Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Developer Workshop: Saryn Ability Rework


[DE]Rebecca
 Share

Recommended Posts

While you're looking at her abilities is there any chance to do some editing on her design flaws that might benefit the whole community in regards to her common clipping issue?  (This applies to Trinity as well).  I've posted on this here hoping Minki would get a chance to review it, it would go a long way into helping streamline her Rebecca.
 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/544841-upcoming-changes-to-sarynsaryn-prime/#entry6117725

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice way of dealing with the whole 'Nukeframe' issue; I like the idea of making Warframes have to combine their powersets if they want to be a walking nuke. That really fixes a lot of the casual play 'problems' of joining a mission, and having it turn into a boring snorefest of 'Follow The One Player Clearing The Entire Room Every Two Seconds'.

 

Even if it only ultimately increases the time/power combining effort required to do that, that'd at least allow for a few SECONDS of actual gameplay for other players to get in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Weee..  

2 things

Firstly, its not entirely clear in the devstream demo but will anything happen with the Contagion time? Will it still be cast for x-duration and recast when it runs out or, is there any chance for a change to a toggle (similar to Ember's "World on Fire") with a smaller initial casting cost followed by an appropriate energy drain that takes efficiency and duration into account (efficiency = how much energy gets drained, duration = how often the energy drain will tick) and ends when toggled off or you run out of energy?

Secondly, general "removing the clunkiness" stuff, so she feels more fluid. Maybe a minor sprint speed buff up to around 1.05  just so when you press the sprint button you actually feel that she's bothering to sprint. It was also mentioned above about maybe allowing movement while casting Venom and Contagion again just to remove the clunk.

Otherwise, so far the new Saryn stuff looks like it will be fun to play around with both on the Duration build and Negative Duration/High Strength sides. 

Edited by -Trixxy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still worry about the usefulness of her 3. I dont know about others, but I don't plan on casting venom from across the map, casting contagion then sprinting to smack some baddy. In close range my immediate thought is to molt + venom / miasma, again using some other, more effective, weapon to spread venom. 

 

1. For the love of all things holy please, please, please name venom, contagion. 

2. Make 'contagion' (currently venom) her 3, energy range and such changed to accommodate.

3. Make 'venom' (currently contagion) something like:

3a) Spits venom in the eyes of target, damaging & reducing accuracy. *(Probably the better of the two)

3b) Engulfs a target area in toxins (much like Torrid in functionality)

 

Thus, Molt + new Venom = Blind City

or Molt + new Venom + new Contagion = Raccoon City

 

Regardless, great work as always and much love <3.

personally ive always loved contagion and its concept but it just wasnt worth using and the changes de is making are making me moist, only thing i would like to see is miasma causing corrosive procs so i can be a full fledged poison proc queen

Edited by Ryuukiko
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Saryn is suffering from a bit of an identity crisis. She's not sure if she's supposed to be a DoT frame or a melee frame, but this rework seems to be trying to make her into both at once, which as a lot of people are pointing out, is just not likely to be viable in a game as fast paced and deadly as Warframe.

 

If she wants to be a DoT frame (which I would prefer), contagion (should be venom!) should be replaced or heavily reworked so it doesn't force her into melee.

 

If she wants to be a melee frame, venom (should be contagion!) needs a look to give it more short term usefulness, and she needs some cc or damage mitigation, or at least a buff to her defensive stats.

 

 


both Decoy and Molt attract attention very reliably. very few Players use any strategy when placing them however, nor do they understand how to make Enemies pay attention to what they want them to pay attention to.

if you place your Decoy Abilities in locations which will force Enemies to pay attention to areas away from the Players and move from their positions to more favorable ones for Players, your Decoy Abilities are very effective.

if a Decoy Ability is being destroyed after just a couple seconds, place them better. there's little to no reason why a Decoy Ability shouldn't almost always last it's full Duration.

 

Molt is not decoy, saryn is not loki. Loki's kit doesn't encourage him to charge into groups of armed enemies while visible, getting shot with bombard rockets where his face would be if tenno had faces, saryn's does. Molt needs to be viable to cast as a panic button, which currently it is not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For all who have raised the topic (through PMs, all-caps manifestos, or otherwise) of the names of Saryn's abilities and how their application defies definition, we're seeing what we can do about swapping or renaming. No promises yet, discussions are happening real-time.

If you are unable to decide upon switching Venom/Contagion then please elaborate with us as to why these powers are named as they are named, currently their names do no match what the powers do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off, Venom and Contagion need name swaps.

Secondly, Contagion is still too underwhelming. It needs to be more than a just Toxin buff on your melee weapon that works well with your other abilities because people just aren't going to use it much. It could buff all your weapons (or just whatever you're using at the time). Or it could work similarly to a shorter range Exalted Blade. IE it fires off Toxin waves when you swing your melee weapon.

Third, Miasma should do a mix (not more, but a mix) of Corrosive and Gas damage per tic. Each of which has a moderate chance to Proc.

Saryn The Toxinframe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The name swap for contagion and venom is not the issue with the rework it's the fact contagion is useless at worst at best hardly worth the energy cost for a small toxic buff it needs drastic change also pick a theme is saryn a caster dot like warlock or a toxic tank because right now trying to have both will backfire

Edited by (PS4)kira4715
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Miasma

  • Damage ticks will be done every second, Duration will affect how long the debuff is up.
  • 100% more damage if target is affected by a Viral proc (Venom guarantees a Viral proc when exploded).
  • 100% more damage if target is affected by a Toxin proc (Contagion guarantees a Toxin proc on impact).
  • Increase base damage overall.

 

Are the 100% more damages additive or multiplicative?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Molt doesn't draw aggro like Decoy, unless the mobs are really close to it, they will often proceed to shoot you instead of Molt. bug or not, this needs a change.  You can place Decoy into cover and it will work, Molt pops at your place.

 

Her "melee aspect" was always trash no one used, Contagion is a terrible skill that doesn't fit Saryn

Molt does draw aggro, actually.

it's Threat Level isn't as high as it doesn't have a gun, but it's still plenty high enough. Molt being placed at your current location doesn't change it's functionality, and the strategy you're supposed to use to make them effective.

 

by "underwhelming" i presume you mean "doesn't make Mission Complete appear on the screen when used".

 

 

and now i use the same exact words - you talk as if you've never played the game, blah blah random insults.

back in those days, Contagion was a great Ability for the game we had then, as it added Armor Ignoring Damage to your Melee. get close, and deal a LOT more Damage.

 

the game has obviously evolved since then. doesn't change that Saryn was designed with a Melee aspect in mind. whether it fits the theme of a Warframe isn't really for you to decide.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will we be allowed to cast while running all the abilities? Cause God knows it's gonna be a huge pain in the behind to cast a few consecutive powers that keep you locked in place, especially at higher level. Something as little as this can pretty much kill her usefulness against tougher enemies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For all who have raised the topic (through PMs, all-caps manifestos, or otherwise) of the names of Saryn's abilities and how their application defies definition, we're seeing what we can do about swapping or renaming. No promises yet, discussions are happening real-time.

Woo!

 

 

Will we be allowed to cast while running all the abilities? Cause God knows it's gonna be a huge pain in the behind to cast a few consecutive powers that keep you locked in place, especially at higher level. Something as little as this can pretty much kill her usefulness against tougher enemies.

 

From the devstream preview, it looked like Rebecca was able cast most of her stuff on the move. I don't remember her having to stop and recast very much.

Edited by motorfirebox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Synergy just feels forced, apart from the Venom + Molt combo. I don't like her as a "press 4 to win", but this just makes us have to mash a few buttons, then press 4 to win. Not a fan of the rework, but I'm hoping the gameplay feels more fluid than it reads.

They aren't nerfing miasma's damage (hopefully) so the saryn should end up as a "Press 4 to win" "Press 1, 2, 3, 4 to win harder". However I don't mind that as long as the other abilities end up useful compared to before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with those that say that Contagion should just be ditched entirely. It's so random and out of place compared to her other abilities, it's like Psychic Bolts on Nyx - doesn't fit her kit, and beyond even that, it's a bad ability even if it did. This rework will not solve the issue with Contagion, it will still be an underperforming and unused ability.

 

Saryn is all about affecting crowds, her first, second, and fourth all support this style. Her third for some reason is just a random toxin mod for melee. It honestly feels less like an ability and more like the devs sat there and one of them asked "So we have poison spores, shedding, and toxic gasses, what else fits a toxin theme?", this question being met with a variety of "Um"s, "Er"s, and "Hm"s, until finally some genius raised their hand and promptly said "let's make her fill her melee weapon with toxin damage!" as a last resort solution that for some reason everyone went along with rather than realizing that was a terrible suggestion.

 

There are many, many more potential toxin-themed abilities that would not only suit Saryn's kit, but also work well as a third ability, which in most cases tends to be the semi-utility ability that is slightly less powerful than the 4th, but offers a uniquely helpful role that makes it sometimes be a better idea than just using your 4th depending on the situation.

 

Suggestions:

 

Plague

 

Saryn casts multiple streams of gas into the lungs of nearby enemies, those enemies will enter a "stunned" state in which they stumble about, coughing violently. Any enemies that come within range of those enemies will become affected by the plague and also enter this stunned state. Enemies affected by plague will also be damaged. To make this a good scaling ability, the plague grows more damaging to currently affected enemies based on the number of enemies it has branched out to.

 

 

Infest

 

Saryn releases venomous eggs throughout the air, which are injested by enemies. If the enemy is killed after being affected by Infest, the eggs will hatch from the enemy's corpse into mini-infested that serve Saryn, attacking nearby enemies. To make this a scaling ability, the level of the infested that come from the corpse is dependant on the level of the enemy that Saryn inflicted Infest on.

 

 

Acidic Stream

 

Saryn spews a toxic liquid from her body, leaving pools of acid across the ground wherever she walks. Any enemies who enter this acid will take heavy damage, giving Saryn a highly controllable area-denial ability that could prove useful in a variety of modes. To make this a scaling ability, don't make it just pure damage - enemies will find their movement speed slowed down upon stepping into the acid, and they'll continue to slow down more depending on the time they remain in it.

 

 

Any of these would be superior to Contagion.

Edited by Valsako
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They aren't nerfing miasma's damage (hopefully) so the saryn should end up as a "Press 4 to win" "Press 1, 2, 3, 4 to win harder". However I don't mind that as long as the other abilities end up useful compared to before.

 

They were useful before. If halving everything's health and getting away from certain death and, depending on mods, healing up to full weren't useful... I don't know what is. Contagion was weak, yes that needed some love. Remember that transient fortitude can't really be equipped now, so the damage buff to Miasma will likely just be to try and make that hurt a little less. Yes, we'll get some extra damage from other abilities combo'd, but having to use them in that fashion just feels forced.

 

Just because most people ignored two of the best abilities in the game, it doesn't mean that we need to tack synergy onto a frame.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Contagion is still as much a pain in the a** as before. I was really hoping to get rid of this skill Excalibur style.

 

I really don't understand this concept of power forcing the player to use one particular kind of weapon (here close quarter, but there surely has other examples). It's forcing players to use a fighting style he may not like.

 

In my particular case, I absolutely hate close combat and never use my melee weapon.... So one skill become useless and will never be used.

 

The rest of the modifications seems to introduce a LOT of headach and work. Who will try to cast 3-4 difference spell to kill enemies which have an life expectancy of 3 seconds max?

Enemy will die before you had the time to cast the second power. This problem is especially true with the (awsome) parkour 2.0 which speeded up the game even more.

Edited by Marnus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This sort of synergy reminds me of Limbo. If you don't use this power then another power becomes ineffective. In Saryn's case if we don't get a viral or toxin proc on our enemies then our fourth ability is lessened.

 

Sure we can use the molt and venom combo however their are a few problems with that. First of all getting venom onto the molt would be difficult when the enemies are crowding around it. Then there is the duration problem most people mod for damage on Saryn and negative duration, meaning the clone doesn't last for long. Lastly later into the game molt will only take one hit meaning only one enemy gets affected by venom. If the clone spread venom when exploding, that would look great.

 

The sort of synergy I would like to see is that between Frost's powers snow globe and freeze. It's not that they depend on each other or anything. Combined they just allow for some utility and some more damage. With Saryn however it's sounding like to get mass damage out of our abilities we are going to have to take viral and toxin elements on our weapons or combine multiple abilities.

 

 

Now by definition and by name miasma is a gaseous cloud of death. At the moment it looks and sounds like Saryn is flinging sludge at people however that's not the main issue. The issue I see is that miasma is still a nuke ability and from what we know about nuke abilities they don't scale well into late game. These nuke abilities deal minor damage later into the game and quite frankly it's much easier just to take a utility frame like Vauban or Loki. The only frames with damaging fourth abilities that do scale well later into the game are those with a stance ability that comes with pros and cons (except Excal, it's all pros). Even after forcing all of her abilities onto the enemy (and surviving) I still don't see miasma being that helpful damage or utility wise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know that i'm a nobody lurking on the forum for the past years finally gonna crawl out of my little cave.

  Saryn has been by far the Warframe i've used the most till today Since the Beta. I love everything, and i mean EVERYTHING on her, from her kit to her looks. It was love at first sight. But there's something that always bothering me.
 
 Shouldn't Saryn being a toxic-based frame, should also be immune to the toxic proc, no? I mean, i'm aware that her lovely Molt takes away any status proc's, but nearby a toxic ancient (especially when they start swarming you) its hard to go around it. I know we can always rely on our lord and savior Trinity's, but, why not placing Saryn on a spotlight, showing who's the bawss of all toxicity!

  I would kill to watch Saryn laugh (Insert Nelson laugh from the Simpsons here) at the face of high level Ancient Toxic's while you're team is begging for a revive!  And even something similar to other frames like Ember being immune to fire proc, i mean, she's the queen of all burning Hell's, yet she get's burned? D:

 This was just my 2 cents and me ranting (just a little) about these fantastic ladies!

Cheers!  - Crawl back to the cave - 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...