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[DE]Rebecca

Developer Workshop: Saryn Ability Rework

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...and all of the sudden i realized something: DE's master-plan to stop/destroy spamming, the plan to stop Press4toWin.

 

The changes made on toggle ability frames, the rework of rhino hinted he will need more duration mods for iron skin and maybe even his other abilities, and now saryn.

The plan is to make "all" frames rely on duration, so efficient builds that use fleeting expertise become unused, hence stopping the molestation of the 4 button.

 

I feel bad for all my frames with efficient builds, but also hope this is the right path, we will have to wait and see, if this plan will provide the right end result.

This because, DE as recognized and accepted the weapon mod system is broken and needs a rework, but as far as frames modding, they haven't spoke of it yet, nor recognized frames also suffer from the same mandatory mod issues.

Edited by 7grims
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was just about to make a post about how the developer workshop has been dead for quite awhile too, wonder if DE can read thoughts...?

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So, I'm slightly confused if anything.

 

Will Negative duration builds still be a thing?

 

No, thats the point of these changes.

Duration will be needed to keep going the damage or the whatever debuff thingy they speak of, without duration i guess saryn's ult will only create a small insignificant damage burst.

Edited by 7grims

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Can miasma be an aoe duration effect like torrid vs target aoe?

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Speaking as a dedicated Saryn player who drifted away from Warframe quite a while ago, these changes are almost certain to draw me back to the game. They're carving out a clear niche for the frame, and an area in which she excels - a unique close-combat frame with the potential to play an interesting guerilla game. Run in, slap around some Venomed enemies to spread spores with Contagion, and then either bomb them all with Miasma or make an escape with Molt. I love the newfound synergy in her power set, which I'd previously complained was outright at odds with itself.

 

As it stands, I have only one question:

 

"Venom" refers to a non-infectious toxin secreted by an animal.

"Contagion" refers to a spreading disease.

 

With this in mind, why does the "Venom" power inflict a spreading disease that does Viral damage, while the "Contagion" power inflicts non-infectious Toxic damage, presumably by smearing poison on a weapon?

 

That seems like it should be exactly the other way around.

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Spores get instantly popped if you have Contagion running.

With a melee, yeah, everything else no. This hurts endgame viability (which they are obviously trying to give her) because instead of casting, popping from range, and cutting down weakened enemies from close range, it's casting and then getting at close range.

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Just one thing - can you make Venom proc and spread also on when an enemy afflicted with it dies? Right now I feel like there's no point using it (even if you are building for it) since if you're using a high damage weapon, they'll die outright without spreading it, even if you hit the orbs.

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Question: Will Miasma still deal Corrosive Damage, and if so will it also have a guaranteed corrosion Proc to accompany it? (Can't recall but I think the current form of miasma applies the proc, since all elemental abilities have 100% proc)

 

Also please consider adding mobile casting changes to Saryn D: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/548021-saryn-mobile-casting/

 

Looks like an exciting rework :)

Edited by RyanGo
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DERebecca will contagion possibly have better changes to it besides adding damage like making it reduces enemy accuracy or damage reduction?

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So it takes more preparation before she can nuke everything? hmm..I'm not sure now, I like the overall better dynamics of he ability... but isn't these changes followed the Limbo/Ember problem where the full damage takes too long to prepare and does not suit the game fluidity? But I guess I shouldn't comment before I play her yet. But just so you(DE) know that these are my main concerns, and I'm not sure I want to fill a natural talent mod into her, if it's one of those "required mods" I really hope all those procedures will give her a damage output that does not require too many power strength mods. 

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Half of these changes change nothing, it already works like that or it's redundant (why Venom a Molt when you can Venom a mob).

 

Toxin proc is very weak except on corpus, as its negated by infested and armor and the damage is derived from base damage only, not the overall.

Viral proc got nerfed to the point of no effect unless you kill the affected mobs right away - it's wasted on the secondary targets you are not focusing.

Corrosive proc would've been better for how dramatic the armor mitigation is.  Or maybe rollback the Viral proc nerf for Saryn abilities. 

 

Currently Molt fails as both defensive and offensive tool (only good for regen aug)

Molt doesn't draw aggro any reliably - fix it and have it draw fire from enemies if large range to make it work. 

Molt is made of paper and dies in 1 sec unless low levels - give it short invincibility time like 3-4 sec so it wouldn't become useless.

Molt explosion range and damage are just pathetic, but who cares - she has ult for damage, just make Molt a good defensive measure.

 

Miasma - cant say w/o the numbers, might be effectively a nerf -  if thats the case, then RIP Saryn. 

 

Melee buff doesn't make her worth using - there are several much much better frames for melee role, that can move much quicker and stay invincible/invisible while doing loads of damage, so don't try to shoehorn Saryn into melee role.

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Nice. Lots of synergy and negative duration actually being negative. LOVELY start!

 

That said though, there are still a few quirks I'd like to point out:

 

* Venom / Contagion names lack of logic (pointed out so many times already). IF this is fixed, don't forget the augments!

 

* Since Contagion is directly promoting meleeing, how about making it so Molt stealths Saryn for a brief moment (say, max 4 seconds)? This allows her to close the distance more safely, it gives some further empowerment of meleeing (stealth bonus), it lets Molt actually take the aggro from Saryn more easily and finally, it brings in a female stealth character (although not as dedicated as Loki/Ash). 4 birds in one stone!

 

* Maybe Contagion could do SOMETHING more to it. Like... I dunno, minor lifesteal? Or what if it was renamed Venom Shroud (after the nameswap, so the #1 is named Contagion), which would, on top of the proposed melee bonuses, also surround here with a shortrange gas cloud, which could deal DoT damage to nearby enemies and reduce her damage taken or whatever. Just something so she can actually STAY in melee)

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Will Saryn get an increase to base energy? Seems like her current base 100 won't be enough to keep up with all the casting. 

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Developer Workshop: Saryn Ability Rework

 

Tenno - if you're interested in a comprehensive look at the upcoming Saryn Rework, read on! To see part of the Rework in action, click here: https://youtu.be/t2EAA26nKx4?t=39m34s

 

There are a lot of modding quirks with Saryn - the quick deadliness of her 'Miasma' depends on negative duration mods, which ultimately makes it tricky to get the best use out of the rest of her Abilities.

 

Many of us here at DE felt more synergy was needed between powers, and we wanted to put a particular emphasis on spreading disease/toxicity with her kit. As always, this is subject to change, but take a look at what we have so far:

 

Venom

  • Guaranteed Viral proc on explosion of spores.
  • If current host has a toxin Proc (i.e from Contagion or any other source), it will transfer that proc too.
  • Damage ticks will be done every second, duration will affect how long the debuff is up.
  • Increase base damage of the ability.

 

Molt

  • Venom can be cast on Molt, infects units which attack Molt.
  • Miasma cast in range of Molt will feed into Molt, creating more damage on explosion.

 

Contagion

  • Guaranteed Toxin proc on melee hit.
  • Detonates a Venom spore if the target has one.
  • Damage output scales based on a percent of total damage of melee weapon with Mods, not base.

 

Miasma

  • Damage ticks will be done every second, Duration will affect how long the debuff is up.
  • 100% more damage if target is affected by a Viral proc (Venom guarantees a Viral proc when exploded).
  • 100% more damage if target is affected by a Toxin proc (Contagion guarantees a Toxin proc on impact).
  • Increase base damage overall.

 

The goal with this set of changes it to have a very active (and lethal) skill set. The combinations between Venom, Molt, Contagion, and Miasma can lead to very quick and strategic deaths. The usage of Viral procs will be key at high-level gameplay, and active usage of Venom will guarantee those procs.  

Worth noting - we are aiming to release these changes in a couple of weeks on PC. Stay tuned, Saryn lovers!

As an aside - if you're like me and you've built your Saryn for as much Negative Duration as possible, we'll put together another quick video of the changes in action on various builds to get a sense of the affect on gameplay. Will try and put something together by end-of-week or so (maybe early next week).

 

Question: Will Molt get the Snow Globe treatment where it has four seconds of invulnerability and converts damage done to it into extra health during its invulnerability?

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Contagion

  • Guaranteed Toxin proc on melee hit.
  • Detonates a Venom spore if the target has one.
  • Damage output scales based on a percent of total damage of melee weapon with Mods, not base.

 

These changes are awesome for giving it a place in the kit, but they don't address the main problem of Contagion: Contagion's effect is limited to the player's melee weapon.

 

This has become a primary concern since Melee 2.0 allowed players to equip or dequip any weapons as they please, including melee; if you don't have a weapon, the skill is entirely useless to you at all levels, and since it's being pushed as the new backbone of the kit...

While this is theoretically a shared issue with Ballistic Battery, Mesa is capable of summoning her own firearms to charge and discharge the effect. In the case of melee-enhancing abilities like Warcry and Speed, their additional effects (the slow/armor buff and movement speed, respectively) provide utility in the event that the user is not wielding a melee weapon at the moment. (Plus, Warcry and Speed are both team-wide, Speed's cheaper, and Valkyr can summon up a melee anyway - though that's beside the point.)

 

As a side note... is it really appropriate to keep calling the Viral-spreading AoE attack "Venom" and the on-hit poison effect "Contagion"?

Edited by Archwizard
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My only issue right now is the names of her 1st and 3rd skills. I believe they should be switched around. Venom should be the skill to imbue the melee weapon with poison, while Contagion should refer to the spores that pop to spread disease.
Other than that, these changes seem promising. Can't wait to get saryn out of the closet. c:

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Lots of procs and effects to play with. The only thing I can point out at this point is that a big part of Venoms and Contagion's usability is suffering from them not being able to be cast while on the move. Even without all those buffs I'd have used venom much more if it meant not having to stop every damn time for a cast. Please consider making her 1 and 3 "cast while move".

Edited by AuroraSonicBoom
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Why is Venom not called Contagion and vise versa? Seriously, Venom does viral damage and Contagion does toxic damage...

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Also if you're like me and you've built your Saryn for Negative Duration to the maximum, I'll be trying some different builds/same builds on the Test environment like I did on the Devstream. I should have them up for viewing early next week if you're eager to take a look before you get your hands on the changes! If you have build requests, quote this with a screenshot of the build. I will accommodate what I can.

just to get it right.

 

will negative duration harm the viability of my max powerstrengh/min duration build or will I do ~ the same amount of damage?

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With a melee, yeah, everything else no. This hurts endgame viability (which they are obviously trying to give her) because instead of casting, popping from range, and cutting down weakened enemies from close range, it's casting and then getting at close range.

Your forgetting DE is pushing to get melee more into endgame. This new contagion sounds like exactly like what it would take

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Interesting. 

 

On paper the concerns I have are that saryn is one of the slower frames and has lower energy reserves than many other of the more casting oriented warframes. If the idea is to utilize all or most of her abilities to set up for large pay off, it's going to hurt saryn in energy costs unless you slap on a primed flow or go very low duration. Not to mention her ground speed is slow while the range on many of her abilities is short so the new power synergies may force people to equip speed mods to actually get the most benefit from these saryn changes on the larger map tiles you can find on Europa, Ceres, Uranus, Venus, Phobos, Mars, derelicts, or void.

 

I'll be interested to see what a minimum duration build is capable of, since this looks like a very large negative for the arcane chlora helmet (+parkour speed -power duration).  

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