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Dual Broncos And Bronco Not Having Damage Falloff


matrixEXO
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Only 2 pellets hit the target at 10 meters and did 7 and 8 damage! OP NURRRFFFFF!!!!

 

Try hitting something at range with them and you will see that there is no problem here.

Try modding it well At 30 meters 1-2 pellets hit for more than the whole shot of an equaly modded hek. Give the bronco fall off and it just goes in the trash and i grab my akboltos or lato vandal. A marginal increase of short range dps is not worth losing all mid/long ranged dps. Bronco is one of the higer dps pistols a stat nerf would be more apporiate.

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Try modding it well At 30 meters 1-2 pellets hit for more than the whole shot of an equaly modded hek. Give the bronco fall off and it just goes in the trash and i grab my akboltos or lato vandal. A marginal increase of short range dps is not worth losing all mid/long ranged dps. Bronco is one of the higer dps pistols a stat nerf would be more apporiate.

I would rather have Broncos' bullet grouping slightly tighter with a damage drop-off of starting from 5m and the damage drop-off to be low so that it reaches Hek's minimum damage at Hek's maximum drop-off point. Would fit as a shotgun pistol much better than it is currently.

Edited by matrixEXO
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I think the huge spread was the charm of the bronco. 5 meters is a bit small as some of the smallest rooms in the game are 12 meters long. Also some I think some Melee weapons can swing farther than that with a reach mod. What needs to change is hek falloff needs to be capped at 30-50% reduced damage instead of getting 93% damage loss by 30 meters. By the way a cross connector in the dojo is 35 meters long and an excalibur can slash dash 26 meters. A 30 meter range cap for the hek is too small to be considered a mid ranged shotgun.

 

I think pistols having things like 220% damage mod is also part of the problem. Most pistols do the same damage as a primary weapon compare a bolto to a boltor. The 220% mod kinda unbalances things to pistols. Being limited to 30% ap was to balance it but damage is calculated and other elementals scale off it so the loss of ap damage isnt that much due to base damage scaling.

 

 

One more thing. Shotguns point blank sucking and flechtte being good makes no sense. They have the oppsite of pistols poor base damage increase but a high armor piercing mod. Should shotgun mods improve damage well as thats their specialty but have a poor armor piercing mod as they are poor at penetration.

Edited by Meltina
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I think the huge spread was the charm of the bronco. 5 meters is a bit small as some of the smallest rooms in the game are 12 meters long. Also some I think some Melee weapons can swing farther than that with a reach mod. What needs to change is hek falloff needs to be capped at 30-50% reduced damage instead of getting 93% damage loss by 30 meters. By the way a cross connector in the dojo is 35 meters long and an excalibur can slash dash 26 meters. A 30 meter range cap for the hek is too small to be considered a mid ranged shotgun.

 

I think pistols having things like 220% damage mod is also part of the problem. Most pistols do the same damage as a primary weapon compare a bolto to a boltor. The 220% mod kinda unbalances things to pistols. Being limited to 30% ap was to balance it but damage is calculated and other elementals scale off it so the loss of ap damage isnt that much due to base damage scaling.

I would disagree with the Hek getting a damage buff. It has too crazy a damage value even at 50% damage. I would prefer to see the maximum range damage to be 20%. A shotgun is meant to be semi-unusable in mid range combat anyway. 30m is the best distance for the damage to fully scale off. Any closer and it's not a mid-range shotgun and any further and it becomes a mid-long range shotgun.

 

I think the problem with the Hek is that it has too much damage with it's range. Compared to the Strun, the damage and range is greatly increased for the price of... 2 bullets? I don't see that as a good balance. Strun should have been the shotgun with high damage but poor range while Hek should be the shotgun with moderately-high damage and good range. Boar is a niche gun focused on spraying so I can't talk about that.

 

Bronco and Dual Broncos are a niche pistol given that they are the only pistols that is practically a shotgun. But because they are a pistol and in order for them to not compete against the primaries of it's kind, they made the spread that wide. Basically, they are designed to be an "Up your face" gun. Without a decent drop-off, it is now a gun that can outperform at certain ranges, something it's not supposed to be. And since pistols are NOT supposed to out-perform their primary counterparts, we need them to balance it.

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Try modding it well At 30 meters 1-2 pellets hit for more than the whole shot of an equaly modded hek. Give the bronco fall off and it just goes in the trash and i grab my akboltos or lato vandal. A marginal increase of short range dps is not worth losing all mid/long ranged dps. Bronco is one of the higer dps pistols a stat nerf would be more apporiate.

with the crapy armor pierce mods for pistols ? sure...........

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Try hitting something at range with them and you will see that there is no problem here.

 

Note: the unzoomed Bronco is all working as intended.... however, use zoom and watch all of its drawbacks mysteriously stop working.The bug isn't in the Bronco's core code, rather the modifier code during zoom seems to undo all of the things that suck about shotguns.

 

Feel a little guilty letting this cat out of the bag, but it was inevitable.

Edited by Qb3rt
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I would disagree with the Hek getting a damage buff. It has too crazy a damage value even at 50% damage. I would prefer to see the maximum range damage to be 20%. A shotgun is meant to be semi-unusable in mid range combat anyway. 30m is the best distance for the damage to fully scale off. Any closer and it's not a mid-range shotgun and any further and it becomes a mid-long range shotgun.

 

I think the problem with the Hek is that it has too much damage with it's range. Compared to the Strun, the damage and range is greatly increased for the price of... 2 bullets? I don't see that as a good balance. Strun should have been the shotgun with high damage but poor range while Hek should be the shotgun with moderately-high damage and good range. Boar is a niche gun focused on spraying so I can't talk about that.

 

Bronco and Dual Broncos are a niche pistol given that they are the only pistols that is practically a shotgun. But because they are a pistol and in order for them to not compete against the primaries of it's kind, they made the spread that wide. Basically, they are designed to be an "Up your face" gun. Without a decent drop-off, it is now a gun that can outperform at certain ranges, something it's not supposed to be. And since pistols are NOT supposed to out-perform their primary counterparts, we need them to balance it.

20% of hek damage is 28 damage if all the pellets hit. A gorgon bullet does 24 damage. Do you really want a hek shell to to deal around the same damage as a gorgon bullet at range. Imagine having a 4 round magazine gorgon thats pretty much what the hek is at that range. Its easy to get the gorgon to get a large percentage of bullets to hit at that range. Hek is listed as the Mid ranged shotgun. I guess the definitions of midrange differ to us. I consider mid range about 30-60 meters.

 

Melee = 0-10

close 10-20

med 30-60

long 60+

 

If you take into accout mod diffrences the new grineer sniper rifle has very close damage to the Hek. Do we make it so the sniper rifle only does 25 damage when below 30 meters to make it be a long range weapon how the hek is foced to be short ranged only. Also spread wise does the gorgon get damage falloff too it spreads like the strun does but it doesnt hit for 1s after 20 meters.

 

I do agree the strun should have been higher damage as the hek as a close range shotgun counterpart. The hek was given over powered damage as it was rank locked at 5 originaly and was ment to be pure upgrade end teir weapons before DE decided to go the sidegrade route.

 

The real reason people thought the hek was OP was damage mods. Point blank being only a 5 rank mod is easy to max shotguns have no 10 rank mods to give them damage. So shotguns hit the damage plateau way before rifles did. You basicly maxed out a hek by the time you did 1/3rd of a rifle. So when you had a rifle 1/3rd of the way upgraded the hek is already at its full potential smashing everything in sight. The problem is once maxed a rifle smashed things harder than the hek. That and the hek was bursty it slowed down due to needing to reload often. Instakills and delays look more powerful than sustained killing speed even if the sustained is more powerful. The fact the hek was near top of the charts of base dps also made it look worse.

 

If they do buff shotgun mods they would have to give both the hek and strun base damage nerfs.

Edited by Meltina
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with the crapy armor pierce mods for pistols ? sure...........

only having 30% armor pierce vs having a 93% range penalty to damage.

Don't forget the damage per shot of the bronco is higher due to 220% hornet strike mod vs 90% point blank mod.

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20% of hek damage is 28 damage if all the pellets hit. A gorgon bullet does 24 damage. Do you really want a hek shell to to deal around the same damage as a gorgon bullet at range. Imagine having a 4 round magazine gorgon thats pretty much what the hek is at that range. Its easy to get the gorgon to get a large percentage of bullets to hit at that range. Hek is listed as the Mid ranged shotgun. I guess the definitions of midrange differ to us. I consider mid range about 30-60 meters.

 

Melee = 0-10

close 10-20

med 30-60

long 60+

 

If you take into accout mod diffrences the new grineer sniper rifle has very close damage to the Hek. Do we make it so the sniper rifle only does 25 damage when below 30 meters to make it be a long range weapon how the hek is foced to be short ranged only. Also spread wise does the gorgon get damage falloff too it spreads like the strun does but it doesnt hit for 1s after 20 meters.

 

I do agree the strun should have been higher damage as the hek as a close range shotgun counterpart. The hek was given over powered damage as it was rank locked at 5 originaly and was ment to be pure upgrade end teir weapons before DE decided to go the sidegrade route.

 

The real reason people thought the hek was OP was damage mods. Point blank being only a 5 rank mod is easy to max shotguns have no 10 rank mods to give them damage. So shotguns hit the damage plateau way before rifles did. You basicly maxed out a hek by the time you did 1/3rd of a rifle. So when you had a rifle 1/3rd of the way upgraded the hek is already at its full potential smashing everything in sight. The problem is once maxed a rifle smashed things harder than the hek. That and the hek was bursty it slowed down due to needing to reload often. Instakills and delays look more powerful than sustained killing speed even if the sustained is more powerful. The fact the hek was near top of the charts of base dps also made it look worse.

 

If they do buff shotgun mods they would have to give both the hek and strun base damage nerfs.

You need to count the damage fall-off calculation as well. Given that within 20m, damage falls off 80%, it means every 1m, damage falls off by 4%. In comparison, a 93% fall-off would cause every 1m to have a 4.65% damage loss. This means that there is a significantly higher damage being retained over a certain distance, making some longer-ranged shots more potent.

 

Problem with balancing fall-off damage is that you need to put into account the maximum damage, minimum damage and every damage shifts in between. Shifting the damage falloff from a maximum of 93% to 80% is actually a buff of (very vague calculation) 90% to it's total damage capability.

 

Each of us DO have our own opinion of how far mid-range is indeed. I don't use meters to calculate in-game because I have nothing to use as a basis of calculation like a ruler or something in there so I judge it by gut feeling.

 

I agree about that last part. Buffing the mods would need to link to nerfing the shotguns.

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hek is 140 damage base. If damage falloff was 80% it does 28 damage at that range. The falloff is super steep for the hek.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/40810-heks-falloff-re-tested-description-change-still-necessary/?hl=%2Bhek+%2Bdamage+%2Bfalloff This is a test someone did post falloff buff.

 

TLDR:

 

5m = 51 damage

10m = 51 damage

15m = 51 damage

19m = 51 damage

20m = 48 damage

25m = 28 damage

28m = 12 damage

29m = 7 damage

30m = 7 damage

 

 

I remembered wrong hek gets to keep 13% of its damage at that range. So an unmodded hek hits for 18 damage premitigation at that range. Hek hits softer than a braton bullet. Admitedly losing only 8% damage per meter after falloff starts is a big buff from losing 8.7%. That middle hallway piece is 26 meters the same as an excaliburs slash dash. That is the point of 48% damage loss if we switch to a 80% damage loss cap. Is it really right your 140 damage hek suddenly hits for 72 damage suddenly while no other gun gets magicly reduced damage. Heck you can still throw a knife full force 110 meters.

 

Lets take it the other way. What if the gorgon at 26 meters suddenly got nerfed to a 15.6 fire rate, 24 round clip, and does 10 damage per bullet for a buff to 2.1 second reload speed. That is what happens to the hek. Oh the gorgon has higher close ranged dps too. So a 20dps nerf at close range too. Would this be fair or reasonable to a rifle.

 

If lets say you wanted the hek to be 1/2 as effective as a braton when out of its effective range then you would need the damage falloff cap to be 44%.

Edited by Meltina
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Note: the unzoomed Bronco is all working as intended.... however, use zoom and watch all of its drawbacks mysteriously stop working.The bug isn't in the Bronco's core code, rather the modifier code during zoom seems to undo all of the things that suck about shotguns.

 

Tried this and found you are very correct. I was consistently dealing headshots at ranges I feel far exceed what the Bronco should be effective for.

 

I wish I had a hawk eye to play with this further.

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hek is 140 damage base. If damage falloff was 80% it does 28 damage at that range. The falloff is super steep for the hek.

 

I remembered wrong hek gets to keep 13% of its damage at that range. So an unmodded hek hits for 18 damage premitigation at that range. Hek hits softer than a braton bullet. Admitedly losing only 8% damage per meter after falloff starts is a big buff from losing 8.7%. That middle hallway piece is 26 meters the same as an excaliburs slash dash. That is the point of 48% damage loss if we switch to a 80% damage loss cap. Is it really right your 140 damage hek suddenly hits for 72 damage suddenly while no other gun gets magicly reduced damage. Heck you can still throw a knife full force 110 meters.

 

Lets take it the other way. What if the gorgon at 26 meters suddenly got nerfed to a 15.6 fire rate, 24 round clip, and does 10 damage per bullet for a buff to 2.1 second reload speed. That is what happens to the hek. Oh the gorgon has higher close ranged dps too. So a 20dps nerf at close range too. Would this be fair or reasonable to a rifle.

 

If lets say you wanted the hek to be 1/2 as effective as a braton when out of its effective range then you would need the damage falloff cap to be 44%.

Given what the weapon's description is, we ought to have Hek turned into a 4 round burst-fire gun then give him a range increase as well as a damage falloff decrease. Then I would appropriately say that it will work since:

 

"The HEK is a powerful shotgun that fires its shots with a tight spread, making it efficient at medium range as long as its strong recoil is properly managed."

 

BTW, is the recoil even strong? No. In fact, I'd label it decent-to-mild. No, the damage fall-off should be increased but the damage should not be 50% of what it's value is. Heck, it shouldn't even be 25% of what it originally is. It's still strong and powerful unless you nerf the bullet spread. Both increased damage falloff and tight spread together is just hell and the ominous Shotgun-sniping will return, coupled with it's insanely weak recoil that is, like how Shotgun Pistol-sniping is right now.

 

Then again, I don't get why you like to derail topics. We are supposed to talk about Bronco and Dual Broncos, not Hek and his miraculous annoyance in both the Snipetron and Vulkar topic and this one.

Edited by matrixEXO
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Oh the derail its just me being bitter. The snipetron and vulkar are known as underperforming weapons yet their performance is better than the prenerf hek except for the reload speed. The broncos fit the same niche as the hek and outperform it in its niche. It means either all those weapons are over powered or the hek was over nerfed. So basicly im trying to force the choice nerf everything as its more op than prenerf hek or fix the hek. I run around wih the snipetron and pretend its a hek with a crappy reload speed. I just point blank shoot and never zoom in and assault with it. Yet the hek gets nerfed for shooting at range but i dont get any penalty for firing my snipetron in melee range. Actualy cant say the snipetron is underperforming after they got the armor ignore buff. Hek got nerfed for being better at range than snipetron. Snipetron gets buff to be better at range. Snipetron is now better at short range than hek. See the problem here. If they did the snipetron buff first the hek wouldnt need to be nerfed for being the better sniper rifle.

 

The hek was the posterboy of so op it needed a massive nerf. It makes sense to use it as a baseline to determine if these weapons need a nerf. Right now snipetron vulkar and broncos are at prenerf hek levels. So do these weapons deserve a 87% close/long range nerf or was the hek nerf too much.

 

Hek is 25% more effective than braton at close range is 67% less effective at range. Isnt a 92% swing in effency a bit obcene. Shouldnt it be more balanced like 25% more effetive than a braton in close range and 25% less effective at long range. To get anywhere near that kind of damage range falloff would have to be capped at around the 30% damage range instead of 87%. Heck i wasnt even asking for hek to keep 70% of its damage at range but that would balance it to a bratons dps.

 

Right now broncos are stronger than prenerf hek at close range but weaker at long range. They are stronger than current hek at close range and much stronger at long range. Please not the bronco has 1 pellet hit for 14% of normal damage so with range it has a 86% damage falloff how much more damage falloff would we have to do to balance this.

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Oh the derail its just me being bitter. The snipetron and vulkar are known as underperforming weapons yet their performance is better than the prenerf hek except for the reload speed. The broncos fit the same niche as the hek and outperform it in its niche. It means either all those weapons are over powered or the hek was over nerfed. So basicly im trying to force the choice nerf everything as its more op than prenerf hek or fix the hek. I run around wih the snipetron and pretend its a hek with a crappy reload speed. I just point blank shoot and never zoom in and assault with it. Yet the hek gets nerfed for shooting at range but i dont get any penalty for firing my snipetron in melee range. Actualy cant say the snipetron is underperforming after they got the armor ignore buff. Hek got nerfed for being better at range than snipetron. Snipetron gets buff to be better at range. Snipetron is now better at short range than hek. See the problem here. If they did the snipetron buff first the hek wouldnt need to be nerfed for being the better sniper rifle.

 

The hek was the posterboy of so op it needed a massive nerf. It makes sense to use it as a baseline to determine if these weapons need a nerf. Right now snipetron vulkar and broncos are at prenerf hek levels. So do these weapons deserve a 87% close/long range nerf or was the hek nerf too much.

 

Hek is 25% more effective than braton at close range is 67% less effective at range. Isnt a 92% swing in effency a bit obcene. Shouldnt it be more balanced like 25% more effetive than a braton in close range and 25% less effective at long range. To get anywhere near that kind of damage range falloff would have to be capped at around the 30% damage range instead of 87%. Heck i wasnt even asking for hek to keep 70% of its damage at range but that would balance it to a bratons dps.

 

Right now broncos are stronger than prenerf hek at close range but weaker at long range. They are stronger than current hek at close range and much stronger at long range. Please not the bronco has 1 pellet hit for 14% of normal damage so with range it has a 86% damage falloff how much more damage falloff would we have to do to balance this.

Can you stop going on about the Hek? If you want to go on, make a topic on it. Stop forcing your ideas into it. I'd like to see you get shot with a sniper rifle point blank, even with bullet vest. Then get shot by a shotgun from 30m away, with a bullet vest. Tell me which one get's more oomph after you live, if you live.

 

 

TL;DR: Stop posting about Hek. This is for Bronco and Dual Broncos. I will report you for topic derailing if you proceed any further.

Edited by matrixEXO
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Ok sticking purely with the bronco. Lets set up some givens.

 

Was the bronco out of line compared to other pistols?

DPS wise the broncos are just below the twin vipers how much reduction in damage should be compensate for the ammo effecncy?

Does the innaccuracy of the bronco make up for the ammo effency when fighting at range?

Do we take ammo effency into account as a major factor considering the price of ammo boxes?

How will we adjust the ranged damage to not beat other weapons at their niche?

 

What weapons is the bronco out performing and underperforming aganst?

 

How will we do a change that will be paralell and match the other changes for the same fixes?

 

If we do shotgun falloff is a solution what percentage shall we do?

 

How do we determine how where it should be as a baseline comapred to other weapons of its niche and class?

 

How much more effective do we want the bronco to be at point blank range?

 

How much less effective do we want the bronco to be at long range?

 

If we want the percentages at short and long range to balance how much stronger must it be and where should the damage falloff cap at?

 

What do we want the broncos effective range to be.

Considering sniper rifles can kill at kilometers and shotguns have over 100 meter lethal range how do we translate this to warframe.

 

How do we determine what is a proper amount of adjustment to make it properly fill its niche?

 

What weapon was considered over powered and had to be adjusted down for being too good?

The gorgon was too good at sniping and had its accuracy reduced.

 

Would reducing the broncos accuracy bring it into line with other pistols?

 

 

Discussing all these will help us find out what sort of changes we need do to the bronco to bring it into line because yes it is op at the moment.

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Ok sticking purely with the bronco. Lets set up some givens.

 

Was the bronco out of line compared to other pistols?

DPS wise the broncos are just below the twin vipers how much reduction in damage should be compensate for the ammo effecncy?

Does the innaccuracy of the bronco make up for the ammo effency when fighting at range?

Do we take ammo effency into account as a major factor considering the price of ammo boxes?

How will we adjust the ranged damage to not beat other weapons at their niche?

 

What weapons is the bronco out performing and underperforming aganst?

 

How will we do a change that will be paralell and match the other changes for the same fixes?

 

If we do shotgun falloff is a solution what percentage shall we do?

 

How do we determine how where it should be as a baseline comapred to other weapons of its niche and class?

 

How much more effective do we want the bronco to be at point blank range?

 

How much less effective do we want the bronco to be at long range?

 

If we want the percentages at short and long range to balance how much stronger must it be and where should the damage falloff cap at?

 

What do we want the broncos effective range to be.

Considering sniper rifles can kill at kilometers and shotguns have over 100 meter lethal range how do we translate this to warframe.

 

How do we determine what is a proper amount of adjustment to make it properly fill its niche?

 

What weapon was considered over powered and had to be adjusted down for being too good?

The gorgon was too good at sniping and had its accuracy reduced.

 

Would reducing the broncos accuracy bring it into line with other pistols?

 

 

Discussing all these will help us find out what sort of changes we need do to the bronco to bring it into line because yes it is op at the moment.

Before you ask this, why don't you think about it yourself and give your own opinion on it. This feels like an interrogation rather than a discussion but I'll answer.

 

 

Broncos are out of line because of the nasty zoom effect which practically removes all the wonders of the Bronco as a melee-ranged weapon (and also since it wasn't fixed for a very long time, I would like to say that either the devs cannot code this piece of equipment or they just don't know how to and leads to why I ask for damage falloff rather than fixing the gun's zoom bug itself). DPS of a Bronco ought to have been obvious, or did you want a Bronco to dish out as much DPS as a Hek?

 

Also, a gun's ammo efficiency should never be governed by players. It's already decided by the devs how ammo efficiency of a specific gun works. Tweaking damage values around does have "some" effect onto ammo efficiency but nothing really note-worthy.

 

Ranged damage adjustment is not something we ought to bother, but the devs should. I'd put my piece on around 5m before damage falloff though, since that's the maximum range where it should shine.

 

Broncos currently outperforming any single shotgun in long ranges, outperforming any pistol in a face-to-face DPS output and currently only underperforming on unscoped ranged combat (spread being a little too wide).

 

What other changes? When damage falloff is implemented, there shouldn't be any other changes unless you expect the Broncos to start dealing 200 damage so it has a more streamline damage disposition. Besides that, Broncos are shotgun pistols. Quite literally putting the shotgun in there so if it ain't getting a damage falloff, it shouldn't have the name shotgun in the sub-type it's in.

 

Percentages are not meant to be done by us. The devs will do the analysis and calculations then give an appropriate value. I'd put my piece on 70% reduction though, if the zoom bug is fixed, but that's just my opinion.

 

Rather, what other weapon are of it's niche and class? I don't see any other guns that needs to be used point-blank only given that it has atrocious spread or whatnot. But the baseline of a shotgun in general is to have an increasing spread over distance. If zooming removes that or reduces it to be a minor existent, it should instead have a fall-off damage. Side note: If you ask me, all guns should have a damage falloff. Makes the game more streamlined and makes weapons like sniper rifles way more viable. But this isn't what I really want to see unless the game turns into a third-person CoD.

 

Broncos are way effective at dishing out enough DPS at point-blank, leave it.

 

Broncos are way ineffective at dishing out low damages at range, given the current zoom bug. Add a falloff damage to fix it so it's in line with how it should be dealing damage over far ranges.

 

There shouldn't need to be any balance in terms of initial damage to be applied in regards to short and long range damages once damage falloff occurs. Especially if the gun was designed for point-blank shots. Only balance would be damage loss percentage over distance and distance where falloff starts.

 

Said above. Point-blank up to 5m.

 

We don't. We are not the developers so we don't do those adjustments for them. They do it and balance it out to fit into the weapon's niche.

 

And the Hek, Boar and Strun were good at sniping with one-hit kill potential and got nerfed. Given that the zoom bug is not seemingly going to be fixed, the gun needs to stop shotgun pistol-sniping so it needs to be nerfed. It's not fitting only into it's niche.

 

No, it cannot be in line with other pistols because it is of it's own class and restrictions. Rather, would like to see a sniper be brought in line with a SMG. Not happening, right?

 

 

While the main reason for all this is the zoom bug, I do think that the Broncos do need some damage falloff to compensate. I also do think that the devs are either not even bothered about their game to look at all their weapons and bring them in line or they don't remember about the weapons, which also gives the impression of not being bothered. Harsh but it's the impression that I got since the few issues that have been occuring. Especially the exploit with Clan dojo and resetting, which was the no.1 idea that I got when just thinking about them both but why didn't the devs ever thought about it?

Edited by matrixEXO
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