to cull them anyways. There is no last login date in the ui. Every single time you invite someone anyone doing anything in the clan hall will be interrupted and have to stop to insert resources. Pfft by running matches and asking if good players you meet are interested in joining the clan you can easily get a few people to join a day while still being polite and not blind inviting. If you multiply that by the number of people in the clan the clan grows exponetaily. It is just not realistic to have the buildings suddenly shut down because someone joined the clan. Oh the great hall no longer works become someone joined. Oh look all our reactors lost power too and then the labs and the dojo because the reactors lost power. The new member will have to pay for every single hallway, room and elevator, If it is a big clan and they actualy expand their dojo suddenly the costs becomes impossible for the new member to pay for it. You couldnt even walk around the dojo because hallways take power from the reactor.

[Deadly-Bagel]

Have a cap on clan size, but increase that size with "Barracks" or something. No cap on number of Barracks but cost to build increases linearly with each existing Barracks.

 

Send out a warning that this will be happening a month in advance, and then prevent new members joining if clan size is equal to or above cap.

[Thypari2013]

Without a clan cap theres no reason to actualy cull the clan list. They have no ui support to find the inactive members to cull them anyways. There is no last login date in the ui. Every single time you invite someone anyone doing anything in the clan hall will be interrupted and have to stop to insert resources. Pfft by running matches and asking if good players you meet are interested in joining the clan you can easily get a few people to join a day while still being polite and not blind inviting. If you multiply that by the number of people in the clan the clan grows exponetaily. It is just not realistic to have the buildings suddenly shut down because someone joined the clan. Oh the great hall no longer works become someone joined. Oh look all our reactors lost power too and then the labs and the dojo because the reactors lost power. The new member will have to pay for every single hallway, room and elevator, If it is a big clan and they actualy expand their dojo suddenly the costs becomes impossible for the new member to pay for it. You couldnt even walk around the dojo because hallways take power from the reactor.

 

But that's a problem of the UI. If you can see how long somebody was inactive. This problem is gone.

Yes, that's how it would work. You have to do some compromises because there is no trivial solution to balance a 1man clan and a 10.000 member clan. Either live with the problem that rooms "suddenly" don't work anymore OR take a semi-optimal solution where there is no possibility for clan sizes under 50 to get anything while clans with 2000+ members get everything in a second.

[Meltina]

But that's a problem of the UI. If you can see how long somebody was inactive. This problem is gone.

Yes, that's how it would work. You have to do some compromises because there is no trivial solution to balance a 1man clan and a 10.000 member clan. Either live with the problem that rooms "suddenly" don't work anymore OR take a semi-optimal solution where there is no possibility for clan sizes under 50 to get anything while clans with 2000+ members get everything in a second.

So the fact I could have contributed 2/3rds of all the nanospores for a dojo my self on the first day if means its impossible for a clan smaller than 50 people. I had closer to 1/5th to 1/10th of the other materials. You know they could have had added new drops and timesinks. If you needed 1000 feldrion and had to wait 5 days to craft the building it really wouldnt matter as you have 5 days before you can use the 1000 feldeon. The larger clan would collect it faster but the long time delay means the smaller clans catch up while in the research delay. The most lead the larger clan would get is the one building.

[Kantazo]

No oppinions?

No.

[Gestalt]

Material Construction completely scales with player numbers. Once a new player joins the clan all rooms are going into construction mode again and you have to pay the missing amounts. (New player check every 24h)

Solution B Method 2:

Construction costs nothing and only takes time. When a room is completed every Clanmember has to pay a one time "fee" in materials to be allowed to enter the room.

 

Conclusion

Solution B Method 1 seems the be the best solution no matter the clan size. 1 person clan or 10.000 persons clan.

People just don't seem to want to look at the solutions posted by others to counter possible exploits. Donno why.

The method you suggested (B1) that would take every room already constructed unusable again until the new member pays, every time a new player joins isn't practical. You might have a small clan in mind with this, but a large clan will constantly be inviting members.

Your method B2 is a lot better, but it doesn't have to change so drastically from the current system of materials upfront. I don't think DE likes the idea of "only pay for what you want" anyways (as in, if a member doesn't want anything from the dueling hall, why pay the mats to gain access?). They can just make it so if a 1000 member clan disbands and makes a 50 member clan (using your example), when the 50 members build stuff, they will cost what a 50member clan costs, but when the 950 others join, they will have to pay an upkeep cost to be able to use anything that was constructed before they joined. And these costs can be adjusted for the 1000-member clan costs, or something between the two costs.

DE is already onto cost-scaling, and they already mentioned stopping exploits like clan hopping is a priority when it comes to implementing the scaling, so we can just wait and see what they come up with.