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[DE]Rebecca

Developer Workshop: Saryn Ability Rework

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No, thats the point of these changes.

Duration will be needed to keep going the damage or the whatever debuff thingy they speak of, without duration i guess saryn's ult will only create a small insignificant damage burst.

 

Ah. I'll try the new stuff out then. But i'm not sure if i'd be a super big fan of them from what i've read so far.

Well, we'll see when it gets here after all.

 

I'm willing to give it a shot of course. I just really hope this isn't similar to how Mesa got nerfed or something. We need to make more frames worth playing. not decrease.

Edited by Latiac

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I main Saryn and have several reservation regarding this rework. In her current state I use Molt, Miasma frequently and occasionally Venom. Regenerative Molt for the excellent removal of status and health regeneration. Miasma for stun and nuke when things get out of control and Venom when I wanna have a bit of fun and spread some mayhem in a choke point with high level enemies. Contagion I never use. Simply due to the limitation it's has to only affect melee.

 

Now she seems to be even more gimmicky to play and less more straight foreward. Yes there is more synergy but why should I cast Venom on several enemies, cast molt, cast venom on my molt, cast contagion, hit enemies with my melee to get the most out of contagion and then cast miasma to get max out of my potential?

 

When I simply can shot the enemies with my weapon and get rid of them a lot faster than exhausting all my energy and having to use all my 4 abilities to reach some sort of peak with them. This will bring her into the difficult territory of limbo and equinox where they get so "complex" that most of the tenno shun the dedication in takes to make them shine.

 

Venom change seems ok, but I would like a stun like effect like shock, freeze, shatter shield, paralysis, accelerant, silence, radial blind etc etc So the enemies are unable to shot or take actions while they are "affected" Kind of like getting the black plague that rapidly infest your entire body. If the enemy die of venom they explode in to a violent explosive puss and if it hits other enemies they get xx% of the effect on themself. At higher levels you would need to hit them with several venom pores to do more damage.

 

Contagion should be more like frost's passive (chance to freeze enemies at melee range) where Saryn herself becomes the decease carrier and any enemies that get in her close proximity get infected and all damage she does with any of her weapon to those affected has a guaranteed toxin proc and xx% chance of being overwhelmed by decease. This could also be a great defensive tool as it would work similar to Terrify if things get to hectic.

 

Molt and Miasma I feel are kind of in a good place as they are. So I still have major trepidations about this being a nerf instead of a good rework similar to Excalibur. I just hope I don't have to find a new main after this rework.

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Contagion should be changed completely, it's a boring ability that no one really ever uses. Even though it boosts your melee damage, there's no satisfying feedback from using it besides your melee damage going up, but that's hardly an incentive to use it, it has to feel fun as well. The change to make it detonate venom spores is fine and all, but that using that function would be counter intuitive due to the fact that venom is a ranged ability that locks your Warframe into casting, and the spores could be detonated with your gun. Even though it gives one new function to the skill, it's still not enough for the skill to be considered fun. But yeah, that's my two cents on it. 

 

And can we have molt automatically cast on magnetic proc? So it acts as an electromagnetic shielding and not have it drain the warframe's energy completely? It would be a nice addition to the skill. 

Edited by DesuEx
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Sounds all rather great.

 

Looking forward to testing those changes.

 

However increased synergy of the abilities also means increased energy consume. Which is less of a problem with the current negative duration builds, which are achieved via corrupted mods which increase efficency. But decreased duration harms the other abilities.

 

Also in case of Venom, the ability is a bit troublesome to use because it can only be cast if an enemy is in the crosshair. With enemies running around like headless chicken (including sometimes in circles) and team mates likely killing a few before you can press the cast button, it often results in multiple failed attempts to cast the ability.

So maybe it should have a slight homing in fuction when cast. Also maybe the spores should explode when the target dies.

 

I'm also not sure if those changes will work wonders on Contagion since it will still only work on melee.

You still have to cast it, for a cost of 75 energy, run up to enemies (which will often fire at you) and hope the enemies are still there when you try to hit them or you will have wasted 75 energy.

 

Maybe a different way for it to consume energy would help here.

 

How about the ability timer only running when you strike with your melee weapon?

Fast and slow attacking melee weapons would get the same benefit out of it and you would have plenty of time to reach enemies for full effect of it.

 

Though the melee only nature in general is also very limiting.

 

Just some thoughts.

Edited by Othergrunty
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Unless saryn's getting a lot more energy, this is a godawful rework from the looks of it. Also with this nerf change to saryn's kit how will you help veteran players that have forma'd their saryns in favor of the (apparently) now useless negative duration builds? Seems like a pretty big middle finger to them.

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Unless saryn's getting a lot more energy, this is a godawful rework from the looks of it. Also with this nerf change to saryn's kit how will you help veteran players that have forma'd their saryns in favor of the (apparently) now useless negative duration builds? Seems like a pretty big middle finger to them.

 

We seem to get this happening alot really. We have alot of Forma to spare so it isn't exactly the worst thing to happen. But a massive Inconvenience for sure.

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I'm skeptical. I don't really see improvements on her abilities tbh. I only see more damage, which is nice and all but I don't think she needs that. All her reworked abilities rely on duration and damage ticking away. Nice and all but this means at low levels she'll just get outclassed at by nuke-frames and at high level the enemies can still shoot and can easily kill her since she has little to defend herself. 

 

The best form of CC she has right now is miasma (molt dies instantly) but that ability has a short range. I fear that it's still not very worthwhile to use Contagion or Venom at all. None of them keep the enemy at bay, contagion is the worst because it promotes getting close. The molt changes are just a small buff, the synergies are nice but that's it. It's just nice. Molt just dies instantly, its just some extra ticking damage that is not needed.

 

Also, I'm disappointed. Only damage doesn't fit the poison theme either. It just feels lazy. Poison can do many other things. Like paralyzing the limbs, create illusions, or make people blind. Molt could've blinded enemies upon exploding or something. Instead, its just more damage. I find that lazy.

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Venom i think needs a faster cast time/animation speed.

 

the changes to Molt are fine in my opinion.

 

Im unhappy with contagion though. I'd like to see it produce a toxic aura that infects anything that attacks the tenno get infected with toxin. So it can be used and beneficial when a melee weapon is'nt equipped. So if a charger or prodman hits me while contagion is running they'll get a toxin proc or even a paralyse effect. (but paralyse would probably be overpowered).

 

Miasma

Really dont know about this one. The current Miasma i dont see any issues with it.

 

EDIT: Monolakes concerns are true about Molt. It defintely needs a look over on its ability to not only draw agro but the time it can actually survive.

Edited by CarrotSalad
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I can see this being a serious drain on energy if no changes are made to energy costs or Saryns base max energy. In order get the most out of Miasma, you need to cast Venom (25 energy), then you need to cast Contagion (50 energy), run up to a group of enemies, slash at them a bit with a melee weapon in order to pop spores reliably to get the Viral proc while simultaneously spreading Toxin proc from your melee slashes. Then finally casting Miasma (100 energy) in order to get the big payoff of mass damage. 

 

All of that adds up to 175 energy. Without energy efficiency mods or Flow / Primed Flow, Saryn literally doesn't have enough energy to do all of this; even at max energy at rank 30. And considering Duration is gonna matter now, FE is probably not going to be used on Saryn builds geared towards mass damage anymore. And of course, all of this has to be done without the enemies already being killed by your allies. Which seems unlikely seeing as other frames can simply press 4 and be done with it.

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I like the way Saryn's new kit will emphasize debuffing enemies with her toxic touch and virulent influence. Guaranteed procs of Viral and Toxin add utility to Saryn's otherwise pure damage abilities, and there's just one more proc I'd like to see to let her truly shine against late game enemies- Corrosive.

 

Now I wouldn't want Miasma to proc Corrosive outright, that will just lead to spamming 4 for 4~5 times to completely remove enemy armor, promoting Press-4-to-Win where it isn't needed. There is one synergy you've added though that's a perfect fit for this potent Status Effect: the relationship between Molt and Miasma.

 

Please allow Molt to guarantee proc Corrosive on explosion when it has absorbed damage from Miasma!

 

Edit: Also, I believe giving Saryn a cheap option for soft crowd control is called for, since Molt is highly fragile and Miasma costs a ton of energy to cast repeatedly.

 

I would like to see Venom spores to stagger enemies on first infection, similar to enemies being stunned by moving into Equinox's Maim aura or Banshee's Silence aura. Once they have been affected by Venom and staggered, they won't be staggered again until a new Venom instance replaces the old spores.

Edited by PsiWarp
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Also if you're like me and you've built your Saryn for Negative Duration to the maximum, I'll be trying some different builds/same builds on the Test environment like I did on the Devstream. I should have them up for viewing early next week if you're eager to take a look before you get your hands on the changes! If you have build requests, quote this with a screenshot of the build. I will accommodate what I can.

 

Press 4 to sneeze harder

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Your forgetting DE is pushing to get melee more into endgame. This new contagion sounds like exactly like what it would take

Blocking turning into damage reduction instead of actual damage blocking is the opposite of what you are saying, endgame damage is ridiculous enough where damage reduction isn't all that great.

 

Besides, Contagion either needs to have faster cast speed or no cast animation ala Chroma's Vex Armor, there really isn't much time to be casting for melee. Same could be said about Venom due to its quirky mechanic.

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i think viral need some attention as well. as we see stacking multiple viral proc wont do much bcus u can only cut off 50% of health. even multiplying the proc will only extend the proc duration. it would be good if viral can stack at X times of proc and cut off the remaining health

 

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The rework is a little disappointing DE did not use some of the fan concepts like "allure" from the rework mega thread but instead done more of a Band-Aid fix contagion really needs to go or be made way more useful  take ideas from nature like the tetrotoxin from a blue ringed octopus or better yet look at the box jelly fish it can kill you in just 2-5 minutes 

Edited by (PS4)kira4715
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While the increase in damage is quite impressive, my main gripe remains tied to the Godawful scaling system we have had to fight for years now. How are we supposed to simply survive long enough to apply so many abilities in succession (which is quite energy intensive) to once again inflict damage over time at higher levels? Just something I think you should consider dear devs : TTK (Time To Kill). It's the ONE thing that matters at "high level" with the current enemy scaling. Skill and experience? Useless. TTK rules. Nothing else matters.

 

You can buff Saryn's damage as much as want, as long as said damage not only requires several abilities to be applied first, which takes invaluable seconds and leaves us extremely vulnerable (cast times can be a bigger threat than the enemy!), but is also itself dealt over time, the key problem still exists. Damage isn't so much the issue here as the glaring lack of survivability that kills (mwahahaha puns) high level content is, at least IMHO. Enemies inflict stupidely high damage (so do some of our weapons, which I think is a direct consequence and further "intensifies" the issue), with stupidely high accuracy, and parkour 2.0, while a welcome addition, simply doesn't cut it. It's not a reliable way of avoiding the dreaded "360-noscope-insta-gib-from-halfway-accross-the-level-with-impossible-angles" plague that eats away at the game. Lucky for us this is a coop game, and CC abilities haven't been rendered completely useless by cheap "nullifying" mechanics. Yet. We're slowly getting there.

 

In short, we need more survivability and versatility, since enemy scaling ends up negating ridiculous amounts of damage of all types, and insta-gibbing most frames if not under Hard CC the nano-second an enemy has us in their field of vision. And obviously said enemy scaling could use a big ol' Nerfhammer blow right in the jewels, which would then allow our weapons to see their damage values adjusted to be less... overboard, and damage based abilities (and more generally the frames themselves) could be put back in the spotlight, where they should always have been. This is WarFRAME for Lotus' sake, not WarGUNS or WarSCALING...

 

But of course this is just my personal take on what I think needs to be addressed if any change revolving around the game's core can be deemed viable in the long run. If you have a "masterplan", please share dear devs. Don't leave the players in the dark. We're not asking for unreasonable promises, just an aknowledgement that the global issue that causes so many smaller ones will be "taken care of".^^

Edited by Marthrym
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Every 'second' is way too slow for any DoT type in this game. The overall nerf to beam weapons made that painfully clear. 

 

That is, unless the new Miasma is going to do as much damage in the initial tick to outperform the original Miasma.

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This rework would be okay if:

1. Contagion worked on ranged weapons

and

2. Power costs are rebalanced OR Saryn gets a larger energy pool

 

As it stands right now, there are quite a few issues with this.

1. Saryn simply can't make the approach to a high level enemy with a gun on her own. Molt doesn't remove aggro from her completely, and she has no skills like Slash Dash or Landslide to close the distance. Miasma has a stun, but opening up with the ult just to hit with her 1 and 3 and then ult again just sounds bad.

2. The interaction between Venom/Contagion and Miasma is awkward and takes too long. In order to max the damage output, Saryn has to hit every Venom'd enemy with Contagion'd melee and then cast her ranged nuke while still in close quarters. Of course, she can skip Contagion altogether and shoot the spores herself, but she will miss out on a significant chunk of damage by doing so.

3. The power cost of chaining these abilities is going to be absurd. Miasma already doesn't sound like a 100-energy skill, it needs a lot of setup to even work properly.

4. Modding is going to be a nightmare. Ember all over again.

 

The idea of having all these debuffs work together to strengthen her brainless ult sounds great, but the implementation falls apart. Contagion was by far her worst skill before, now making Miasma rely on it (since min duration will no longer boost damage) won't work.

Edited by ChimiCherryChangaTirade
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Synergy that only applies to the game after 40 minutes or 40 waves, everything before that is instantly killed in one hit by any end game group.  But damage buffs from synergy are nowhere near enough to deal with enemies having 30,000-100,000+ HP pools after those minutes/waves. 

 

Current max damage miasma does about 1/20th of a level 60 heavy gunners HP.

 

Dance dance revolution rework miasma will do about 4/20ths of that gunner's HP, but take 8 times as long to perform. And includes variables like your teammates clearing the room in less than 4 seconds with untouchable ranged weapon damage output, nullifying any procs you're attempting to set up.

 

Needs less concentration on making damage, more effort on making these things auto-spread, proc, and stay up across a wide swath of the room very quickly.

 

----------

Just gonna keep posting my same ideas, hoping something'll stick:

 

 

Venom automated spread on infected enemy deaths, damage ticks not removed at all when popping/spreading.

 

Molt gets the Frost snowglobe treatment so it stays alive for at least 5-10 seconds. Would help with the weird venom synergy in this current rework.

 

Contagion applies half its melee damage/proc effect to ranged weapons as well and becomes a team buff.  Again, taking the current rework's effects and making them far more executable in practice.  (We need to make sure contagion's toxic proc is totally seperate from any weapon's elements if that's not already the case with this rework.)

 

Miasma changed from being a nuke, to being a toggle like Equinox's that procs a stun on first hit and then corrosive proc chance every second in addition to moderate damage ticks.  Maybe have it do a similar Equinox burst on deactivation based on how many viral/toxin status'd enemies are in range rather than Equinox's collected damage method.

 

An elusive tank that spreads crippling debuffs please.

 

-Oh, and can we please finally get Contagion and Venom name swapped? Seriously, come on, you know you want to.

Edited by SanguineXIII
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Do we have enough power to keep using powers in conjunction like that?

 

Any changes to costs? Combo reductions?

 

I feel like people are going to turn to toxic and gas proc guns where we expect them to use Contagion. Maybe Contagion should be a toggle to make it more attractive... ?

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Contagion is still out of place because Saryn is not geared for melee. She has no innate bonus for knockback protection or knockback recovery.

 

Contagion needs to be a complete melee buff by means of Saryn adjusting her body chemistry/toxicity, specifically:

1) Increase damage with additive Toxic element

2) Increase attack speed

3) Increase knockdown recovery speed

4) Increase run speed.

 

As a payoff, she should ONLY be allowed to use melee while the power is active, no firearms.

 

 

 

Can you please swap Venom and Contagion's names? I mean does the name Venom for her power one, an ability which does viral damage and SPREADS BY PUSS FILLED SPORES EXPLODING, Sound like venom? That sounds like a contagious disease. It's a simple change that makes the powers sound better when their name matches what they do.

 

But on a side note, will Saryn be getting any stat tweaks with this rework? More armor, hp, shields? Anything of the sort? When excal got his rework he got some stat tweaks along with it.

Also +1

Edited by DaftMeat
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So Contagion is still gonna be melee-only? So much for it becoming useful.....

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Reading over a bunch of things and remembering what DE said about not wanting 'mandatory mods' Saryn better be getting some stat changes or else she will NEED flow/streamline in order to actually use these new combo powers of hers. She is also going to need a buff in armor to make contagion actually worth using without risking sudden death(Which is the case for many frames these days.)

 

If you're going to give a warframe a power that is only effective at close range, that warframe better be able to survive close range encounters and sadly...saryn does not. Combine that with these new buffs to her powers, she doesn't even have enough power to pull off her trio power(Venom, Contagion, Miasma) without some kind of mod to help(Which DE stated in their latest devstream they want to avoid 'mandatory mods').

 

Simply put, these changes are nice but she needs stat changes as well in order for these changes to be truly worthwhile and effective. But if you refuse to buff her to have some more armor(please, leave her HP and Shields as they are, just buff her armor to like...300), then give her contagion(I hate calling this power contagion, it really should be called venom) the trait of working not just on melee but guns as well, please.

 

I honestly would prefer if contagion just applied to what ever weapon you have equipped, rather than just melee weapons. Plus, who is really going to want to jump into a group of enemies to pop their venom sacs when you can just shoot em at a distance? This would make contagion over all more useful(Honestly it should be a team buff, when ever someone shoots at or melee's an enemy with Venom applied to it the sacs burst and spread, making Saryn have some syngery with other frames.)

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