Developer Workshop: Saryn Ability Rework

[Tain_OSkoom]

Also if you're like me and you've built your Saryn for Negative Duration to the maximum, I'll be trying some different builds/same builds on the Test environment like I did on the Devstream. I should have them up for viewing early next week if you're eager to take a look before you get your hands on the changes! If you have build requests, quote this with a screenshot of the build. I will accommodate what I can.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing the Lotus Notes on the following:

[CelticMoss]

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Saryn/t_30_0300040040_2-5-10-6-6-5-7-3-5-19-4-10-34-8-5-55-1-4-59-0-3-411-7-10-471-2-3_59-9-55-5-471-9-7-9-19-14-2-6-6-11-411-16-34-5-f-f_48/en/1-0-17/

 

Just want to see you use it

 

But over all the rework looks pretty poor.

 

Also change my name if you see this i keep telling myself to ask but i never do 

 

Change it to like EatenGod or something.

Edited October 21, 2015 by SarahApple

[LisRestall]

Upon reading the complete changelog, at first it would look nice but once you think about applying it into actual fights, this is where it gets complicated. Although, that additional DoT on Contagion based on melee damage (mods considered) seems like the idea that I gave on my thread, although w/o any noted limitations on stacking, I hope it does not have stacking limitation like the old Acrid.

 

Anyways, about the "complication" I mentioned. I'll just list down the problem per ability.

 

Venom

The main problem of this skill is it's just too hassle to use. It has rather small infection range which means you need to re-cast it and re-do the mechanics per enemy wave. I have two suggestions for this skill.

Suggestion 1: Make the range affected by range mods and let the remaining spores pop by itself upon the affected target's death. Since the infection will be more reliable, this would lessen the frequency of recasts.

Suggestion 2: Making it a radial skill that requires no targetting and will infect 3 nearest targets and will pop the remaining spores upon the affected target's death. Reduce the cast time by 50% and keep it's fixed range. This would make casting the skill ALOT less hassle.

 

Molt

This skill is barely reliable. You don't need to use it on low levels since low levels would barely scratch Saryn. While on high levels, it dies rather quick. The explosion has very small damage and very small range. This skill is pure terrible, it does have it's use on some scenarios but it's useless in most cases.

Suggestion 1: Make it a real defensive ability. I don't like adding a Snow Globe mechanic to it because that thing is getting repetetive and it's boring but it makes more sense than the current changes.

Suggestion 2: Make it heal Saryn upon use and apply a 100% damage reduction buff that decreases overtime.

 

Contagion

I am happy with the changes. Although I hope that the toxin procs can be stacked infinitely. I see some people are unhappy with it being exclusive to melee but as a melee user myself, I don't see any problem making Saryn melee focused especially since you can also use Constitution now with positive effects on Saryn's other skills. It might need to buff Saryn's survivability though, maybe something like +50% armor per enemy kill and stacks up to 4 times.

 

Miasma

This needs to be a much more reliable CC. Cast time is crying to be reduced. To be honest, I'm fine if the damage on this skill is completely removed but make it a very strong CC like Radial Disarm. It doesn't need to replicate what Radial Disarm does but make it a very good CC on par with it. Might as well rename it too.

 

Also DE, you guys need to take note how effective/useless DoT is in this game. In low levels areas, DoT doesn't matter because the enemy just dies from about anything anyways. On higher levels, enemy does lethal damage where you want to obliterate them way faster than DoT or just use a CC skill before killing them with your guns/melee. The game is ridiculously fast paced, DoT has barely any use.

[(PSN)PluggedInBabies]

Right now it looks like you guys are aiming to encourage to use all her powers together. The problem is, it costs 225 Energy to use Venom, Molt, Contagion, and Miasma, but Saryn has 150 Power at Level 30. I dig the ideas, but you definitely need to increase her Base Power if you go with this.

 

As an additional note, I think you should let Contagion affect teammates. It would give her bonus team support and it could be fun to let teammates interact with Saryn's mechanics as well.

Edited October 21, 2015 by (PS4)PluggedInBabies

[CY13ERPUNK]

sounds sick

 

the queen of poisonous flowers is back in bloom it seems =]

 

luvn the synergy with her kit 

 

[although this really shows how awful Limbo's current kit is and how the forced 'synergy' between his powers is NOT 'synergy' at all and is awful, plz rework the rift plane effects of his #3 into an innate effect and give him a short ranged 'blink' with some radial cc/KD/KB for a new #3, not to mention plz stop making him drop things while in the rift and unable to pickup, he doesnt drop his weapons so why drop the datamass? and items on the ground within the cataclysm should be obtainable] /end rant

 

keep up the good work DE

[Xennocide420]

I don't understand any of this stuff because I've been refusing to build or try to understand Saryn, because what I see from the outside it that its THE press-4 to win Frame, know what I mean ? Mindless and shallow frame completely empty of any strategic complexity. Its the LEAST ninja thing in this game. Difficult to understand how its been allowed to go on this long. If Saryn could NOT instakill everything, everywhere, every second, yeh, that would be good... I've quit many games because with Saryn on the team, im not going to have any fun, nobody will be able to shoot a single bullet, this is normal ?? Don't matter what guns Saryn carry, can go with none.. just run around and press 4... Everything everywhere just dead for no reason. People can enjoy this kind of gameplay if they want, but I never have and never will allow Saryn on my teams, I like to actually see what im killing, and actually kill it, for real with a gun, not for fake, Saryn's 4 is fake killing. Loki Prime Master Race because NONE ITS ABILITIES DEAL DAMAGE !

 

 

I hope for more team based Synergy instead to make this Frame more OP just in different ways.

[CelticMoss]

Maybe you should do T4 survival with one if they run with a spam build they won't last long.

[taiiat]

With a melee, yeah, everything else no. This hurts endgame viability because instead of casting, popping from range, and cutting down weakened enemies from close range, it's casting and then getting at close range.

i fail to see where you got the impression that you can't shoot them as you do now.

 

Toxin proc is very weak except on corpus, as its negated by infested and armor

Viral proc got nerfed to the point of no effect unless you kill the affected mobs right away - it's wasted on the secondary targets you are not focusing.

Corrosive proc would've been better for how dramatic the armor mitigation is.

 

Molt doesn't draw aggro any reliably

Molt is made of paper and dies in 1 sec unless low levels

 

don't try to shoehorn Saryn into melee role.

Toxin Damage is the best single Elemental in the game. it has a bonus to more Enemies than any of the other Elemental Types.

infact, as you seem to have forgotten, it has a bonus to Ferrite Armor. so it fares a lot better than many other Damage Types do.

yes, Infested resist it. that's fine. nothing else does.

 

Viral Status was Overpowered as f... for long enough, thanks. having it reapply permanently like it was for quite some time was the opposite of balance. why bother bringing any Damage? you don't need it, just load up on Status and Viral Damage.

Viral Status works correctly now, and is balanced. halving the Health for 8 seconds is very considerable. 8 seconds is also not 'Kill them right away or nothing happens'.

if you need longer than 8 Seconds to Kill an Enemy, you should be leaving your Mission.

 

having Corrosive Status be folded in somewhere is certainly appropriate.

 

 

both Decoy and Molt attract attention very reliably. very few Players use any strategy when placing them however, nor do they understand how to make Enemies pay attention to what they want them to pay attention to.

if you place your Decoy Abilities in locations which will force Enemies to pay attention to areas away from the Players and move from their positions to more favorable ones for Players, your Decoy Abilities are very effective.

if a Decoy Ability is being destroyed after just a couple seconds, place them better. there's little to no reason why a Decoy Ability shouldn't almost always last it's full Duration.

 

having other features that would be useful? perhaps. but the Decoys themselves work quite well provided some strategy is used. which is more than can be said for a lot of Abilities, where strategy and knowledge is irrelevant, just cast it more.

a fading Damage Reduction after being cast with a 'cooldown' for the effect of N seconds? sure, would be useful.

turning invisible for N seconds after being case with a 'cooldown' for the effect of N seconds? sure, would be useful.

having Threat Level 5 for N seconds after being cast with a 'cooldown' for the Effect of N seconds? sure, would be useful.

 

 

Saryn has been a relatively close Range & Melee Warframe for longer than any of the Warframes you're thinking of have been(save for Excalibur and Loki/Ash because they're older), since Saryn has existed far longer than any of those Warframes.

Saryn has had a Melee aspect since Mar.18.2013. which precedes almost all of the Melee work that Warframe has had over the years, of Abilities doing more with Melee and Et Cetera.

[MotherofHermes]

this sounds great. but at high level enemies (such as raids or T4) how will saryn (a melee-centric frame) not explode?

[JackBeloved]

And could we please switch the names of Venom and Contagion? Since ' Venom ' actually spreads a contagion, and ' Contagion ' actually laces your melee with venom?

Please, DE? Please?

[Leriel]

Some minor improvement/quality of life changes on these abilities please.

 

Venom - Spores spread upon enemy death. Allow damage/duration to stack from new spores with cap limit. Subsequent casts with reduced energy cost. Allow spread radius to be affected by power range. One hand casting animation.

Enemies die too fast before you can spread the spores. Excluding infested, most enemies do not group up close enough for efficient spore spreading. Usually, 4 or 5 enemies will get the spores. Casting animation of Venom is slow, halts movement and leaves you vulnerable to fire. Being able to cast venom on the move reduces the time spent on setting up for Miasma combo.  

 

Molt - Upon cast, Saryn will be invisible for 2 seconds (unaffected by duration mods) or give molt the same SnowGlobe treatment.  

Additionally, give molt a forced threat priority within a 10m radius.

Currently, molt doesn't last long against level 30+ enemies without maxed power strength and with the upcoming changes to molt being a damage buffer for Miasma, molt needs to last long enough to be beneficial in terms of survival for Saryn.   

 

(Rant) Miasma - Allow damage to stack from subsequent casts with a cap limit.

Current Miasma is capable of dealing high burst damage in a short period which means there will be lesser enemies attacking you. With the upcoming change, Miasma will be turned into a high DoT ability which still leaves you open to the enemy's attack.

 

Hypothetically speaking, a Miasma build that deals 1000 damage per second and last 30 seconds (30000 total damage) might be awesome, but it isn't feasible in a 4 person team against 80-100 level enemies due to the fact that the affected enemies would die within a short period of time. At most, Miasma might be able to deal 10000 DoT to high level enemies before they are killed. Miasma's true potential can only be seen in a 1hr+ endurance runs but most players tend to extract after 45-60 minutes.

 

This is just speculation about the damage potential and practicality of Miasma, please don't bash me for ranting about Miasma. Maybe if DE allows Molt to have the same mechanic as SnowGlobe, the Miasma + Molt combo will be ridiculously good.    

[Pridesfury]

Some minor improvement/quality of life changes on these abilities please.

 

Venom - Spores spread upon enemy death. Allow damage/duration to stack from new spores with cap limit. Subsequent casts with reduced energy cost. Allow spread radius to be affected by power range. One hand casting animation.

Enemies die too fast before you can spread the spores. Excluding infested, most enemies do not group up close enough for efficient spore spreading. Usually, 4 or 5 enemies will get the spores. Casting animation of Venom is slow, halts movement and leaves you vulnerable to fire. Being able to cast venom on the move reduces the time spent on setting up for Miasma combo.  

 

Molt - Upon cast, Saryn will be invisible for 2 seconds (unaffected by duration mods) or give molt the same SnowGlobe treatment.  

Additionally, give molt a forced threat priority within a 10m radius.

Currently, molt doesn't last long against level 30+ enemies without maxed power strength and with the upcoming changes to molt being a damage buffer for Miasma, molt needs to last long enough to be beneficial in terms of survival for Saryn.   

 

(Rant) Miasma - Allow damage to stack from subsequent casts with a cap limit.

Current Miasma is capable of dealing high burst damage in a short period which means there will be lesser enemies attacking you. With the upcoming change, Miasma will be turned into a high DoT ability which still leaves you open to the enemy's attack.

 

Hypothetically speaking, a Miasma build that deals 1000 damage per second and last 30 seconds (30000 total damage) might be awesome, but it isn't feasible in a 4 person team against 80-100 level enemies due to the fact that the affected enemies would die within a short period of time. At most, Miasma might be able to deal 10000 DoT to high level enemies before they are killed. Miasma's true potential can only be seen in a 1hr+ endurance runs but most players tend to extract after 45-60 minutes.

 

This is just speculation about the damage potential and practicality of Miasma, please don't bash me for ranting about Miasma. Maybe if DE allows Molt to have the same mechanic as SnowGlobe, the Miasma + Molt combo will be ridiculously good.    

Molt and decoy bith deserve that treatment

[Rankii]

The only video we've seen of postnerf saryn is in a controlled enviroment. It's easy to say "hey look! the skills work as planned" when you can just spawn a small amount of enemies at will, or enter a dev room where the human element of other players isn't present. I say, before making this an actual thing, run the new saryn through some missions. I mean real ones, not the show-off ones you use for promo vids and real missions like the "endgame" stuff.

[(PSN)Crackle2012]

 

As an aside - if you're like me and you've built your Saryn for as much Negative Duration as possible, we'll put together another quick video of the changes in action on various builds to get a sense of the affect on gameplay. Will try and put something together by end-of-week or so (maybe early next week).

 

So, from what I've read -- Duration will now determine the length of the debuff and the ticks will be 1 per second.  

 

Also, as it is now, when you re-cast Molt, the old Molt explodes but at the same time, creates a new molt (very handy and one of my favorite things to do!  However, I see a potential issue/oversight that could come with the re-work) -- see below!

 

With the above said, I have 2 questions:

 

1.  Will duration still affect the speed of the ticks of Miasma?  or is it a base of 1 second now, and duration only affects how long the DoT lasts?

 

&

 

2.  I see potential for... a possible weird synergy /  oversight or issue that could arise from the Molt / Miasma Synergy.

 

The OP states that when a Molt is active -- Miasma cast within range of Molt will feed into Molt, and cause the explosion to do more damage.

 

So, what if I cast Molt, then all of a sudden I need to cast Miasma because I ran into an onslaught of enemies. So I cast Miasma at location X, then nothing happens because Molt absorbs it and explodes at Location Y across the map?   (As we all know, Miasma has pretty ridiculous range with +Range mods which would make it very easy for Molt to be in range of Miasma at almost all times)

 

If the above = true, This would mean I'd need to wait for Molt to burst on it's own before I cast Miasma within range of it to get the normal affect out of Miasma, because currently, if you recast Molt-- the old one explodes and a new one forms immediately. 

 

I guess the actual question I am asking is...

 

Will casting Miasma automatically just feed into Molt and then explode it at the same time (concentrating the dmg of molt + Miasma around the Molt?)  or will Molt Absorb the damage from Miasma as well as allow Miasma to hurt other things? 

 

I hope that question #2 was not too hard to understand, but I just sat here and re-wrote it about 5 times to make it as clear as possible, and i'm still questioning the clarity of it, lol... geeze...  

 

Also, I know that this is still WIP!  I just thought I would point this out to either get some clarity, or shed some light on something that may or may not be an issue ahead of time! :-)

Edited October 21, 2015 by (PS4)Crackle2012
Edited Typo's

[motorfirebox]

The most important Saryn rework is switching the names of Venom and Contagion. This is vital.

[Rowbut]

But what about a stat buff?

 

She used to be considered tanky but now with the new norm in armor values shes kinda S#&$ty Y_Y

[JustOR1G1N]

OMG! DE, you finally heard our prayer! Saryn's abilities are horrible now. Those lazy tenno skooms in 90% cases using only miasma (and it's justified because other abilities becoming useless when we're trying to max miasma). But this changes will save Saryn and will make her more fun to play. Can't wait to see and try how it will work when it comes out!

[Messor36]

THX DE! Love the rework so far. You are AWESOME! =)

[Easymac]

While I like the synergy, I'm confused as for the duration.

Currently, the duration build works Damage/Duration = tick damage

If your damage is 5000, and your duration is 2 seconds
you do 2,500 damage per second, but if your duration is 5 seconds, you do 1,000 per second.

With the update, is it going to be the same? or is it going to be Damage*Duration=Tick
so after 1 second you only do 5,000 damage? and after 5 seconds you do 25,000 damage,

I see potential problems in the future. I already sacrifice damage to have some sustainability, as well as range.

Transient fortitude and blinding rage are going to be worthless on her, haevily reducing her damage.

you now Sacrifice two parts of your range, duration, efficency, or strength.
rather than just one. Currently you reduce duration, but that's helpful. Now, everything will be "okay" at best

either nuke in a 5M and venom spreads 1M area, with molt hurting a 2M area,
or carpet the entire map with venom and miasma, but only do ticks of 10 damage each.
or beable to hit the whole map, and hit it hard, but having no effeciency to beable to do it agian.
 

[Snowmotion]

While I don't really have much to add that has not already been stated with the misgivings of others - mainly over contagion's nature remaining underwhelming and how we could benefit from a crowd control or mitigation ability in its place - I do have concerns about Molt remaining... Lackluster.

 

Would it be possible for Molt to have its hitpoints removed and become purely duration based with a twist - said twist being that it initially draws the attention of the enemy, only as they deal damage to it, its priority as a target plummets as they realise it's a ruse to distract them, prompting them to turn their attention towards the caster instead?

 

That way it becomes a brief target, gets no silly grace period like snowglobe that only serves to make it unreliably gain bonus hitpoints yet still remains a viable placement point and amplification point for Saryn's other abilities.

[MantisCore]

Can you please swap Venom and Contagion's names? I mean does the name Venom for her power one, an ability which does viral damage and SPREADS BY PUSS FILLED SPORES EXPLODING, Sound like venom? That sounds like a contagious disease. It's a simple change that makes the powers sound better when their name matches what they do.

 

I was just going to post the same thing. It irks me that the ability with a viral proc that spreads like a disease is called Venom while the ablility with a Toxin proc that poisons your blade is called Contagion. I'm afraid the names might be too cemented at this point, though.

 

In any case, the rework seems really good so far, at least on paper. More interaction and synergies between abilities is great. And glad that counterintuitive negative-duration-is-actually-a-buff silliness is gone.

[Senoinya]

Hopefully Ember is next for a proper rework after Mag.

 

I love Ember, Ember's amazing. I personally feel Ember is superior to the current Saryn, but she needs buffs, and adjustments to make her more viable.

[Weltraumfred]

Saryn is one of my mains and I am ... not that convinved about the now build. You need lots of energy to keep those combos rolling. And if you want to use Molt, Contagion and Miasma you need to engage at short ranges, so you need durability, double so when you're still in the line of fire while your DoT kills the enemies and your Miasma just ate your Molt.

 

And I am not sure if DE wants to give Saryn both an armor and an energy buffs. I am not sure if there will be stat boosts at all.

[(XBOX)Skode]

The year of quality is finally kicking in with these reworks - Saryn, Frost and Excalibur are FAR better now.

 

Nekros, Valkyr and Ember are better too to a lower degree but all buffs welcomed.

 

Hydroid, Oberon, Mag and Rhino need looked at (Rhino being looked at next).

 

Would also like Vauban bounce and Zephyr tail wind boosts to compensate Parkour 2.0. Either way these changes will really make Saryn prime a must have.

[JackBeloved]

Since I see many people who are 1)displeased with molt, and 2) worried about survivability with the new kit, why not turn molt into something skin to iron skin? Cast molt, but instead of leaving it behind, you wear it and take it with you. Enemies have to get through the molt to get to your health. Maybe it specifically has melee damage resistance?