Hydroid Overhaul By D20 : Making Hydroid More Elusive + Passive.

[LascarCapable]

That thread will be a bit shorter than my usual overhaul threads, because IMO Hydroid is pretty close from being good enough since the modifications to Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm. I used to ask for those two to be recastable and also stackable in the case of Tempest Barrage, now that the job is done we still have a few tweaks to do in order to see Hydroid shine, and most of them are quality of life changes.

 

Hydroid is supposed to be like water : one should expect an elusive frame with a lot of ways to avoid damage. It's the case with Tidal Surge that allows Hydroid to travel quickly across the room while avoiding damage and Undertow that allows him do disappear for a while. Hydoid is also a CC frame, and not the half of one : he has a CC effect on every single skill he has, though that CC is somewhat random for two of his skills : Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm. That lack of reliability was fixed for both by making them recastable. However, Hydroid's elusiveness is far from being that good, and could use some improvements.

 

 

Tempest Barrage :

 

With the 17.5 changes that skill became great ! Recastable, stackable... For a first ability it's really powerful. Should we ask for more ? Maybe yes. Because that ability stays pretty random by its own, and also takes a lot of time to be casted, forcing Hydroid to expose himself which is pretty much what you would avoid to.

 

Just a very small change here :

- Tempest Barrage now casts faster.

 

There. It's perfect !

 

 

Tidal Surge and Undertow :

 

While Tidal Surge is good on his own, it has some kind of flaw when you run a high duration build : you hit walls ! A lot ! Also you can't control where you stop, so basically you can only be stopped by reaching the end of that skill's duration or by, well, leaving a mark on the wall... About Undertow, well you are stuck where you activated it, and don't expect enemies to go away. This is why I'd suggest the following QoL changes :

- You can cancel Tidal Surge with another Tidal Surge or by casting Undertow : this allows Hydroid to manoeuver through the map much more easly by casting successive Tidal Surges, and also stop yourself if needed by casting Undertow.

- You can use Tidal Surge while using Undertow : this will cancel Undertow as well though, but you can recast it during Tidal Surge.

 

You can imagine the scenario. You are surrounded by enemies, so you cast Undertow. You then cast Tidal Surge to go away without harm, pop behind your enemies' back and shoot them. You can also chain multiple Tidal Surges through the map without stopping yourself or eating a wall in order to catch up a downed teammate or an objective. Chaining Undertows and Tidal Surges would be a thing, allowing an Hydroid user to easly control his position around the map. Just a bit of basic synergy.

 

 

Tentacle Swarm :

 

Though its more usable since you can recast it, Tentacle Swarm is not such a good CC for a 4th power. And probably not such a good power for its cost. It's random (though it tries to pop directly under enemies), it doesn't prevent you to get harmed, and it's also annoying for some people since it tends to fling enemies a bit everywhere. We can make it a bit better while fitting Hydroid's elusive battle style, while also giving a small QoL change.

 

I suggest the following changes :

- Tentacles now block bullets and projectiles, like a regular entity.

- Tentacles can now be targeted by enemies, and generates a high threat level. So Tentacle Swarm is more or less like summoning a swarm of decoys.

- Each tentacle will have a fixed number of health, affected by power strenght. However, as soon as a tentacle is destroyed, it'll be replaced by a new one that will pop directly under the enemy that gave it the fatal blow, or pop randomly if that enemy is too far away. Don't worry about loosing a tentacle, because it'll be quickly replaced.

- If Hydroid or an ally look at a Tentacle that has caught an enemy, it'll remain still in order to allow you to pick up that enemy with your weapons : now that's a well behaved octopus monster !

 

Here's both QoL changes and additions that fits Hydroid's elusive playstyle, and give to Tentacle Swarm a more "creature from the deep" feel. You would use it more as a way to pop a lot of decoys around you, in order to make sure that no one will target you while activating a life support capsule or something, and evade even more shots.

 

 

Passive :

 

Because passives are a thing now !

 

Just suggesting the following : enemies knocked down by Hydroid's abilities will take +X% more time to get up, X being not such a big value (+20% should be fine). It's more or less a +X% slow effect on knocked down targets. It's like a buff to every single of Hydroid's skills, since all of them are able to CC.

 

 

It was nothing too big, but I gave Hydroid more survivability by buffing his 4th power, and more CC capacity with his passive, as well as a bit of synergy with the two small changes to Undertow and Tidal Surge. Tell me what you think about those changes.

Edited October 21, 2015 by D20
Added Tempest Barrage

[GoSonic]

I think he should have some efficiency in the Uranus Tileset. I do like the passive idea though.

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

Another overhaul,Another thread with good ideas. :)

[Jinmori]

Overall, more mobility during hydroid's powers would be great. Controling tidal surge movements and being able to go further with undertow for example.

 

It would make the warframe more interesting and make peoples use him for something else than farming. Also his stats need to be looked at, he's way too squishy. I understand that he's supposed to represent the water element, but water isn't that weak. Tsunamis are breaking stuff and unstoppable. Hydroid should be too. And he's a pirate for god sake.

 

Edit : Now that i think about it, why is it that a warframe supposed to represent the water element doesn't have any power that makes bullet go through it ? Even zephyr got a bullet repellent to lessen the damages since she has no armor.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Jinmori

[valt123]

+1 for you mate

[AkerTheSpjot]

I like it.

Control and reliability are Hydroid's biggest problems (I wouldn't say the recent changes fixed everything, just make it more tolerable and less punishing). These suggestions give just that, more control and reliablity, bonus points for synergy, passive and making TS feels more lively, like a tamed beast and not some wild flailing noodles.

[Kai_Shiba]

+1 I get what hydroid wants to be, a CC monster. And your ideas are great.

[LascarCapable]

Overall, more mobility during hydroid's powers would be great. Controling tidal surge movements and being able to go further with undertow for example.

 

It would make the warframe more interesting and make peoples use him for something else than farming. Also his stats need to be looked at, he's way too squishy. I understand that he's supposed to represent the water element, but water isn't that weak. Tsunamis are breaking stuff and unstoppable. Hydroid should be too. And he's a pirate for god sake.

 

Edit : Now that i think about it, why is it that a warframe supposed to represent the water element doesn't have any power that makes bullet go through it ? Even zephyr got a bullet repellent to lessen the damages since she has no armor.

 

I don't think Hydroid should be tanky, because he's supposed to be able to evade shots and bullets (Undertow, Tidal Surge, my reworked Tentacle Swarm), while being apple to put pressure on enemies (Tempest Barrage, Tentacle Swarm). You could also feel that elusive aspect back in the days where Stamina was a thing : Hydroid had along with Valkyr the best Stamina stats. That high stamina stat was here in order to allow you to perform more dodges or things like that. Now that stamina is not a thing any anymore, Hydroid could use a bit more shields though, or more max energy in order to allow him to cast his evasive skills more often, or more speed to enhance his elusiveness while doing parkour.

[akira_him]

I just wonder would toggle tidal surge be a thing

[Jinmori]

I don't think Hydroid should be tanky, because he's supposed to be able to evade shots and bullets (Undertow, Tidal Surge, my reworked Tentacle Swarm), while being apple to put pressure on enemies (Tempest Barrage, Tentacle Swarm). You could also feel that elusive aspect back in the days where Stamina was a thing : Hydroid had along with Valkyr the best Stamina stats. That high stamina stat was here in order to allow you to perform more dodges or things like that. Now that stamina is not a thing any anymore, Hydroid could use a bit more shields though, or more max energy in order to allow him to cast his evasive skills more often, or more speed to enhance his elusiveness while doing parkour.

 

I'm not asking for him to be tanky, that would mean to attract ennemies attention, i'm asking for some survivability, which he doesn't have, and which bullet going through would give him, and it would actually make sense considering his theme. He's dying way to fast and way too early in high level missions, he doesn't have enough mobility to make up for it, and when you're using undertow you're basically useless since you can't move. Sure you're incapacitating some ennemies, but it doesn't have any value in a fast paced game like warframe, where ennemies are running everywhere and are coming in an overwhelming number. Not to mention you're not killing them.

 

Fusing undertow and tidal wave and give us control during tidal wave would be for the best in my opinion, since it would add the mobility he lacks.

 

Again, who's playing hydroid for anything else than farming ? For real ?

 

Edit :  expecting the answer "he already has survivability", don't play on words, i mean survivability where you keep playing. 

Edited October 21, 2015 by Jinmori

[LascarCapable]

I'm not asking for him to be tanky, that would mean to attract ennemies attention, i'm asking for some survivability, which he doesn't have, and which bullet going through would give him, and it would actually make sense considering his theme. He's dying way to fast and way too early in high level missions, he doesn't have enough mobility to make up for it, and when you're using undertow you're basically useless since you can't move. Sure you're incapacitating some ennemies, but it doesn't have any value in a fast paced game like warframe, where ennemies are running everywhere and are coming in an overwhelming number.

 

Fusing undertow and tidal wave and give us control during tidal wave would be for the best in my opinion, since it would add the mobility he lacks.

 

Again, who's playing hydroid for anything else than farming ? For real ?

 

Read the overhaul of Tentacle Swarm. It should bring up what you are looking for.

 

(PS : I pretty oftenly play Hydroid without farming purposes)

[Jinmori]

Read the overhaul of Tentacle Swarm. It should bring up what you are looking for.

 

(PS : I pretty oftenly play Hydroid without farming purposes)

 

I guessed you were using him thanks, you wouldn't have made a thread otherwise, but i'm afraid you're pretty much the only one (or at least one of the few, which makes you a minority).

Even experienced players don't use hydroid because of his lack of usefulness. You just need to take a look at how many hydroids you see in general in public missions, that is none, except when it comes to farming.

 

And putting everything on tentacle swarm will only make him a one trick pony, which he already is for the farm. I'd like to see a graphic for hydroid powers use by the players, no surprise guaranteed.

 

Edit (yeah i edit a lot on well thought threads) : Anyway, like many frames, he's getting old with the new reworks (excal, valkyr and such), and he deserves more utility.

I do agree with you initial post, i just think he needs more to be "great" and not average.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Jinmori

[LascarCapable]

I guessed you were using him thanks, you wouldn't have made a thread otherwise, but i'm afraid you're pretty much the only one (or at least one of the few, which makes you a minority).

Even experienced players don't use hydroid because of his lack of usefulness. You just need to take a look at how many hydroids you see in general in public missions, that is none, except when it comes to farming.

 

And putting everything on tentacle swarm will only make him a one trick pony, which he already is for the farm. I'd like to see a graphic for hydroid powers use by the players, no surprise guaranteed.

 

Edit (yeah i edit a lot on well thought threads) : Anyway, like many frames, he's getting old with the new reworks (excal, valkyr and such), and he deserves more utility.

I do agree with you initial post, i just think he needs more to be "great" and not average.

 

I strongly disagree : I seriously doubt that he would end being a one trick pony. Tidal Surge is a fine mobility skill, and Tempest Barrage can be used without restraint from across the map as both an aera denial tool and a generic CC. Undertow is not that much seducing in his current state, but I fixed it by allowing Hydroid to chain it with Tidal Surge, while also allowing Tidal Surge to chain with Undertow. Like this, an Hydroid low on shields can still CC the map with Undertow and Tidal Surge combos for his allies while waiting for his shieds to replenish, dispell undertow whenever he's ready and come back to killing. An intelligent Hydroid may also try to reunite every enemies in his Undertow with Tidal Surge, then release all of them and smash them with an AoE weapon. Add to this that CC effects are improved by his passive : enemies will take a longer time to get up from all of his abilities.

 

A new user of that frame would probably just use his 4th skill, but one that really knows his job won't limit himself to a single skill, I positive.

[sappinmahsentry]

How many of these good reworks have you dropped? 20?

 

Good work! I would love to have a tentacle monster!~

[Jinmori]

I strongly disagree : I seriously doubt that he would end being a one trick pony. Tidal Surge is a fine mobility skill, and Tempest Barrage can be used without restraint from across the map as both an aera denial tool and a generic CC. Undertow is not that much seducing in his current state, but I fixed it by allowing Hydroid to chain it with Tidal Surge, while also allowing Tidal Surge to chain with Undertow. Like this, an Hydroid low on shields can still CC the map with Undertow and Tidal Surge combos for his allies while waiting for his shieds to replenish, dispell undertow whenever he's ready and come back to killing. An intelligent Hydroid may also try to reunite every enemies in his Undertow with Tidal Surge, then release all of them and smash them with an AoE weapon. Add to this that CC effects are improved by his passive : enemies will take a longer time to get up from all of his abilities.

 

A new user of that frame would probably just use his 4th skill, but one that really knows his job won't limit himself to a single skill, I positive.

 

I strongly disagree to you disagreeing. Lots of pretty terms and that's about it, throwing in your "skills" wont change much to the fact that hydroid gets killed in 2 seconds by lvl 40 ennemies, undertow or not. Your gameplay is your gameplay, it's great, i'm glad for you that you know how to use your frame, really. Doesn't make it any better. I'm also guessing you have the right mods, and your hydroid is optimized for the build you're speaking of, noobs don't. CC is great, what a warframe should be in general is an all rounder (because some peoples actually play solo, shocking right?), thing is hydroid in his actual state isn't even good at damaging or CCing, and he has no survivability. He's not even specialized enough to be of healthy use. You can tell me how great you use him all you want, it's pretty much like every guy on this forum saying "no, i do great with this frame, don't change it that way" (for instance, mesa before her change on peacemaker).

 

Again, i'm not against your suggestion. But he needs more to be of use outside of farming. And no putting everything on tentacle swarm.

In his actual state, he's pretty underwhelming. I'll ask you again to count how many hydroids you see in your missions, and to stop thinking about yourself and your "skillz", just because you "think" you use him right doesn't mean it makes him efficient, it is not a valuable point, especially considering how little players use him and for good reasons.

You're not alone and everyone deserves a say on this frame. And i say he deserves more survivability. 

[LascarCapable]

I just wonder would toggle tidal surge be a thing

 

Probably not... It feels wierdish. I don't have any good arguments against that, but I have no good arguments for it either. :/

[Wolfchild07]

And the tentacles shall be made to look like actual tentacles so we can colour them properly. :P

[Ozamchist]

I do not use hydroid as a farming tool never have never going too.

I strongly agree with the tidal surge and undertow having synergy. That's the only serious issue I have with his kit. Although I do find the idea of tentacle swarm having some bullet blocking properties alluring, it would certainly make solo defenses with him a little more secure.

[LascarCapable]

I'm adding a small buff to Tempest Barrage :

 

- Now has a faster casting speed.

 

The reason is because without Natural Talent, that skill's animation really takes a long time to be put up, not counting the fact that Tempest Barrage also has a small time between when you cast the skill and when you actually see the barrage falling, making it even more slower to come. It's probably wiser to allow Hydroid the expose less himself to cast his first skill, especially if you want to fight against high level ones.

[Jin_Lightning]

There's an 'Archer' quote that works here...

 

But yes, I want. All of it.

Hydroid is my 3rd favorite frame, and I want him loved!

 

-Jin

[Volinus7]

+100 summon type abilities that can draw enemies fire are always the best.

[BlackCoMerc]

That thread will be a bit shorter than my usual overhaul threads, because IMO Hydroid is pretty close from being good enough since the modifications to Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm. I used to ask for those two to be recastable and also stackable in the case of Tempest Barrage, now that the job is done we still have a few tweaks to do in order to see Hydroid shine, and most of them are quality of life changes.

 

Hydroid is supposed to be like water : one should expect an elusive frame with a lot of ways to avoid damage. It's the case with Tidal Surge that allows Hydroid to travel quickly across the room while avoiding damage and Undertow that allows him do disappear for a while. Hydoid is also a CC frame, and not the half of one : he has a CC effect on every single skill he has, though that CC is somewhat random for two of his skills : Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm. That lack of reliability was fixed for both by making them recastable. However, Hydroid's elusiveness is far from being that good, and could use some improvements.

 

 

Tempest Barrage :

 

With the 17.5 changes that skill became great ! Recastable, stackable... For a first ability it's really powerful. Should we ask for more ? Maybe yes. Because that ability stays pretty random by its own, and also takes a lot of time to be casted, forcing Hydroid to expose himself which is pretty much what you would avoid to.

 

Just a very small change here :

- Tempest Barrage now casts faster.

 

There. It's perfect !

 

 

Tidal Surge and Undertow :

 

While Tidal Surge is good on his own, it has some kind of flaw when you run a high duration build : you hit walls ! A lot ! Also you can't control where you stop, so basically you can only be stopped by reaching the end of that skill's duration or by, well, leaving a mark on the wall... About Undertow, well you are stuck where you activated it, and don't expect enemies to go away. This is why I'd suggest the following QoL changes :

- You can cancel Tidal Surge with another Tidal Surge or by casting Undertow : this allows Hydroid to manoeuver through the map much more easly by casting successive Tidal Surges, and also stop yourself if needed by casting Undertow.

- You can use Tidal Surge while using Undertow : this will cancel Undertow as well though, but you can recast it during Tidal Surge.

 

You can imagine the scenario. You are surrounded by enemies, so you cast Undertow. You then cast Tidal Surge to go away without harm, pop behind your enemies' back and shoot them. You can also chain multiple Tidal Surges through the map without stopping yourself or eating a wall in order to catch up a downed teammate or an objective. Chaining Undertows and Tidal Surges would be a thing, allowing an Hydroid user to easly control his position around the map. Just a bit of basic synergy.

 

 

Tentacle Swarm :

 

Though its more usable since you can recast it, Tentacle Swarm is not such a good CC for a 4th power. And probably not such a good power for its cost. It's random (though it tries to pop directly under enemies), it doesn't prevent you to get harmed, and it's also annoying for some people since it tends to fling enemies a bit everywhere. We can make it a bit better while fitting Hydroid's elusive battle style, while also giving a small QoL change.

 

I suggest the following changes :

- Tentacles now block bullets and projectiles, like a regular entity.

- Tentacles can now be targeted by enemies, and generates a high threat level. So Tentacle Swarm is more or less like summoning a swarm of decoys.

- Each tentacle will have a fixed number of health, affected by power strenght. However, as soon as a tentacle is destroyed, it'll be replaced by a new one that will pop directly under the enemy that gave it the fatal blow, or pop randomly if that enemy is too far away. Don't worry about loosing a tentacle, because it'll be quickly replaced.

- If Hydroid or an ally look at a Tentacle that has caught an enemy, it'll remain still in order to allow you to pick up that enemy with your weapons : now that's a well behaved octopus monster !

 

Here's both QoL changes and additions that fits Hydroid's elusive playstyle, and give to Tentacle Swarm a more "creature from the deep" feel. You would use it more as a way to pop a lot of decoys around you, in order to make sure that no one will target you while activating a life support capsule or something, and evade even more shots.

 

 

Passive :

 

Because passives are a thing now !

 

Just suggesting the following : enemies knocked down by Hydroid's abilities will take +X% more time to get up, X being not such a big value (+20% should be fine). It's more or less a +X% slow effect on knocked down targets. It's like a buff to every single of Hydroid's skills, since all of them are able to CC.

 

 

It was nothing too big, but I gave Hydroid more survivability by buffing his 4th power, and more CC capacity with his passive, as well as a bit of synergy with the two small changes to Undertow and Tidal Surge. Tell me what you think about those changes.

Brilliant ideas. Love the possibility of chaining Tidal Surge and undertow. Well done.

[Kai_Shiba]

To add, what if when you cancel undertow, instead of the enemies popping up, why not shoot them up like a geyser?

[Maicael]

Just to add something to help with Undertow, why not make it to where you can move? Nothing drastic, just between 0.25-0.5 of walking speed. I'm considering it during stealth when you drop into a puddle before being seen by a nearby patrol, but he stops just outside of your reach, so you flow over to him and sink him into the deep. Also, would be handy if you're making a chokepoint or something that needs to be adjusted a bit after casting without having to come out of the power, adjust, and recast it.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Maicael

[w00tm0ng3r]

Hydroid is one of those frames that I really want to like but can't. The ideas behind his skills are awesome. He's got 3 MOBA ultimates (Gangplank's cannon barrage as his 1, He Bo's tidal wave as 2, and Poseidon's kraken as 4 plus Vlad's signature trollpool as 3). As you've deduced his problems are control and reliability.

 

His 1 and 4 share a problem: increasing range makes them less reliable. Spreading the same number of tentacles/cannon shots around a larger area decreases their concentration and thus likelihood of actually hitting something. They're not like other abilities that simply hit every enemy in the radius. For his 1 I would increase the number of shots and their area of effect to make it more likely to hit something. Tentacle swarm needs to have more than 12 tentacles, full stop. The fact that an ultimate that barely does damage (and so is only used for CC)  can only CC 12 things at a time is pretty pathetic. I guess the other option would be to have the tentacles do actual damage, which makes sense if you think about it. A creature strong enough to bring down ships should be able to do more than just fondle enemies inappropriately.

 

I feel like logically speaking his 2 should drag enemies the full length of the ability and release them all in a clump at the end. That's what I expected to happen when I read the description and saw the animation. Mobility, temporary invulnerability, and clumping enemies together for aoe would make the ability well worth casting, though it's also hard to shake the feeling a mobility ability should only cost 25 energy. To alleviate that and bring some more control in, I would give this ability a unique element no other dash currently in the game has: the ability to turn while dashing. The dash moves slowly enough for it to work, maybe slow it down slightly. Turn with the mouse as if you were running forward normally, cancel the dash with right click or pressing 2 again (if you've played Smite or LoL this is how Sion's ult and Vamana's dash work).

 

The main problem with his 3 is you can't move. It feels more like a button you press when you need a bathroom break and don't have a Huras then an escape mechanism. I would prefer being able to move at a reduced rate but I would also be fine with chaining into tidal surge. Tidal surge could be pretty cool. You suck enemies into the pool, turn into a wave to collect more enemies (this relies on tidal surge carrying enemies all the way as I suggested, which would add everyone you already collected to the new ones along the way), then either end the chain to deposit both clumps of enemies into one heap or chain back into pool to collect more enemies.

Edited November 9, 2015 by w00tm0ng3r