Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Djolltax

Ember Prime Nerf Please. Specifically, World On Fire.

Recommended Posts

And yet there is so much content there, alerts, events, keys, resources etc. If the game shouldn't be balanced around that sort of level, then surely all the rewards should come from later levels right?

 

Coz screw newbs amirite.

 

The best rewards often come from more difficult content, but many rewards are spread through out the entire range of levels so that newbies like yourself have an opportunity to obtain some of those good rewards. But of course veteran players can faceroll that content. If you don't like that, then form your own private squad with players who are your power level, but don't come crying that you joined a random public game and the veteran players with all the maxed out mods got all the kills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The best rewards often come from more difficult content, but many rewards are spread through out the entire range of levels so that newbies like yourself have an opportunity to obtain some of those good rewards. But of course veteran players can faceroll that content. If you don't like that, then form your own private group with players who are your power level, but don't come crying that you joined a public game and the veteran players with all the maxed out mods got all the kills.

 

Shouldn't have to create private groups in order to enjoy the game. Ever. A game should not force you to avoid public matches for the sake of enjoyment, that shows that the game is flawed.

 

 so that newbies like yourself 

 

Don't be petty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sick and tired of logging on to games expecting to have fun, and instead being greeted by 1 or 2 Ember 'speedrunners'. You know the ones I mean. They activate World on Fire and run across the map, insta-killing anything that comes within 50 metres of them, without actually putting any effort or skill into it. It's not fair on the rest of us. Now Ember is the 'go to press 4 to win' frame for Draco and such, what with the Mesa and Saryn reworks. I'm hoping you can rework Ember's 4th to better suit her concept, as you did with Saryn. Now I have no choice but to recommend the following procedures:

 

1. Significantly lower the damage done by World on Fire. Similar to Saryn's 4th, the damage on this is just off the scale, and totally unfair.

 

2. Significantly decrease the range of World on Fire. I've seen full range builds reach across maps with the right mods.

 

3. Make airborne targets able to avoid World on Fire (ospreys and such). This would help to prevent speedrunning extermination missions.

 

4 (Only a recommendation). Decrease Ember's speed when using World on Fire. This will really help with preventing speedrunning too.

 

5 (Positive!). Add a semi-powerful and instant fire proc to anyone caught in World on Fire. I'm not going to plan a total nerfing. I think a guaranteed fire proc would fit in well here.

 

Any questions, recommendations, or opinions? Put them all in the comments below, and happy hunting Tenno.

 

[EDIT]

 

Not necessarily lower damage overall. Just better scaling, so much less damage on lower level missions.

 

Also, a bigger energy drain.

There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to start.

The dmg of world on fire is only 50 dmg per tick higher than miasma but miasma has built in multipliers. WoF only deals 400 dmg per tick affecting a max of 5 enemies on cast and 4 per sec after that. So if you remain near 4 enemies that's 400 dmg per sec to each. That is not that much dmg. If the dmg were lowered and given a higher status chance there would be no reason to ever cast the ability. Fire ring already gives a 100% fire proc and low dmg.

No other frames deals less dmg just bc it's a lower level mission adding such a restriction to ember would be ridiculous.

Furthermore any other nuke that doesn't deal it's dmg over time (Avalanche, crush, overload, blade Storm, radial javelin, ect.) will deal far more dmg in a much smaller window of time.

The range of WoF is 15m the same as almost all other ults. If they have more range they're sacrificing a lot of dmg to get it and therefore is balanced.

The energy drain is fine where it is. It's fairly low dmg over time and increasing that dmg with either transient fortitude or blind rage will heavily affect energy drain already since it's a toggle.

In a game where movement is you're first and most powerful defense, where movement equals life, having an ability that reduces that while not giving crap for dmg and having low range as you suggested would be the worst possible thing I could imagine.

While yes she is very strong as speed clearing low level maps that's not bc she deals insane dmg. It's bc the mechanics of her ult are smart and "seek" enemies so in essence it doesn't waste dmg.

You're complaining about an ember stealing all your kills in some low level mission but any dmg frame can obliterate hoards in the normal star chart with no problems at all. Hell I could do that with a nyx spamming psychic bolts, one of the worst abilities in the game on a completely non dmg oriented frame. If you don't want people stealing your kills bc they're faster than you then set your game to solo.

After a long time of being obsolete ember is finally in a good place and with fire quake can actually scale very high relying on lots of cc and I don't want to see that ruined.

Overall what you suggested would quickly turn ember into the absolute worst frame in the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shouldn't have to create private groups in order to enjoy the game. Ever. A game should not force you to avoid public matches for the sake of enjoyment, that shows that the game is flawed.

 

 

Don't be petty.

 

The only thing flawed is your thinking that a MR1 and MR21 should be on on equal footing, it doesn't work that way.This is not a FPS shooter where everyone has the same gear when the spawn in. There is a vast power difference between new and veteran players. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing flawed is your thinking that a MR1 and MR21 are going to be on equal footing, it doesn't work that way.

 

Not what I said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Go play solo then. When there's an option already present that means you don't have to play with these people any requests to alter the way /they/ play is just "boohoo have fun the same way I do". Plenty of people are bored with low level missions but run them on alerts or invasions for the rewards, the fact is it used to be Saryn, then they ruined her, now it's Ember. And if they ruin Ember it'll be Oberon, or Mag, or anyone else, or a different weapon. You can't stop that way of approaching unchallenging content for veteran players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MR 20 Ember speed runner here. Yes i bring ember to exterminate missions, and yes i will kill 80% of the map alone. You say its unfair? I say I'm being efficient and you shouldn't complain about being carried. One of the main things i use my 4 forma'd, 3 r10 mod, augmented ember ( she doesn't come out the box op) for is doing the invasion alerts. I wan't to go in, get it done and move on. If i carry you through the mission 3 times in the time it would take you to complete it once why are you mad?

 

Now in terms of damaging things Yes she will dunk t1 and t2 void exterminate as well as most the star chart. Now t3, 4 you now have to start spamming 2 ability as well to kill bigger units which takes a bit more time. Ember doesn't always kill things in one tick of WoF on an enemy. What happens is they get knocked down and 5,6 ticks will kill that enemy it just happens quickly. Also Ember is super squishy i run around with like a little over 300 shield 300 hp, if world on fire augment wasn't knocking things down I'd die almost instantly. BTW if you nerf ember into the ground next in line for draco would be Equinox, Ash, Frost (avalanche), also radial jav Excal still works if you bullet jump up on the corner of where the elevator takes you up.

 

Sometimes if I'm doing void I'll even ask something like "Yo if you want me to stop playing  ember i can swap" and 80% of the time the group doesn't care, and will bring things to help me carry them faster. For instance rhino roar, volt speed, ect. You may not like it but some like myself do. Live with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not what I said.

 

That is pretty much what you are saying. You are saying that a high ranked player shouldn't be able to come in to a low level mission and one-shot kill everything because it takes away from the enjoyment of the low level player. And I'm saying that is a completely unrealistic expectation, of course the veteran player is going to be able to do that..

The best way to avoid that is form your own squad, but you say you shouldn't ever have to do that, which I disagree with. Public games are public, and will always have players of various power levels. If you don't like that, then DE has given you the option to form a private group. If you choose not to put forth the effort to make your own group, that is on you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I stopped reading at the part where you stamped your foot like a petulant child and screamed "It's not FAIR!!!"

 

I mean your arguments as many have pointed out are in fact flawed and incorrect anyway, but the "fair" stuff is just silly.

 

It's a PvE game, if your ego can't stand someone else being effective and having fun then you might want to re-evaluate playing this game.  Ultimately if it offends you that much, just stop playing with Ember's,

 

But no, WoF is not OP, it's not broken and we don't need it to be "nerfed".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not fair on the rest of us.

 

Play solo mode.

Speedrunners should play solo mode too, but judging by the scenario given, I can pretty much guess yu were running in an alert or an Invasions.

What's bad bout someone speed clearing an Invasion mission?

Not bad at all, I get to slack and still finish the mission.

 

 

The reason Saryn got a big fat change to Miasma was because Miasma was never initially designed to do damage "over 4 seconds" but to

"do damage per second, for 4 seconds" which resulted in the change to Miasma, and her kit to suit her new playstyle.

 

Ember has always been, and will probably always be, the low level trash killer and speedrunner she is strong with. 

 

 

Sorry buddy, but kills and damage dealt at the end of the mission doesn't yield different rewards, so no point crying kill steal in a game like Warframe.

 

 

 

Can't wait for OP to put out a post about how Simulor is overpowered at clearing maps too. What fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to say this on behalf of the entire warframe community.

 

No. Ember is underpowered, we don't need more nerfs to everything that exists. even to the underpowered things. stop complaining and get used to it. if you don't like ember, search specifically for lobbies without embers, that's what the recruiting chat is for.

 

I don't get why people are so nerf happy. it's ruining the game for alot of people, all because what? you don't like that ability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone who loved ember before the buff/vault status.
Ember is my to go for lazy farming mid size enemies. And i punch the ult only when there is need for it - i try not to ruin other people's fun just because I can. Sure we go for speed runs - bring couple of embers, one volt and one nyx for the joke. But as fast runs with ember work only to T3 towers, she is not OP, and she was never meant to be OP. Not to mention the famous issue of "getting a bullet in the head" that can not be fixed by any mods. Now if you are picking a bone with her just because she is easy to play and farm... You have so many bones to pick with so many frames, just because they are "The right tool for the right job".
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I run Ember and there are many times when other players have more kills than me. I use it when its necessary to keep my team alive and out of danger. I honestly don't understand why there is an extensive amount of hate towards Ember, like many people have said, if it's not Ember it will be another Frame. Each Frame is adept at something, Ember is all about offensive CC (and from witnessing it myself) not the best on higher level missions. but her shields and health are microscopic compared with other frames. 

 

I think the best bet for people who don't like Ember would be for you to form a clan/only do recruited missions without Ember/Run Solo. Because it is unfair to request Ember to be Nerfed without asking for almost all of the other Frames to be Nerfed in some way.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is pretty much what you are saying. You are saying that a high ranked player shouldn't be able to come in to a low level mission and one-shot kill everything because it takes away from the enjoyment of the low level player. And I'm saying that is a completely unrealistic expectation, of course the veteran player is going to be able to do that..

The best way to avoid that is form your own squad, but you say you shouldn't ever have to do that, which I disagree with. Public games are public, and will always have players of various power levels. If you don't like that, then DE has given you the option to form a private group. If you choose not to put forth the effort to make your own group, that is on you. 

 

Nope, I was responding to your point that the game shouldn't be balanced around low level and pointing out that there is a ton of content which is primarily low level. If the game shouldn't be balanced around this level at all then all those rewards are essentially free. Also bad game design.

 

I agree that MR21 should be more powerful than MR1's, I was hoping to lead the thread away from the hatred and onto something constructive, namely matchmaking based on MR so that Vets don't ruin matches for newbs, and having Alerts/Events scale up based on MR. This wouldn't nerf Ember, but would stop her from cheesing certain things.

 

But no, you argued.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really do hope you know how you modded the old ember and the new ember rework is perfect...I wonder have you ever play the old ember like a way the hell  back in the days before . Then you'll know there's no reason for her Wof to "nerf" You expected you wanna play this game fun, but some other players wanted to be more fast and efficient rather than being a slow poke and dragging in game. So now she's much more reliable and efficient on mid + level. Tell me why the hell you are crying about it and playing with others. If you really wanna enjoy playing w/o any random people go play solo so there's no "press 4 to win" player to interrupt your fun. Personally, what i think about you is that  you're  low MR player and playing with MR 20+ players and QQ about it of taking your joy away. And yes Im MR 20 and ember is my go to quick and easy frame . I want to get my mission done fast and efficient way and continue to do other mission . But on higher level mission Ember still need to start using her #2 for some Cc ,since she is consider a squishy frame.  

 

ps Dont be like this 

 

1feo03.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It sounds like you are saying you want to nerf a frames power just because it can kill weak things quickly and clear missions but you want to take your time to "enjoy" (which is purely arbitary depending on who you ask what fun is to them). Yet you don't want to have to create your own party? It sounds like you just want to change the game to your own liking and screw what anyone else thinks.

 

Speedrunning in any exterminate map on the star chart and tier void exterminate can be done by ANY frame whatsoever. In case you or anyone else didn't know, running quickly to the extract point on an exterminate map causes the enemies in the map to de-spawn and respawn to rooms near you as you run through the map. Take any frame you want, use parkour 2.0 to get to quickly get to the extract point and not kill a single enemy encountered along the way, and have them all spawn in a room or rooms near to the extract point. I can then use any frame with strong powers or any strong melee weapon and kill all the masses of them, no WoF needed.

 

I and probably others like me enjoy using Ember for those nice mid level invasion missions because it just streamlines the whole processs so we don't have to do spend much time searching for the straggling enemies when we actually hit the extract point. Doing the same mission three times in a row gets old especially if you want to go do other things, but still want to get a good reward at the end of the invasion. However, getting rid of frame powers that kill groups of enemies won't do a damn thing for you. Speedrunners can still just outrun the party to get to extract point to cause all the enemies to respawn close to them and kill them there. Next thing you know is we will be hearing from people like you to nerf all parkour movments so no one can run ahead... oh wait, that already happened with coptering.

 

My advice to you, like many others have said, do your own party if you want to avoid the speedrunners. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the fourth thread on this matter within two days. DE should buff Ember just because the people aren't able to use the search function.

Seriously, many people will just take the best frame they can get. If Ember is nerfed, another frame will be best, you will get sick of that frame also and the whining will start anew. Why don't you just play alone if you don't want other to use the frame they want?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or you could just accept that joining public games always carries the risk of getting stuck with someone speedrunning. This is true of any co-op game with public matchmaking. You don't get to call for ability-breaking changes just because of the off chance you join a low level public mission with a speedrunner.

 

WoF is just fine where it is. It's strong against low level enemies, decent against mid level enemies, and weak against high level enemies, to the point of being used purely for utility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, interesting. Just writing about this in another thread.

I am not opposed to reworking the power to be less passive, but the damage actually falls off fast. So, this largely a problem of Embers running through super low level enemies. Something you can say about most frames.

Not sure what to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And yet there is so much content there, alerts, events, keys, resources etc. If the game shouldn't be balanced around that sort of level, then surely all the rewards should come from later levels right?

Coz screw newbs amirite.

No at low level. The advnced players should and will wipe out enemies in hordes. Thats the way its meant to be. A brand new player should not be able to compete with some one who has 500+ hours played. This serves as a goal. "I want to be that powerful" the reason alerts and stuff are at lower levels is because it wqould b unfair if u put an event at draco because the lower lvl guys have no chance to get through the mission

This is the fourth thread on this matter within two days. DE should buff Ember just because the people aren't able to use the search function.

Seriously, many people will just take the best frame they can get. If Ember is nerfed, another frame will be best, you will get sick of that frame also and the whining will start anew. Why don't you just play alone if you don't want other to use the frame they want?

Well said

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No at low level. The advnced players should and will wipe out enemies in hordes. Thats the way its meant to be. A brand new player should not be able to compete with some one who has 500+ hours played. This serves as a goal. "I want to be that powerful" the reason alerts and stuff are at lower levels is because it wqould b unfair if u put an event at draco because the lower lvl guys have no chance to get through the mission

 

I agree that MR21 should be more powerful than MR1's, I was hoping to lead the thread away from the hatred and onto something constructive, namely matchmaking based on MR so that Vets don't ruin matches for newbs, and having Alerts/Events scale up based on MR. This wouldn't nerf Ember, but would stop her from cheesing certain things.

 

But no, you argued.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shouldn't have to create private groups in order to enjoy the game. Ever. A game should not force you to avoid public matches for the sake of enjoyment, that shows that the game is flawed.

 

I'd like to know what your suggestions are to resolve issues where one player or group of players doesn't like [insert anything from the game here], but others do.  If your solution to this problem is that "DE can tweak the ability to be somewhat more interactive without it being considered a nerf", wouldn't that presuppose that your viewpoints, and therefore your sense of enjoyment, are the "correct" ones?  What do you say to the person who disagrees with you on this or finds enjoyment out of something you believe should be nerfed or that you do not enjoy?  Who gets something they enjoyed removed and who gets something they hated removed?

 

Be careful with infinites and all-inclusives.  Your statement above means that you are against there ever being a need for a private group to enjoy the game -- no exceptions.  That implies that at any time when playing, all publics must be enjoyable to every player -- it implies that if anything anyone does is unenjoyable to any player, that the thing should be stopped/removed/controlled.

 

What if someone cannot get enjoyment without dictating what everyone else does for their enjoyment (there are control freaks in this game)?  What if someone demands no one use the Tonkor for their enjoyment and its your favorite weapon?  What if someone demands all players use Mag for their enjoyment?  Only melee?  Where do you draw the line and what is the rational explanation for why it is the correct place to draw the line?  Can you please expand and explain how your statement can remain valid while accounting for these scenarios?

 

We've seen the vocal minority destroy things which others enjoy.  There are players in this community that want to turn this game into Call of Warframe; should DE accommodate them and completely change the game so they can enjoy it?

 

Beyond my response to you, it does seem possible there is a connection between these outburts and the end-of-game stats -- this is not a fact, merely an observation.  I would hypothesize that these players are incapable of teamplay in general due to the demanding criteria which makes the game enjoyable to them; that these players' egos demand they are the best by all metrics, with kills being a key one for them to grab onto.  Again, this is an hypothesis, but if true would be a poor reason to drive changes as it is the polar opposite to a community driven game.

 

In my opinion, this all boils down to a simple thing: inconsiderate, self-centered thinking.  If people get beyond themselves and realize, "Hey, these people don't have the same likes as me, maybe I should start a group that enjoy the same playstyle I do instead of demanding everyone conform to the style I play, even when I'm not playing with them by imposing a change on all players."

 

This is the reality people often refuse to face: people have mutally exclusive likes and dislikes.  You cannot solve this for everyone (although games can be programmed to be flexible unlike reality -- i.e. enable coptering, disable coptering; no right or wrong, merely how a group chooses to play).  The larger a community, the greater liklihood of discontentment, because no one set of rules will make everyone happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a lot of talking about other stuff and not much about the actual merits and flaws of WoF.

Some of the suggestion I have heard are rebalances, not straight nerfs. There is a difference.

However, the damage does fall off and the augment becomes essential, pretty much addressing the issue right there.

However, a big complaint is how OP the power is on lower difficulty levels. This is not a Ember specific problem, but a Waeframe problem and does need some serious thought. It is one that doesn't get fixed by a straight nerf, but maybe by a rebalance, though that seems complicated and possibly the wrong approach. Access, maybe? I dunno, this requires more thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shouldn't have to create private groups in order to enjoy the game. Ever. A game should not force you to avoid public matches for the sake of enjoyment, that shows that the game is flawed.

 

No. It shows that different players enjoy different things. It is 100% impossible to create something that all players will enjoy in all situations. This is the precise reason why nearly all suggestions by players are ignored by game developers. Every single player has their own particular ideas about what's fun and how the game should work. The challenge developers face is trying to find a reasonable middleground. This obviously necessarily means that some players are going to end up in situations that they find unfavorable, which is why there's a very simple solution to such situations; simply leave the match and find a new one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.