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Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.


[DE]Rebecca
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Another frame for the Mastery Fodder bin. 

 

The rework is rubbish. Miasma does not deal nearly enough damage. At 100% Duration and 150% power strength enemies on Draco lose possibly half of their health bar. If that. Occasionally, if I managed to first hit them with spores, they lose perhaps 2/3 to 3/4 instead. So Miasma is now a damage dealing ability that doesnt, nonetheless requiring additional energy to charge its insufficient damage first. For roughly 50 Energy at max Efficiency (which also requires that I sacrifice Duration and/or compensate) I can do perhaps as much damage as Frost's Avalanche, without any of the peripheral benefits thereof.

 

Conclusion:

 

Why would anyone use this frame? Ever?

 

-Forced "Synergy" is a drawback. In theory it probably sounded good. In practice it means more energy for less effect. 

 

-Terrible crowd control: Sure Miasma also staggers (for maybe one second) but so does Chaos (for longer) and that nets you AND the team half a minute of virtual immunity per cast. With no falloff.

 

-Terrible damage. Seriously, I would use Equinox for AoE damage over Saryn now. I'd use Frost. At least he can defend himself - and you dont have spend additional energy to charge Avalanche first. At this point I would use a Duration Rhino over Saryn, once his Iron Skin rework hits.

 

-Terrible Survivability: Survivability means different things, to different frames. Loki has AMAZING survivability, because he is often not seen for minutes at a time. Or even whole missions. And when he is, he distracts and robs enemies of their primary weapons. Nyx has amazing Survivability because, Chaos and Absorb. Trinity, for obvious reasons, and Valkyr the same.

 

Saryn has ZERO survivability. Her entire package is predicated on dealing damage as a means to control the battle. Sure she can distract with her Molt, albeit unreliably, at best. But her entire package depends on killing enemies quickly.

 

Except...now she cant do that. Miasma deals terrible damage, and it takes too long to deal that damage. And using additional abilities or forced weapon builds, just to charge an Ultimate...let me ask you WHY I would mod Vaykor Hek for viral to charge Miasma, when modding it with Corrosive just KILLS ALL THE THINGS without Miasma. 

 

 

One last note: Not only is the overhaul a total failure - seriously, just roll her back for now and start over - but 200 Plat for the skin is just too much. Would love to have that skin - well, if I had a useful frame to use it on - but not at that price.

 

And those new sound effects are...the originals were never good, not for Miasma, but the new ones are just awful. High pitched and obnoxious, to be honest.

Edited by BlackCoMerc
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after Testing her a little:

 

Since reooling back is not possible because "hurr durr synergy is better than effectiveness"

 

1: Bring her health back to what it was before

2: make spores pop automatically

 

btw. are there any other frames that use bs kind of BS synergy? I think not

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This kit feels awful.  I went in to a survival, where I expected spreading Spore/Toxic + landing Miasma would flourish the most, and it felt totally lackluster.

 

It feels very reminiscent of Ember's old kit to me, where I felt/feel like I'm lacking too much in all stats that I feel the need to build them all simultaneously, and there's just not enough room for that.  Short ranged abilities, moderate damage, moderate duration, expensive to take advantage of what synergy there is, and not really tanky enough to be operating with a melee/DoT kit... and even after compensating for most of those weaknesses with mods, it still feels anemic on all fronts.

 

Like, it feels so much like old Ember's problems all over again it makes me wonder if the lessons that should have been learned from that kit have been entirely missed.

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I tried it quickly and it turned out pretty well.

 

One handed casts on 1# and 3# allows to keep the flow.

 

I am a bit desapointed about :

 

- molt not having the snow globe treatement (i'm not sure about this info)

- miasma not proccing any corrosive -> meh end-game scalling

 

It ends up being a straight buff to my support sarin build which I am looking forward to play more often.

 

The skin looks great btw.

Edited by vazerd68
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They made her powers work better together, but all of them are now hurt by lower duration.  So they made her more energy intensive, but made modding her for energy efficiency destroy her.  Its like they didn't even think it through. 

 

She went from a one trick pony to a crippled pony that burns energy like mad.

 

Miasma needs its corrosive proc back to start with.  And if they really want us to use her abilities in conjunction with each other, we need better efficiency mods(they have been actively destroying the usefulness of fleeting expertise) or her powers need to use less energy.  

 

 

To make it clear, you don't make a kit have synergy between abilities while wrecking the ability to mod for power efficiency. 

Edited by [DE]Danielle
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After a first impact, I'd say she needs a tweak on the energy aspect. Molt and Spore need to be casted multiple times, so energy will deplete quite fast.

 

Could a good start be to make Toxic Lash a toggable like Exalted Blade?  It would sure give her a relief on the energy compartment. 

 

EDIT: Toggable =/= Channeled, my bad.

Edited by Odadda
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I don't mind the nerf to miasma, we all knew that was coming.

 

But why nerf venom?  Sure the 'damage was increased,' (10 to 20), but it generates half as many starting spores and seems to only spread 1 spore to 3 enemies in range when a spore is burst instead of spreading them all over the place, so it's doing a TON less damage overall, and spreading viral procs way worse.  Spreading toxic procs as well is cute, but I'm not really sure that it makes up for it.  It's a shame too, because I was really excited by the idea of saryn being built around spreading spores everywhere to power up and improve her other abilities- but with the tiny amount of them it feels like a huge hassle to do it.  It feels a lot more unpleasant and tedious than it should.

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Yeah, my friend and I have been testing it in the Void and Simulacrum, and the theme song of this new rework is the "Out of Energy" buzzer. Basically, you'll have to stack R3 Fleeting and maxed Streamline, pile on Constitution and Primed Continuity just to keep Duration above water (since Transient Fortitude is pretty much a necessity), or else have a very active Trinity sugar mama.

 

She's also slow and doesn't have much genuine survivability versus high-level enemies either (high-level enemies being the ones you want Viral procs on the most), regardless of blocking, which is a real problem for a now seemingly melee-centric frame. Get those Life Strikes out, because you're gonna need them.

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This kit feels awful.  I went in to a survival, where I expected spreading Spore/Toxic + landing Miasma would flourish the most, and it felt totally lackluster.

 

It feels very reminiscent of Ember's old kit to me, where I felt/feel like I'm lacking too much in all stats that I feel the need to build them all simultaneously, and there's just not enough room for that.  Short ranged abilities, moderate damage, moderate duration, expensive to take advantage of what synergy there is, and not really tanky enough to be operating with a melee/DoT kit... and even after compensating for most of those weaknesses with mods, it still feels anemic on all fronts.

 

Like, it feels so much like old Ember's problems all over again it makes me wonder if the lessons that should have been learned from that kit have been entirely missed.

 

I have to agree with this, Saryn now feels like old ember problems that we used to have, too much of everything for a whole lot of nothing basically and that ruined ember's gameplay for me till they fixed her a bit.

 

At this point Saryn's rework makes Mesa's rework look OP, at least I guess Mesa is still useful even after her rework.

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I have the feeling more health will be applied to saryn prime.

 

"oh you guys feel sad about saryn's hp, then check this out this shiny saryn prime in this new shiny prime access, this one has more health"

 

As for the warframe abilities, she seems more unique now and the weapon strategies can certainly help make her abilities deal more damage.

If a warframe feels more unique then i can't complain.

 

I am also a non saryn user, so the skin and the new changes to her mean nothing to me as she wasn't unique enough for me to make her.

Will think on a few strategies to see if she is worth doing.

Edited by KIREEKPSO
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As a Tenno who didn't like Saryn very much back then, I'm really appreciating this rework! I love how Spores work, how the Molt plays along with the former, the Toxic Lash exploding them and dealing Toxic procs, and the new options with Miasma. So much room for tactics!!! Love it DE! Keep up the good work.

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Good and bad in one go.

 

Good:

*** Molt+Spore comboing is very nice! That's good synergy.

*** Miasma getting boosted by her other debuffs is good, but it is too reliant on the debuffs to do any damage, imo.

*** More armor and energy is nice.

*** Onehanded casting of Spore and Toxic Lash is very nice.

 

Bad:

*** Toxic spreading effect is ok, but it pidgeonholes your weaponchoices dramatically. Very bad for variety and modding. Should've just been a simple Toxic Lash's proc and Spore combo, nothing else.

*** Miasma's damage benefitting from positive duration (finally) is great... BUT, that it increases the duration of the ability is near pointless in this fastpaced game. It should increase the number of ticks in the same set timeframe (say, over 4 seconds, power duration affecting the number of ticks during those 4 seconds). Then it would feel more satisfying to actually combo: Toxic Lash a dude, Spore him, spread it, Miasmanuke them. That's synergistic and rewarding with nice and quick damage. Right now it is ONLY synergistic with a far too drawn-out reward.

*** Toxic Lash BLOCKING bonus is insanely gimmicky for a survival bonus. So now she not only needs to have a melee, she has to have it equipped too? I mean, it's not a bad bouns, but it is so insanely pidgeonholing. Give Toxic Lash another rename, give it toxic damage bonus to ALL her weapons (but only a little bit for your primary and secondary so melee is still the most rewarded), give it tiny lifesteal based on the toxic damage dealt (further rewarding the melee boost) and give her a completely passive damagereduction or something, then it MIGHT be a decent ability.

*** Less health is ... just why?

*** Still no brief invisibility for Saryn when casting Molt so it synergizes a lot more with her closerange kit? She's plantbased, no? So camoflague would fit.

*** Her first 3 abilities are not truly worth the energycosts. 25 energy for each of them would be ok... maybe.

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No one played her more often than me, her 4º skill was the only thing that could make some damage/stun in mobs, and now... its gone, Thanks for ruining a thing that was already dead, and now making her useless... Forever.... Congratz

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Suggestions:

 

-Spores need to be a Cone or AoE cast; one target is useless

 

-Spores need to spread with every tic

 

-Her 3 needs to apply to ranged weapons as well as melee. If I want to make things dead up close, I have three other frames, any of which does the job FAR, FAR better than Saryn (even Atlas) and a fourth who has a 50% chance of freezing anyone who touches him.

 

-NONE of her abilities should cost more than 50 damage as a base cost. If you're going to force "Synergy" (aka, remarkable levels of inefficiency) then at least lower energy costs. Otherwise, Make Miasma useful on its own once more.

 

-Give Miasma back Corrosive. IF you do all of the above, you can even have Miasm deal Toxic damage, and only deal corrosive to enemies who were already toxic. But ONLY if Spores cast as AoE or Cone and spread more often and more easily. And pop on their own.

 

-Also, no more damage over time. Yours is a horde mode game. Waiting for enemies to die means I may as well bring a frame that does not depend on killing them in a blink, like Nyx, instead.

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time for Baro to bring the Primed Streamline i guess

Yeah, DE has clearly been working towards destroying the usefulness of efficiency mods, its time they stop.  Especially because it looks like they want to have more synergy between abilities. 

 

 

No one played her more often than me, her 4º skill was the only thing that could make some damage/stun in mobs, and now... its gone, Thanks for ruining a thing that was already dead, and now making her useless... Forever.... Congratz

 

Yeah, they completely neutered Miasma.   It was useful before BECAUSE you could still to the same amount of damage but have it happen in less time.  Long damage of time abilities DO NOT fit this game, especially because they removed the status proc from miasma.

 

 

This rework needs to be trashed and DE needs to start over. 

Edited by ClockworkSpectre
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    • Saryn’s base Armor is now 175.
    • Saryn’s base Health is now 125.

 

That's a decrease in effective health.

 

 

  • Miasma Revisions
    • Increase base damage overall.

 

You actually decreased it from 375 to 350.

 

Overall this feels like a massive nerf. I spend more energy to do less damage over a much longer period of time while being less tanky.

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Originally, my only complaint wiith saryn was the fact that the molt augment didn't scale with duration. Now i'm kinda pissed all around. After playing her for a bit,  I've officially put my saryn in the no use tier due to her survivability getting nerfed. I thought it wouldn't matter as much as it did, as I was one of those weird people who ran regenerative molt with a lower duration (50-80%). I thought 20 health going to armor would be bearable, but my fun was ended when testing my 1 forma'd saryn (I've only forma'd 4 frames if that attests to how much I enjoyed her pre-rework) on Ceres and being handed my bloody remains. On-paper nerfs ended up taking me down from 1073 health to a little over 870 health, which is generally the difference between life and death if you want to run a rage build. Furthermore, I'm incredibly pissed that all the work was put into making miasma spamming less of a thing. F*** MIASMA! miasma wasn't that fun of a move to begin with (screen nukes are boring) but now it's just tedious to use as straight damage. Why not have more synergy with the other abilities? Maybe extra damage if there are toxin or viral procs already existing as with miasma, but on something like molt's blast, or on contaigon? even extra DoT with toxin procs on her venom be welcome! I'm done, i'll shut up after one more thing. Please don't just fix these problems with saryn prime, I was incredibly excited to find that saryn was the next prime, and was even thinking about shelling out the cash to get her first day(which i never even consider), but it seems like you wanted to try to force the hands of those who wanted her to be able to be a high-health regenerative monster.  that stat change alone somewhat ruined saryn for me, as i can't play her as that big health tank anymore due to it being such... average in terms of health. if nothing else, please just reverse the armor/health change. Thx

Edited by NKDG
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Yours is a horde mode game.

 

DE seem to be in deep denial about this. In fairness, AoE DoTs and viral/toxin procs will at the very least soften enemies up for the rest of the squad, but I'm pretty sure Nova and Banshee do that much more effectively without any fiddly melee-range hijinks.

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Ok, time for a real feedback here. 

 

Trading that health for armor was not necessary, but the energy buff is godsent.

 

Spore: good, but slightly bugged. Toxic lash does not always trigger the spore explosion from what I saw, unless it's intended only to proc when other enemies are nearby (a single boiler with spores, hit by toxic lash, only got poison status).

 

Molt: was good from the beginning actually, casting spore to it really does the trick. Works wonderfully with regenerative molt (run, spore, calmly heal while enemies get viral procs). Casting miasma close to it makes it explode, thus diffusing every kind of nasty status.

 

Toxic lash: something's off. It says 1.56 multiplier with 185% power strength, when it should be 2.4 or something. It's acting like it's a +30% damage buff, and considering it was +75% before, I'm quite sure it's a bug. Poison procs work fine from what I've seen.

 

Miasma: this one I did not like. I don't know the current damage script, but with positive duration still does little damage without poison and viral procs active. In tight situations is difficult to have them both on large groups of enemies, and even 150 base energy is barely enough to spread statuses (non considering the ones that teammates and weapons can give, just powers) and then casting a miasma. Considering the importance of duration now, fleeting expertise is kinda ill advised, and with only a non primed streamline to use, using this ability is too expensive energy-wise to be worth, if you ask me. I think this one can be improved a bit.

 

That's it. Just fix toxic lash if it's not doing what it's supposed to do and do something for miasma, right now I don't feel it's worth it.

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Her health reduction is more of a bad mojo, in my opinion.

 

Considering a character whose kit is built around status duration is supposed to survive such a problem if the same problem happens to her.

 

The Toxin is a common place for Health damage and the reduction of HP is simply redundant that puts Saryn to less punishment in taking such damage for passing out.

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