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[DE]Rebecca

Developer Workshop: Saryn Ability Rework

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It doesn't need to be replaced. It just needs to be improved, Damage 2.0 nerfed it. It just needs to get back to it's old glorious state with a solid rework. With the "current" rework, if it doesn't have stacking limitations, it will be quite similar to the old Acrid which will make it definitely one of the best melee buffs out there.

and still have ~1/5 of the use in Combat as most Abilities have nowadays.

you don't technically need to replace it, but the number of extra features it needs to have in order to be a complete Ability effectively make it a new Ability.

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and still have ~1/5 of the use in Combat as most Abilities have nowadays.

you don't technically need to replace it, but the number of extra features it needs to have in order to be a complete Ability effectively make it a new Ability.

Totally agree

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and still have ~1/5 of the use in Combat as most Abilities have nowadays.

you don't technically need to replace it, but the number of extra features it needs to have in order to be a complete Ability effectively make it a new Ability.

Even if there are tons of added feature YET it remains a melee buff, you can't really consider it a new ability, a melee buff is a melee buff. There's no such thing as you add this and that to this "melee buff" and it becomes a new ability.

Edited by LisRestall

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on the Abilities Menu?

at the bottom, click the button to show numbers with Mods calculated in on the Abilities Menu.

its suppose to be at 23.5 meters, but when destroying canisters, they only break within the 10 meter radius.

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P59tVU4.jpg

 

I've been holding off on the Exilus adapter in waiting for Saryn Prime, but this is my solo t4 Survival setup. The thing with Saryn, as of now, is that she needs so many defense mods to not have nullifiers one shot you, that the number of slots you get towards anything else is pretty small. The best I've managed with this build is 55min, cheesing out the last 5 pulling mobs all over the place while I ping pong between life support capsules.

 

Of my 54 days of in mission time, 61% of that is Saryn. This setup is an attempt to keep her alive in the later phases of the game, as I often like to go 8 rounds on Draco, or 45+ mins in t4 survivals. Durability, at that point, is the name of the game, as anything less than an Abrams gets torn to pieces.

 

Could we perhaps have her Contagion reworked into a defensive steroid? Or make Miasma a more reliable stun? In all my hours playing her, Contagion is only used when I fat finger molt/miasma. As it stands in the current dev build, I will just use it to detonate venom.

 

My 2 cents. I like what I see so far though. I'm overjoyed to see Saryn get some attention. 

Edited by JuanDeages
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Maybe a venon spore cloud can be cool as a passive skill when suffer melee atacks

Edited by (PS4)xKAIOWAx

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One of the biggest kinks in Contagion is that it has to be cast preemptively along with the rest of her kit for her to fully synergize.

 

What if you made Contagion a toggle like Nox's Pacify/Provoke? Toggle it on with no constant drain, but every swing has the toxin bonus and drains some energy. You could even go as far as making it an aura so allies can also benefit from it, also draining from her energy pool in the same fashion as P/P. This will make it one less skill to cast in the heat of battle, while also taking the edge off a reliance on duration.

 

Might be a "less active" way to play, but having to cast all 4 of her skills every time to want to kill a crowd is a bit obnoxious. It's also a more intuitive way to play her. A duration version may cost less per swing if you were swinging constantly, but if there's a small crowd and you only need to swing a few times, draining 5 energy per swing is still 35 energy not wasted on time between enemies.

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I have to admit, I first thought when reading this that it was a player not admin talking about suggested changes...

Although they are all well and good - increasing the potency and synergy of Saryn's moves - Venom and Contagion are both a little gimmicky in my opinion:

Damage over time abilities are all well and good, but in such a fast past game, and with playing one of the most fast paced characters (running room to room nuking mobs), having to stand around while someone dies or something can be a completely arbitrary option. Its just a little out of place being something u spray across mobs to toxin dots - if you were going to kill a room full of mobs, corpus or not, you would not use Venom, you would use Miasma.

In regards to contagion, this is such a niche ability, its something that one would only use if they were a pure melee build; which is fine, and there are people that do that, but with Parkour 2.0 now, and with it, the ability to dodge without a fast weapon, and also that you can reload while doing bullet jumps, focusing on going melee isn't something one necessarily needs to think about.
Certainly as far as I have experienced, they are more of a good utility or backup weapon for most people, such as the knockdown of Kestrel, anti-nullifier blast of the Glaive/Prime, broad sweeping slash attacks of the Scindo/Galatine/Gram, or the crowd control of the Jat Kittag as a few examples.
My suggestion would be to have Contagion as the first ability, and have an alternative third ability.

This third ability could follow on from classes like Loki or Ash, where it can be an application of their ability types / skills, but is more of a support move to give playing them flow, i.e. Loki's switch teleport to momentarily confuse tough mobs like Bombars or Heavy Gunners, and Ash's teleport to take out individual tough targets, or more for stealth.

I think that I can say that overall, most people will prefer to use individual abilities in specific circumstances, and not have to use one after the other unless their a use and forget long duration ability, i.e. Chroma's vex armour and elemental ward, or Mirage's hall of mirrors and eclipse.
I think i can also broadly say that most characters have discrete abilities.

Having to cast Venom and/or contagion later on to defeat tougher mobs just sounds like having a slightly cheaper or more novel way of casting Miasma three times. 
Does no one else get that impression?

I'm sure most people will agree with me when I say that having a good fix now is better than having a quick one - plus, if the fix doesn't all together work, and doesn't alter and improve the way that Saryn plays, then its only a short term solution which will lessen the likelihood of Saryn getting another rework later on.

If Excalibur just had his moves buffed and had it so that casting radial blind before radial javelin increased damage by 100%, then that would have meant more people may play him short term, but that wouldn't have resulted in the overall reaction to try him again, and possibly bring new players to enjoy his play style.

I hope people can upvote what I have said here if they agree, and if not, just contribute to the comment section with why they think certain things will and wont work.

Cheers.

P.S. Thank you DE (in general) for your continued commitment to quality control. I know that perhaps the if its broke, double fix it may not be the best method - see "The Nerf Mentality" (

- hopefully this isn't too scathing, I hope people can see the good in it, and not judge the points based on what he said or the way he feels).
But your work has also led to many aspects of the game feeling better, Parkour 2.0, Mesa and the Ignis being three recent good examples of that.
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I want to put this whole post in all caps... I know its bad but its a REALLY important point with Saryn. Now that she is finally getting a look in this NEEDS to be addressed as it had plagued the game since Saryns release!

 

PLEASE SWAP THE NAMES OF THE 1st ABILITY AND 3rd ABILITY AROUND!!!! (CURRENTLY: CONTAGION AND VENOM)

 

It makes no sense under the current method. 

I have only seen a few people bring this up in this thread and I thank them for bringing up the issue.  Lets jsut look at some definitions

 

When applying a hazardous substance to something (like a blade) you are "envenoming" (to fill or impregnate with venom; make poisonous) it.

 

VENOM

noun: venom; plural noun: venoms
1.a poisonous substance secreted by animals such as snakes, spiders, and scorpions and typically injected into prey or aggressors by biting or stinging.
 
 

Where as a contagion is something that spreads between things.

CONTAGION
kənˈteɪdʒ(ə)n/
noun
noun: contagion
1.the communication of disease from one person or organism to another by close contact.
2.a disease spread by close contact.
 
 
The abilities need their names flipped. The 1st ability is putting contagious orbs on the enemies and the third ability is adding a substance to your melee weapons that cause more damage.
 
PLEASE fix it... Please! I don't want to start begging but I will if needed.
 
I decided to gather some evidence that other people agree that this needing fixing and searched for threads on it.
 
First thing that I find is my own thread from January saying the same thing:
 
 
However NOW is the time to listen to the people and act.
So again list some threads (some new some old) that all have people asking for this change:
 

Threads (Where title of thread or OP mentions need for change)

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/308822-hey-you-lets-just-exchange-a-few-words-about-saryn-ok/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/259425-various-warframe-buffs/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her-the-unnofficial-saryn-rework-thread/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/184138-azamagons-warframe-rebalancing-saryn/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/254474-reworked-saryn-abilities-a-few-ideas/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/166330-saryn-abilities-names/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/376191-saryns-ability-names/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/304136-saryn-venom-versus-contagion/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/105327-saryn-abilities-names/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/69933-rename-saryns-abilities/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/169026-saryns-venom-and-contagion-name-switch/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/178099-we-are-venomsaryn-rework-rantsuggestion/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/276727-saryn-abilities-contagion-venom-names-reversed/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/178983-new-strain-saryn/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/288674-saryn-ability-rework/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/162094-what-i-think-about-saryn-abilities/

 

This person made a thread to try and convince people names were fine and everyone disagreed:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/493052-something-ive-noticed-people-say-alot-about-saryns-ability-names/

 

Replies (replies in Saryn threads where someone says to swap names)

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/203640-shouldnt-they-have-swapped-descriptionsicons/#entry2369997

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/505729-ideas-for-saryns-miasma/#entry5650566

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/170657-i-love-how-no-one-acknowledged-that-saryns/#entry2000470

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/516908-saryn-tank-rework/#entry5774674

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/506086-the-synergy-overhaul-saryn/#entry5656567

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/411165-saryn-discussion/#entry4535571

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/231075-no-changes-for-saryn/#entry2676989

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/30701-saryn-feedback-on-skill-mechanics/#entry277561

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/128930-saryn-20-you-are-my-poison/#entry1540655

 
How many times must this be brought up and forgotten.
 
Please just swap the names already...
 
 
 
 
PLEASE!!!!

 

^^^^^^^^^ ALSO THIS PLEASE DE ^^^^^^^^^

A number of ideas / comments / criticisms I picked up from the comments:

VENOM

-Stun like Frost's 1st ability

-Can cast while moving / airborne

-Spreads to other targets

-Spores pop by themselves

-A radial / 360 degree effect

-Increased casting time

-One handed casting (doesn't impede reloading)

MOLT

-Attracts total attention and works as well as Loki's decoy

-Has a period of invulnerability like Frost's Snow Globe

-To give synergy between this and Contagion, makes Saryn invisible for a few seconds

-The molt's percentage health relates to a temporary dmg reduction effect on Saryn (i.e. duration instead of range version of Night Equinox's Pacifty)

-Make regenerative molt an innate effect

-Better HP scaling overall so its not paper in T4

 

CONTAGION

-Can be put on guns / whatever you have equipped

-Gives an AOE around Saryn which protects her or does dmg to mobs

-Synergy between this and Venom will be awkward

-Make it a team buff

-Increases attack, run and knockdown recovery speed to make her better at melee

-To make her a better melee frame, give her more armour

 

MIASMA

-You've added more damage, but not more scaling (growth is not additive, it is exponential)

-Increased cost because of synergy with other abilities (175+ total energy)

-Therefore she needs a greater energy pool

-Instead, make it a toggle like Mend and Maim, which procs corrosives, stuns, DOTs etc

-Lessen the burst DPS and make it more of a DOT

-Duration boosts dmg with diminishing returns (i.e. 1k / 1s = 1000 and 1k / 10s = 6000 - to explain diminishing effect)

Edited by Redderbone
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One of the biggest kinks in Contagion is that it has to be cast preemptively along with the rest of her kit for her to fully synergize.

 

What if you made Contagion a toggle like Nox's Pacify/Provoke? Toggle it on with no constant drain, but every swing has the toxin bonus and drains some energy. You could even go as far as making it an aura so allies can also benefit from it, also draining from her energy pool in the same fashion as P/P. This will make it one less skill to cast in the heat of battle, while also taking the edge off a reliance on duration.

 

Might be a "less active" way to play, but having to cast all 4 of her skills every time to want to kill a crowd is a bit obnoxious. It's also a more intuitive way to play her. A duration version may cost less per swing if you were swinging constantly, but if there's a small crowd and you only need to swing a few times, draining 5 energy per swing is still 35 energy not wasted on time between enemies.

 

A toggle ability that isn´t reliant on duration?

 

Tell me more ... :)

 

Because ... energy drain per hit is only "allowed" to channelling right now and toggle would be the only left solution...

Edited by VoidNomade

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A toggle ability that isn´t reliant on duration?

 

Tell me more ... :)

 

Because ... energy drain per hit is only "allowed" to channelling right now and toggle would be the only left solution...

Lol well like I said, take Equinox's Day 3, Provoke, for an example. You toggle it on, it has an initial cast cost, but after that it simply stays on without any further draining until you or a nearby ally casts an ability, 3 or 5 energy per ability cast or something like that. Contagion would behave similarly, except it would be with each melee swing instead of each ability cast. I think it's a pretty fitting change to the ability.

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I think it's a pretty fitting change to the ability.

still needs more features (more than.... just one) to be a complete Ability, but that certainly sounds useful and allows you to not have to mash all of the buttons in Combat at once.

 

(going full Toxic Warrior is fine to me, gives an excuse for Saryn to gain an Armor Bonus which makes a 'Snake Skin' Effect on her - possibly one gained for Melee Damage / Kills rather than instant after Casting)

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And lo Nuker Saryn went down into the crypt to die a lonesome death

But yey they returned in all their splendour as Synergy Saryn in the year 2015 of our saviour RNGesus.

 

nice, Saryn will be a popular choice again. Her skills should have good synergy now.

 

She's always been a popular choice for exterminates and invasions. As Frost is for defence, mobile defence and excavation.

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Developer Workshop: Saryn Ability Rework

 

 

100% with you on this one

Edited by Kiochy

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Judging by Rebecca's perfomance against a level 40 Bombard in the last devstream, if it was not a bug, I assume Miasma didn’t drain even 5% of his life. maybe they have forgotten to mention that 100% of Miasma base damage wasn’t the same as it is now. I really do not understand what's the problem by having a character who has a skill able to kill on area as she does now. Many games have a Wizard / Warlock / Mage where most players use preferably an unique ability to cause area damage in order to clear the map. Oberon and Frost also have 4th-like abilities, even though, we don't stop using their other skills. The problem is not the "press 4 to kill all" but the fact that her other skills are not quite useful. Each player has his favorite play style, I can't see a problem on that. If the Nerf actually happen, players will stop using Saryn (as they did with Mesa) and will start to build Oberon and Frost for fourth skill (until they got nerfed too). It's not like I use Saryn for all kind of mission. If they want to make Saryn useful on high level missions, fine. But not by nerfing Miasma.

Edited by mazzuc0
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Instead of making her 1,2 & 3 useful you killed her miasma, the only thing she had going for her.

She was the only frame that benefited from a negative duration build without her skills being a toggle

Post rework Saryn has no dmg, no CC and therefore no reason to be used anymore.

When a damn skana does more damage than all skills combined you should know you screwed up badly.

My recomendation: scrap it and try again

  • Upvote 7

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Can contagion actually do something other than damage? like speed boost and damage reduction?

and make enemies affected by miasma have reduced damage other than just a brief stun?

 

^^^^^^^^^ ALSO THIS PLEASE DE ^^^^^^^^^

A number of ideas / comments / criticisms I picked up from the comments:

VENOM

-Stun like Frost's 1st ability
-Can cast while moving / airborne
-Spreads to other targets

-Spores pop by themselves

-A radial / 360 degree effect

-Increased casting time

-One handed casting (doesn't impede reloading)

MOLT

-Attracts total attention and works as well as Loki's decoy

-Has a period of invulnerability like Frost's Snow Globe

-To give synergy between this and Contagion, makes Saryn invisible for a few seconds

-The molt's percentage health relates to a temporary dmg reduction effect on Saryn (i.e. duration instead of range version of Night Equinox's Pacifty)
-Make regenerative molt an innate effect

-Better HP scaling overall so its not paper in T4

 

CONTAGION

-Can be put on guns / whatever you have equipped

-Gives an AOE around Saryn which protects her or does dmg to mobs

-Synergy between this and Venom will be awkward

-Make it a team buff

-Increases attack, run and knockdown recovery speed to make her better at melee

-To make her a better melee frame, give her more armour

 

MIASMA

-You've added more damage, but not more scaling (growth is not additive, it is exponential)

-Increased cost because of synergy with other abilities (175+ total energy)

-Therefore she needs a greater energy pool

-Instead, make it a toggle like Mend and Maim, which procs corrosives, stuns, DOTs etc

-Lessen the burst DPS and make it more of a DOT

-Duration boosts dmg with diminishing returns (i.e. 1k / 1s = 1000 and 1k / 10s = 6000 - to explain diminishing effect)

and this^
Edited by akira_him

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-snip-

both sides need to happen. Miasma being an instant win button compared to almost all other Abilities due to the absolutely Overpowered Damage it deals is unacceptable.

 

the other Abilities not having interesting Synergy and especially Contagion needing more purpose and uses? certainly.

doesn't change the other side of it. again, both sides need to happen.

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Instead of completely destroying low duration Miasma DE should leave it as is and buff other abilities considerably so duration builds would be as viable. This way no one will waste forma and the frame would be playable in a different play style outside of press 4 to win. Everyone will be happy.

  • Upvote 7

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both sides need to happen. Miasma being an instant win button compared to almost all other Abilities due to the absolutely Overpowered Damage it deals is unacceptable.

 

the other Abilities not having interesting Synergy and especially Contagion needing more purpose and uses? certainly.

doesn't change the other side of it. again, both sides need to happen.

 

I know it seems to be overpower. But it's only viable agains't low/mid level enemies. I don't see Saryn playing 40+ waves T4 Defenses, It's much more usefull to use damage buff / support frames like Equinox/Banshee/Trinity/Nyx. You would be crazy to stand outside a frost globe on a wave 100 just to use 3 (Contagion) and melee an enemy, it's hit kill.

 

Keeping Miasma, as it is now, against low/mid level enemies and improving the sinergy between her abilities to make viable in some way against high level enemies would be much more appreciated IMO. The same concept of "instant win button" applies to Oberon and Frost. I would expect a nerf to them very soon too, because players will start to use them in place of Saryn.

 

I don't think it's overpower, it's a strong 2/3 forma frame against low/mid level enemies. 

Edited by mazzuc0
  • Upvote 6

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The same concept of "instant win button" applies to Oberon and Frost.

it does, yes.

 

however - Reckoning does reasonable Damage (1250 Radiation is not that insane, especially compared to what people abuse with Miasma that is a minimum of 12,000 Corrosive), but it's best used as a CC Ability realistically. Blinds Enemies, knocks them down, applies Radiation, lots of good stuff.

 

Avalanche.... i find it very annoying that i try to use it to Freeze a big group of Enemies, but then they all just die to the Damage :|

 

 

the argument of "oh it doesn't Kill N Level Enemy so it's not Overpowered" doesn't get more valid the more times people use it as an argument.

it still blows anything else out of the water that doesn't scale off of Enemies or Players(like Polarize or Antimatter Drop/Absorb).

the context for something's effectiveness is in context of the other things around it, not what it's used against.

  • Upvote 2

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I don't think it's a matter of whether any particular ability is overpowered. To me, there are two questions that tell you whether or not a power (or a set of powers) needs a rework.

 

1) Is the power in question central to the most effective playstyle with that character?

2) Is that playstyle engaging?

 

With Saryn, Miasma is certainly central to her most effective playstyle. Min duration max power Miasma is, in terms of damage output, the best button to press on Saryn pretty much always.

 

But it's not a very engaging playstyle. You run in, you press 4, you collect the drops, you move on. "Not engaging" doesn't necessarily mean "not fun", of course. There's certainly a lot of satisfaction to be had in one-button-nuking an entire room. But it's not very active. It's not demanding. Not to insult anyone, but it doesn't really require any skill, beyond knowing what mods to put where in your build.

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