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Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.


[DE]Rebecca
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I've been using saryn a bit since this rework and I can clearly say you don't see the potential. I had a group of the ancient death squad from loka show up on T4 and I only had enough for 2 abilities. So I tagged one with spore and used contagion and just dived into the group. Turns out there is humongous synergy now. Every strike re spread spores between all other enemies essentially creating a loop that and the toxin procs were spread so I was doing high damage to them. It was incredibly satisfying.

 

Edit: also with a rage/regenerating molt, she can have high reserves in her energy while maintaining her health. A wondrous combo.

 

And before the rework you could have dived right in there, too. Except...you wouldnt have needed to waste energy on other, largely underpowered abilities first. 

 

She is underpowered and unreliable in the extreme. The synergy feels forced and fake. Excalibur and Loki have Synergy. Even Mesa has some synergy in protecting herself while shooting. 

 

This isnt Synergy. This is DE TRYING to nerf the Nuke frame. 

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Tried it out. 

 

The numbers just aren't there in her kit anymore.

 

Even if you go through the unbelievable hassle of applying toxin and viral to enemies, Miasma is hitting like a limp noodle compared to how it was before.  Granted, putting out 11k+ corrosive damage almost instantly in a huge AoE with no setup, like Saryn used to do, was too strong. 

 

 

But, even after going through all the trouble of comboing every single ability, you STILL do less damage than before?  And not like, a little less.  I'm talking like less than 10% of the damage as before...  And you need to build duration now too.

 

This is a nerf of epic proportions.  Max rank spores doing 60 damage per cast base lol.  This is laughable compared to, say, Ember's fireball WHICH IS ALREADY BAD. Sure, the spores last a while... but who wants to wait 10 seconds to do their damage?  If basic enemies are taking me 10 seconds to kill even after using abilities on them, something has gone terribly wrong. 

 

I think the best comparison here is to Ember.  Saryn and Ember are kinda similar in that they are frames themed around a damage type.  Ember is fire, Saryn is poison and viral.  They are also both frames that have a serious claim to needing every stat: efficiency, duration, strength, and range.  Saryn used to be able to dump duration - but with this no longer the case she now has very similar build constraints to Ember. 

 

 

Compare new Miasma to World on Fire.

 

Miasma base 350 damage a second now.  Base 3 seconds duration. 

 

World on Fire does 400 base and procs more than once a second.  2 to 4.5 if the wiki is to be believed.  Now, each tick doesn't hit every enemy in range like MIasma does - but if enemies are stacked as they usuablly are, World on Fire is going to putting out a LOT more base damage than Miasma.

 

Same range.

 

Then we come to the multipliers in Ember and Saryn's kits.  If Saryn manages to get viral and toxin on enemies, she can get 200% bonus damage on Miasma (by the way, how exactly do the bonuses interact?  I assume they stack, but is it additive or multiplicative?).  Accelerant BLOWS THIS BONUS OUT OF THE WATER.  Accelerant has a BASE fire damage bonus of 250%, and can EASILY get above 500% with some power strength.  By the way, the power strength improves your World on Fire damage too, which gets further multiplied by the buffed accelerant damage.  THAT'S the kinda synergy we want DE!  Not a piddly, apparently flat 100% damage buff that can't be improved.  Accelerant also has even more range than WoF and CCs.  

 

But anyway, to conclude, Miasma and World on Fire look pretty comparable in the raw numbers department, with some subtle but meaningful advantages favoring World on Fire.  In particular, World on Fire's explosion rate really ups the damage against small numbers of enemies.  But overall, the two base abilities, with absolutely no mods, are pretty equal.  Right up until you realize that Saryn has to apply two separate debuffs, to every @(*()$ enemy to do less than Accelerant does as its base.  And then you realize that Accelerant's damage buff MULTIPLIES with power strength.  Does Saryn's?  Not that I can tell.

 

And then we come to the elephant in the room: Ember can keep World on Fire up FOREVER while running around and doing all her other business.  Miasma has to be recast constantly.  G G.

 

Prepatch, the question you asked yourself when deciding whether to take Ember or Saryn for your horde killing needs was, "Do I want the mobility and sustained CC of Ember, or the raw damage of Saryn?"

 

Now the question you have to be asking yourself is, "When Saryn does less damage than Ember against hordes, vastly vastly less against single targets, while not having the benefit of free mobility while using her ult, and requiring frankly ridiculous effort to get damage amplification that is a fraction of Ember's incredibly user-friendly 2... when do I ever want to use Saryn?"

 

RIP Saryn's viability.  Viva la 60 damage spores :/

Edited by Drinniol
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And before the rework you could have dived right in there, too. Except...you wouldnt have needed to waste energy on other, largely underpowered abilities first. 

 

She is underpowered and unreliable in the extreme. The synergy feels forced and fake. Excalibur and Loki have Synergy. Even Mesa has some synergy in protecting herself while shooting. 

 

This isnt Synergy. This is DE TRYING to nerf the Nuke frame. 

I fail to see what you are saying. All I did was spore and toxic lash and I did well because the two complimented each other very well by spreading.

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I know lots of people have posted this already, but reposting might help flag this as an issue instead of just 'liking' similar posts

Saryn is now far too dependent on basically every stat. 

You can't sacrifice strength or all of your damage just plummets, leaving you with basically nothing but the ability to spread viral procs

You can't sacrifice efficiency or your now-powerful abilities become too expensive, since you need to cast so much

You can't sacrifice range or almost all your abilities become preposterously useless, spores won't spread and you'll effectively have no AoE damage

You can't sacrifice duration because now literally everything benefits from duration.

I'd say buff the base range values and the base damage of everything she has, so tanking a little in those areas won't be as impacting, and keeping them at standard values is still ok. This would let you build for efficiency/duration, which are now much more essential than before. It also means that running higher strength or higher range becomes a more worthwhile sacrifice for the efficiency/duration you're losing, since better base strength/range would make those builds much more effective

 

quoted for truth

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My poor Saryn... nerfed to the mud and spat on by DE which followed blindly the troll complaints of the forums. A lot of you are to blame for this catastrophe, but they are also pretty stupid to follow the whining of the forums to a T.

 

Now she's pretty much worthless not exceeding at anything at all and downgraded in almost every aspect including the physical with the new skin (very Sarkeesian of them and very appropiate to relate this with toxins and poison).

 

It's back to another frame for everyone and quite honestly buying the skin now seems pointless for all of the above reasons.

This is a sad day for me. My favorite frame is done for. Time to look for a new one I guess... until DE nerfs that one too.

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More hp more survival with rage and regen molts

At what level?

 

First off duration builds will positively impact Regen molt builds. Secondly a difference of 600 effective HP is nothing at higher levels. Third, if you are getting hit hard enough to cut through your shields, health and full energy, having a regenerative molt active isn't going to save you.

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At what level?

 

First off duration builds will positively impact Regen molt builds. Secondly a difference of 600 effective HP is nothing at higher levels. Third, if you are getting hit hard enough to cut through your shields, health and full energy, having a regenerative molt active isn't going to save you.

I got past 1 hour in T4 alot i find it pretty easy unless i turn a corner with a group coming.

And duration doesn't fully positively impact regen i like to keep it 3.5 or 4.5 secs long.

Edited by SarahApple
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No point to Saryn anymore. DE made sure to properly destroy any viable option for her.

 

All we can do now is wait to see who they nerf to the gutter next and which of their favorites they bless with the 'everything' buff. Seriously, if they want us to play their favorite frames they should just remove everyone else and stop toying with us like this.

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And were you facetanking the whole time or evading fire?

half and half if i have full hp and believe i can face tank i will but if i get into trouble i used miasma,molt and run to heal if big groups come i stay in one spot stand inside my molt and it will take damage while i kill them.

 

But now miasma has no stun so now i have to hide all the time like the not tank i am now.

Edited by SarahApple
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3/4 health is pretty good for a first.

 

Unless you also have access to Atlas, who one shots level 30 - 40 Grineer with his first. Or Oberon, whose first ALWAYS knocks targets down. Or Excalibur, who kills multiple enemies in a single cast of his first.

 

Not all frames need to be equal; I do get that. But this first, compared to recent firsts and/or reworks, is actually pretty weak. Especially since it neither bursts nor spreads reliably enough to fuel the now insufficient Miasma.

If you target the spots good enough you could potentially target enemies a whole crowd and even people a level above/below with maxed Stretched with one cast. Atlas and Excal have to cast their abilities multiple of times to have the same effect. Have you tried using her 1st on infested with multiple enemies? It spreads reliably enough. It just needs to have better ways to spread as trying to hit the spots is somewhat difficult when you're trying to hit that many enemies that move too fast for you to hit that spot.

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half and half if i have full hp and believe i can face tank i will but if i get into trouble i used miasma,molt and run to heal if big groups come i stay in one spot stand inside my molt and it will take damage while i kill them.

 

But now miasma has no stun so now i have to hide all the time like the not tank i am now.

Sorry, missed the last part. Anyways, if you were going an hour plus with Saryn you would not have been tanking and her effective health difference of 600 with maxed mods wouldn't matter. So yah, you will have to adjust your playstyle and your modding load out, but it isn't the end of the world. She can still output high damage over a pretty long range. It just isn't the no brainer of run into a room, press 4 and run out. Her powers aren't worse. They are just different and at this point still subject to balance changes.

Edited by xRufus7x
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Her changes look complicated and I think we will have a true idea of how well she works now once people have done a lot of testing. 

 

 

That said, I'm not sure why they lowered her effective HP. I don't think someone calculated that right, because I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be an overall buff. 

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