Deluxe Skins And Gender Skins

[Morec0]

Alright... I hate to open this can of worms because it doesn't matter to be one way or another how it goes, but... well, I do feel recent additions and whatnot have really warranted another look at this.

 

We have all heard DE's stance on it before, that they don't want to make gender skins because it would ultimately amount to a new kind of Warframe. They don't want to put that kind of work into a skin when they could just as easily make a brand new Warframe out of the design.

 

Well... what are these?

 

 

 

And, yes, I KNOW that these skins were fan-made, conscripted by DE to do the conceptual work... Well, so were these (fan-made): 

(sorry, couldn't find the source thread - Silly-looking in hindsight as they are)

 

And even IF the concept art was done by fans, the modeling work was STILL DE's doing. 

 

Now, personally I think there's lore reasons behind why Warframes have certain genders - be it that there really IS only one Tenno within each of the Warframes or Orokin attempts to dehumanize their creations or that simply is how the Warframes have to be made to achieve those certain abilities - but if that IS the case then DE ought to really just say that (though, maybe that'll be touched on in the Second Dream for all we know).

 

At this moment, however, their original standing argument against alt-frame genders, AT LEAST as far as the regular Warframes go, has... well, fallen apart because of these Delux Skin. And don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Deluxe skins, but if DE wants to continue with the no-alt-gender route there MIGHT need to be a bit more look and talk about this as an option - at least until DE can tell again why they don't want to explore it.

 

Thoughts?

Edited November 5, 2015 by Morec0

[LOKIME]

I'm positive DE stated they'll do similar themed frames of the opposite gender BUT with different skill sets, which in my opinion it's better for us :)

[LilLemay]

I just don't think there's a point in them spending the time and resources on making alternate skins just so someone who ''doesn't like playing as girls'' can feel better about playing their frame. I mean, I get it, you want to immerse yourself, but I don't think all of you understand how much time these skins take.

 

The main reason I don't see this working is because, IF DE does do it, then after they give us alt gender skins, there are going to be people saying "We should have Alt-Gender Immortal skins! or Alt-Gender Premium skins!" which means even more time and resources putting into making the existing alternate skins fit onto the male variations, and at that point they may as well just make a whole new frame

 

Notice my comment Morec0 senpai

Edited November 5, 2015 by LilLemay

[aoguro]

i see that we get skins etc. and other "rework" as well as no new starchart before and with U 18, sentients was announced and all what i have seen was this glooming scanners beside a new underwatertileset which is one new conent per year as it look like

 

it would be nice DE keeps up the core-job on warframe: DEVELOPMENT OF REAL CONTENT !!!

 

im not watching too long how things are going since a time now ... ,-)

[KarmicRex]

WHY THE NEED OF GENDER IN EVERYTHING

[Evanescent]

I think their specific genders give the frames personality. I'd rather have them stay like they are.

[OniDax]

I think their specific genders give the frames personality. I'd rather have them stay like they are.

 

Same.

[Morec0]

I'm positive DE stated they'll do similar themed frames of the opposite gender BUT with different skill sets, which in my opinion it's better for us :)

 

WHY THE NEED OF GENDER IN EVERYTHING

 

I agree with both of these points, and I certainly would find more frames with more powers, but as I pointed out: their original from-house statement as to why they wont doesn't hold up anymore. Orphid could very easily have been a brand new frame and none of us would be the wiser - and imagine the kind of powers we might have gotten from such a plat-themed look. 

 

All I'm saying, is that DE need to readdress the matter.

[worminthewood]

DE is doing a great job.

[(PSN)batman200087]

Agreed.

But hey, all the frames compliment each other/contrast each other.

Ex: Rhino and Valkyr. Angry people.

Ex: Excalibur and Mesa, Gun and Blade frames.

And so on.

[LilLemay]

"Rhino and Valkyr, angry people" 

 

oh my god

[Rhodan]

They are space ninjas. Fighting armies of cloned potato ogres and businessmen with buckets on their heads.

 

Gender is not important.

 

 

All I'm saying, is that DE need to readdress the matter.

 

FYI, there are a lot of things DE needs to readdress. Maybe after they fix the majority of issues people are having, they can finally give you that straight out ''no, we are not going to mess with warframe genders'' that you're waiting for. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Latravysas

[(PSN)batman200087]

Yup angry people.

[LilLemay]

@batman200087 can DE hire you to give frame descriptions now, "Tenno, this is Valkyr.. she's pretty angry" (end video)

[Morec0]

They are space ninjas. Fighting armies of cloned potato ogres and businessmen with buckets on their heads.

 

Gender is not important.

 

I agree. I'm talking about us more or less needing a better reason for there NOT to be this option since DE's initial sentiment against it - "would rather use designs to make brand new Warframes" - has been completely dashed by the Deluxe skins.

[arch111]

"Rhino and Valkyr, angry people"

oh my god

"Me SMASH! You RIP! ROAAARRR!"

[Morec0]

I just don't think there's a point in them spending the time and resources on making alternate skins just so someone who ''doesn't like playing as girls'' can feel better about playing their frame. I mean, I get it, you want to immerse yourself, but I don't think all of you understand how much time these skins take.

 

The main reason I don't see this working is because, IF DE does do it, then after they give us alt gender skins, there are going to be people saying "We should have Alt-Gender Immortal skins! or Alt-Gender Premium skins!" which means even more time and resources putting into making the existing alternate skins fit onto the male variations, and at that point they may as well just make a whole new frame

 

Notice my comment Morec0 senpai

 

And that IS a good point, people would push for these sort of things, but in a state of a game where you can have a Prime Ember and make her look exactly like regular Ember I'm not sure how much difference that would really make. I know people would do this sort of thing, but the answer of "we gave you gender-alt skins already, that's it" would be better than the currently-undermined stance of "we'd rather put those assets into use as new frames".

 

Perhaps I'm overthinking it or underthinking it, but I do think DE need to reassess their stance or hurry up with an in-universe reasoning.

[OniDax]

I agree. I'm talking about us more or less needing a better reason for there NOT to be this option since DE's initial sentiment against it - "would rather use designs to make brand new Warframes" - has been completely dashed by the Deluxe skins.

 

I think the burden is on you to prove why they need to spend the time to do this. Yeah, DE's stance made sense when Warframe had just started, and their dev team was smaller, so the stance doesn't hold up now, but you've got to show just why this is needed and what benefit it offers players. Because, right now, I see no reason to start doing this, or any benefit it will offer players.

[PsychedelicSnake]

I'm positive DE stated they'll do similar themed frames of the opposite gender BUT with different skill sets, which in my opinion it's better for us :)

Pretty much a separate frame entirely, just with a similar theme to build around.

[Morec0]

I think the burden is on you to prove why they need to spend the time to do this. Yeah, DE's stance made sense when Warframe had just started, and their dev team was smaller, so the stance doesn't hold up now, but you've got to show just why this is needed and what benefit it offers players. Because, right now, I see no reason to start doing this, or any benefit it will offer players.

 

What benefit does any skin offer to the players? A different visual interpretation and experience. Gender can be as much a part of that as different armor layout or a flower on the shoulder.

 

Like I said; I couldn't care LESS about this, in fact I PREFER the idea of it being gender-locked-on-a-frame-by-frame basis, it plays into interesting ideas about identity and what the Tenno may see themselves as, but, as far as their original opinion on "rather make new frames" goes... I'm repeating myself here, but you see my point?

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

I've been under the impression that the reason we don't get gender bent frames is because of the fact that we will instead be (maybe) getting frames with different abilities but under the same theme (fire, water, illusion, etc.) which will be of the alternate gender. Lore seems to be the driving factor behind their decision not to allow frames to gender swap.

I don't really see how these deluxe skins put a hole in that, to be honest. Just looks like a newly designed version to bring the frame into a new era.

[LilLemay]

^^^

 

kinda what Antoine said, skins don't really give a benefit, but there's no real huge business benefit to this that we know of, unless we could get an accurate reading of just how many players would buy and use the skins, there's no way for us to know if it's even worth it for DE to spend the time to do if only a small minority of the player base is going to use it. And the argument I see occasionally that they should just be offered for free is even more absurd because that's just DE spending money to get nothing in return

Edited November 5, 2015 by LilLemay

[Yrveth]

I think these so called deluxe skins are a way to give an overall more consistent look to the different generations of warframes because the designs are (IMO) getting fancier with time and eventually it may get to a point where old frames will look out of place next to newer ones. Alternative looks are a decent way to prevent this without having to actually redesign the frames. But where do gendered versions fit here?

 

From what I've seen on the forum, the demand for them seems to come from people who cannot accept being "forced" to play a character whose gender doesn't match theirs, or a character whose butt is not "nice enough" to look at or something like that and honestly I'd rather gendered versions are never added, just to spite such people.

 

Above all DE shouldn't have to justify anything. If alternative gendered versions don't fit their creative vision for the game, that should be a reason enough.

[Morec0]

I've been under the impression that the reason we don't get gender bent frames is because of the fact that we will instead be (maybe) getting frames with different abilities but under the same theme (fire, water, illusion, etc.) which will be of the alternate gender. Lore seems to be the driving factor behind their decision not to allow frames to gender swap. I don't really see how these deluxe skins put a hole in that, to be honest. Just looks like a newly designed version to bring the frame into a new era.

 

 

Pretty much a separate frame entirely, just with a similar theme to build around.

 

And as I tried to say but flubbed up in my first reply, I do prefer this idea as well - in fact my entire dream-frame concept is based around the idea of it being the male-counterpart of Ember's fire theme. I'd MUCH rather have this than gender swaps.

 

But these Deluxe frames, in my eyes, are very much SO unique in their particular design that they feel like a new frame entirely - violating DE's previous statement of reasoning, as I see it, and opening this back up to a proper debate UNTIL DE can further explain "why we wont", be it through lore reasoning or just... something else. Just a new official statement to wave in the faces of the people that want them would be nice.

 

 

^^^

 

kinda what Antoine said, skins don't really give a benefit, but there's no real huge business benefit to this that we know of, unless we could get an accurate reading of just how many players would buy and use the skins, there's no way for us to know if it's even worth it for DE to spend the time to do if only a small minority of the player base is going to use it. And the argument I see occasionally that they should just be offered for free is even more absurd because that's just DE spending money to get nothing in return

 

See my response to him.

 

And, yeah, the idea of htem being "free" is ludicrous and I'd never try to suggest that.

 

 

Above all DE shouldn't have to justify anything. If alternative gendered versions don't fit their creative vision for the game, that should be a reason enough.

 

Well, then that's their justification and they should say that, instead of giving us an answer of "we don't want to spend resources when we could make new frames" and then make things that could very well just be new frames.

 

But, don't mistake, me, I do agree with you. I just want to be able to have an on-the-record post because, well, if a choice is going to be changed in one direction then the reasoning for not making another choice ought be changed in another. I'm not going to harp against one side when valid logic kinda makes them out to have a decent point.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Morec0

[LavenderLaser]

I think the real issue is hitboxes and animations. Even these flashy new skins are essentially just retextures of the normal frame. The skeleton is the same, the hitbox is the same, the mesh is almost the same in terms of the overall shape of the frame, and the hitbox is the same. Changing the gender of a frame would likely require a new skeleton, new mocap and animations, a new mesh, and a new hitbox. Realistically, just adding breasts to a warframe like Rhino isn't a very convincing solution (inb4 "le drag queen Rhino"). Rhino still has a very masculine build and giant @(*()$ Batman Forever codpiece. If they wanted it to be a bit more convincing they would need to change Rhino's build a bit, maybe drop the codpiece, and that would require a new hitbox and animations and all manner of other resource and time-intensive things. Not to mention, everyone would use female Rhino because the slightly smaller hitbox would be advantageous.