Community Opinion On Devstre63's Shown Sniper Rework?

[TheGuyver]

As much as I like the new zoom levels, I hope they add an iron sight/no scope feature because that looks like it'll give me real tunnel vision and get my knocked flat on my &#! or worse.

[AcquisCommunitaire]

What snipers need is a damage/crit multiplier boost and a more reliable crit chance. Given the rate of fire and long reload speeds, anything otherwise would be a completely ineffective rework.

 

As for the proposals, the zoom function is useless. Seldom would the maps allow players to zoom at the maximum level, and the disadvantages are all the more apparent when more and more enemies appear.

 

Neither is the counter effective. When pretty much any other weapon would be able to kill enemies before a sniper could shoot a second time, a counter is effectively useless. This is especially so when you are faced with multiple enemies, even when you disregard nullies - it is immensely difficult to know which enemy you shot at when every other enemy looks the same.

 

What is particularly worrying is the multishot rework coming up. With a 'counter' system and the ammo pool of snipers effectively halved, snipers will be rendered the weakest and most costly weapon in the game. The high zoom encourages players to shoot from far away (the traditional purpose of snipers), encourages shooting multiple times at the same enemy (counters), whilst the multishot rework halves the ammo pool. The result is that players will not be able to pick up ammo from enemies far away, nor will a sniper truly be a sniper when the player has the hunt for ammo after every 10 shots or so.

 

The suggested rework of snipers is utterly disappointing.

[Pendragon1951]

It's neat, but what snipers need more than anything are missions and maps where sniping is a viable strategy.

I think this is the main problem, defense, interception, survival, capture etc none of these missions are conducive to sniper play because while a sniper is bringing down one target, maybe two, the rest of the team has already killed multiple enemies, if not the target the sniper was planning to shoot. What DE needs to do is they have to create a mission and tileset especially for Sniper play. No matter how cool they make the UI and zoom or how powerful they make the sniper rifle, it will always be a impractical weapon to use in the current set up of Warframe. 

[BDubs98]

With the short engagement ranges present in the game high zoom is already undesirable.

This

[Magnulast]

I wouldn't say it would be overpowered, it seems fine, who wants to scope three times to get a high damage kill, the only issue I see here, is the bosses, except the ones like HEK.

[Oriviagene]

They need to buff it so that snipers/bow able to hit nullifier through their globes

[Burnthesteak87]

Also it´s saryn 2.0 all over again.

 

Community has very clear and good feedback on what they think are the problems - De´s acting like they don´t even read the feedback and adding something totally weird.

 

The problem here is in my opinion that it´s never communicated what DE thinks are the problems and why they´re adding X change. You can´t really grasp their thought process.

To be honest Saryn 2.0 is wonderful and Community Feedback is 60% trash/kneejerk/biased, 30% obvious things, 10% genius.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Brokenrune]

Why not give snipers, infinte punch through, for enemies, and a 10m punch through for objects? That way snipers have a way of dealing massive damage to crowds. Snipers also need reliable crits that can award skillful game play, like 100% crit chance on head shots. The sniper scope thing is nice, but I am worried that it will be too cluncky for the console people. Why not just make the combo system, give crit-chance, and damage? Only the thing isn't time based, but when a sniper misses a shot?

[VoidNomade]

To be honest Saryn 2.0 is wonderful and Community Feedback is 60% trash/kneejerk/biased, 30% obvious things, 10% genius.

 

molt endgame durability = duration buff

sniper punch through/nullifier/map problem = combo system

 

I hope it´s 100% more clear what i meant.

Edited November 15, 2015 by VoidNomade

[Lyupo]

The zoom function is nice I guess. I find the combo counter to be a little weird, but I'll take it. I feel that it would make more sense if a "combo" built up while you're scoped in, similar to a mod in pvp I think.

However, I don't think any of these changes really address the problems that snipers have in this game. They just aren't very effective against crowds, which is the main thing we fight.

Here are some of my ideas to improve their effectiveness/ utility.

If enemies are a certain distance away from you, shots fired have a chance to panic them.

In addition to guaranteed crits on headshots mentioned by some, hitting specific body parts give the target certain debuffs. For example, shooting them in the leg slows them down significantly. Shooting them in the face stuns them and lowers their accuracy. Shooting their weapon DESTROYS it, disarming them. Punch through could allow you to hit multiple points, rewarding accuracy and lining up shots.

What do you guys think?

[GhostLacuna]

The information so far is way lackluster and wont fix the problems with snipers at all. But we dont have the full picture yet so it will be interesting to see what it brings once it is released. 

 

The damage on snipers now are to unreliable to use much. The zooms is actually working against you on most maps and you have no way to deal with hordes. 

 

If snipers where to have reliable damage, zoom levels that made sense, much faster reloads and some way to deal with hordes for example aoe explosions when you score a head shot it could work. 

 

I highly doubt that DE will get it right one the first rework just as they have not gotten saryn right yet. 

 

Sure she is a good debuff frame if you go for max range now but it actually fixed none of her problems. 

[JesterTheNight]

Scopes should give you wallhax vision like the scanners and it should show weak spots like Banshee's sonar or Helios' augment mod.

[Ziegrif]

Why the bloody hell would I want to ever increase the zoom in a game where most of the enemies are in my face and I have to avoid tunnel vision? Other than times where I'm not going to be using the scope at all and just bringing it up for a second to get the dmg boost?

There aren't that many good sniping moments in the game anyway.

 

Sniping has been gimped from the start and will be gimped even after the rework because this is a horde game.

 

AOE > Single target dmg. Everytime.

 

Innate punch-through to all snipers will fix this problem or scaling them where they ignore enemy armor.

 

If it's gonna be slowshot single dmg it has to be AMAZING.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Ziegrif

[GreyEnneract]

Not sure about the counter, since melee's combo counter is awful.

Things missing: More damage after traveling farther, innate punchthrough (not just on Lanka), headshot multiplier solely for snipers, some sniper specific mods (more than one).

Also, nullifiers are still a problem.

[DxAdder]

The biggest Issue is that Sniper Weapons aren't High DPS in a game where DPS is everything.

 

Normally if I was to use a sniper rifle it would be from 200-300 Meters away in a perch taking out high value targets or other Snipers.

 

The pace and scale of Warframe just isn't made for these type of Weapons. At the rage we fight 75 meters or less people would use iron sightsor maybe 1x/2x Ret Dot to ensure you don't get tunnel vision. Sniper Rifle aren't even optimized for stealth play in this game, when a bow or the Optiocor can do more damage and are silent where does this leave them ?

 

And there is of course PvP , 0HK weapons that have no scope sway would dominate the PvP game.

Edited November 16, 2015 by DxAdder

[brucifer1]

I think it's a step n the right direction. As mentioned in the dev stream warframe is usually a very fast paced game and played with a different style. However they said that there could be a place for those who like the slower and more deliberate style of a sniper. It could be useful in a group dynamic, but relying on the sniper weapon while going solo will still be difficult, Snipers don't do well against swarms and you would need to rely on your abilities, and other weapons to deal with the mass number of mobs.

 

Still a healer like a Trinity or Oberon could hang back and provide long range tactical support between heals and be quite useful in a group.

[Darzk]

2) is implemented poorly. I would much, much rather see equivalent buffs at all levels of zoom, but they do something different.

 

For example, 1 being least zoom and 4 being most;

1: Increased fire rate

2: Increased damage

3: Increased crit chance

4: Increased headshot damage

 

and make that standard for all snipers (not different on different weapons).

 

For the combo counter, I'd really like to see it add punchthrough/RoF+Reload instead of damage, making the sniper more useful against crowds when you are firing rapidly (likely against crowds). Makes much more sense to me than adding damage, as with a sniper you're probably one-shot-killing lesser enemies regardless so the damage buff would be useless.

[Pendragon1951]

I think it's a step n the right direction. As mentioned in the dev stream warframe is usually a very fast paced game and played with a different style. However they said that there could be a place for those who like the slower and more deliberate style of a sniper. It could be useful in a group dynamic, but relying on the sniper weapon while going solo will still be difficult, Snipers don't do well against swarms and you would need to rely on your abilities, and other weapons to deal with the mass number of mobs.

 

Still a healer like a Trinity or Oberon could hang back and provide long range tactical support between heals and be quite useful in a group.

The thing is, using Excaliber as an example, having a warframe that can nuke the whole room makes using a Sniper rifle impractical to use in Warframe as it currently is. Any weapon or Warframe that can kill multiples just reinforces the idea of how impractical a sniper rifle is. As I said in a earlier post DE needs to create a mission and tile set specifically for the use of Sniper weapons, if not then no matter how powerful or cool they make sniper rifles will not solve the problem of being a impractical weapon to use in the current Warframe setup.

[Voidflow]

my 2cents:

 

I use Lanka as my main weapon regardless of mission type (19 % usage).

 

In my opinion current sniper rework is a nice try, but not really solving main problems of sniper rifles.

Zoom multiplicators makes things in my opinion over complicated, especially with multiple zooming stages. 

Getting bonuses by zooming more in, is the opposite what sniper rework actually needs, this concept creates more tunnel

view by making sniper rifles on pair with other primaries damage wise ... not really a right direction for a sniper rework.

I think anyway the showcase of current build by DE was intended in order to get feedback from the community ...

 

So in my opinion most important problems with sniper rifles atm are: 

 

- inconsistency in damage, due to multi shot (90%) and low critical chance ~ 25 %

- long reload times > Snipetron & Vulkar (Lanka, Snipetron Vandal are good in that regard)

- small magazines > Snipetron (+VL), Vulkar

- no punch through on Vectis and Vulkar 

 

Damage consistency need to be drastically improved, which is fundamental on low fire rate rifles. (< a basis for rework)

This means high enough critical chance to guarantee 100% critical hit, or just as a feature see Opticor.

 

A simple weak point indicator in scope would be enough, increasing damage by factor 1,5-2x as example. 

Scanner like X-Ray view would add more to sniper mechanic (punch through would be required > Vulkar, Vectis) 

 

Combo counters at consecutive shoots would be nice to have for faster reload

 

I think that would change a lot and create lot of fun playing sniper rifles.

 

EDIT: I forgot Nullifiers shield ...

would be nice if snipers could do something here 

Edited November 16, 2015 by Voidflow

[VoidNomade]

Also, nullifiers are still a problem.

 

I wish there would be one day a really big QA with only Scott so we could look behind the scenes and the reasons on why the situation is like it is.

[GideonG]

Would make it a lot better if snipers could shoot through walls to other rooms. It would make having multiple zoom levels useful, and allow them to pick off enemies safely from greater distance.

 

It would be an interesting mechanic at the very least, to set them apart from Bows/Opticor.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

Skill based improvements gets my like x9000

[Pendragon1951]

I'm still of the opinion that the problem does not lie in how much damage a sniper rifle can do, for me that is not the issue, the issue is the impracticality of using a sniper rifle in any mission save for maybe exterminate or even capture. To solve the problem of sniper weapons is simply creating a venue solely for them, a new tile set and mission type. The mechanics are not broken it's where sniper weapons can be used that's broken.   

[VoidNomade]

I'm still of the opinion that the problem does not lie in how much damage a sniper rifle can do, for me that is not the issue, the issue is the impracticality of using a sniper rifle in any mission save for maybe exterminate or even capture. To solve the problem of sniper weapons is simply creating a venue solely for them, a new tile set and mission type. The mechanics are not broken it's where sniper weapons can be used that's broken.   

 

They would have a use if the game would be designed for very strong enemies with weak points and snipers having a bonus vs them.

 

But you´re correct, mass destruction > finesse attacks

[Pendragon1951]

Has anyone ever seen the movie Enemy at the gates, it's about the sniper war between the germans and russians? If we had a venue like that then sniper guns would then be fun to use. Imagine being assigned a mission to kill a sniper that has been taking a toll on supply missions or communications. Having to outthink the other sniper as well as not being killed by that same sniper, now that would be exciting sniper play.