Ash Is Op. Jat Kit Is Op. ...who Cares?

[Cyandana]

I've read a lot of complaints about:

 

Ash Prime (EHP too high for his mobility)

Jat Kitag (CC gimmick is guaranteed kill if it hits)

Glaive Prime (please)

Sancti Tigris / Tigris (One shots pretty much anything if both shots hit at close range)

amongst other things.

 

...Has no one ever heard of "self-ban" or "soft-ban" before? It's a simple concept, just follow these rules:

 

1) Don't use stuff on the OP list UNLESS:

2) Someone else cheeses you with it first. Once they do, feel free to cheese away.

 

This game does not have a real PvP/MMR ladder, there is no reason to go into a game wrecking undergeared/unknowledged players with overpowered weapons or frames, I for one would LOVE more new players to get into PvP so we could actually get things like Clan PvP or tournaments going; but from my observations in the past months new PvP players are very discouraged and completely alienated from trying to learn Warframe PvP because they can't even fight back versus all this OP S#&$ whilst also trying to get a handle on all the insane mobility.

 

If you are an experienced player please restrain yourself from going all outwith the OP stuff, I'd like to have more than 10 people in PvP a night - bring out the big guns for the people that deserve it.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[tinyranitar]

>inb4 someone didn't notice it's PvP and cry muh frame

 

Tbh Ash isn't that OP. He traded utility for high EHP. His 123 is kinda useless in PvP, not always you have your 4.

 

Jat Kittag is kinda unfair to melee to melee, but there is guns.

[Irorone]

Honestly PVP is....well not COMPLETELY unbalanced but lets be honest there's no way to truly "balance" a pvp multiplayer with as many actual classes and gear choices as warframe (even if you exclude the weapons that aren't in pvp yet).

[TriggerHappyWhiteGuy]

Well I am sure to get more players involved in PVP all you would have to do is guarantee a 3 or 5 pack of R5 cores at the end of the game and possibly increase PVP syndicate standing.

 

After more people are in the game there should be some sort of ranking system to prevent experienced from beating up on new players.

[RIOT]

Tbh Ash isn't that OP. He traded utility for high EHP. His 123 is kinda useless in PvP, not always you have your 4.

 

His 123 is kinda useless in PvP

 

His 1 is kinda useless in PvP

 

 

uhh pretty sure that ability is a game changer when used correctly in 1v1.

definitely NOT useless

Edited December 2, 2015 by RIOT

[Zerga-08]

>inb4 someone didn't notice it's PvP and cry muh frame

 

Tbh Ash isn't that OP. He traded utility for high EHP. His 123 is kinda useless in PvP, not always you have your 4.

 

Jat Kittag is kinda unfair to melee to melee, but there is guns.

Excuse me but he has high EPH, high movement, and 3 decent powers. He is quite OP actually.

 

At OP: Sorry, but soft-bans don't work with how PvP is now a days. Back in PvP 1.0 it worked for a few reasons. There were no rewards and the community was smaller there for most people knew each other and didn't want to piss each other off. This soft-ban won't work with what we have now because the player base is larger and there are now rewards (credits, cores, ect.). The PvP team should be doing balancing anyways and not relying on players to be kind to each other (this is the Warframe community we are talking about which is a pretty bad community IMHO).

[Phasedragon]

I don't think jat kittag is that OP, it targets a specific playstyle and can be countered by not groundhugging.

 

Ash p on the other hand is quite a bit unbalanced, and needs to be fixed. Regardless of his powers being debatably weak or not, his stats are well above others to the point that there's no reason for him to use powers anyway. Even when he does, they are still very decent powers, specifically his #1 is a great finisher if you end up having to reload or something, plus it can be spammed very quickly.

 

I just want to emphasize that he is not a frame for going "well I don't want to use powers so I'll choose a frame that gives me bonuses for that playstyle." For one, there are mods for that already; they give you more movement when you have full energy. The fact is that type of tradeoff does not work primarily because you don't always have powers, but ash P does always have his tankiness.

Edited December 2, 2015 by PhaseShifted

[motorfirebox]

The AOE on Jat is absolutely ridiculous. Like 90% of the reason I gave up on PvP after I got the Daikyu mod.

[JonBenj]

You can't expect players to tone down their loadouts, in accordance with the level of competition, great in theory.. but in Public matches anyway, another ruthless player will join and simply - within there rights - use their "Overpowered" gear.

 

But the gear only gets you so far, Its the implimentation of that gear which can make it all seem OP - this is why we need smarter Matchmaking.

 

In Conclaves 1.0 we had a Conclave rating system, where your mods and gear add up to number which allowed entrance into other Conclave maps.

 

But that was too basic and really didn't perform as intended.

 

My three loadouts, are based around 3 levels of survivability with minimal power usage - with Ash Prime being my go to, when the odds stack up and i need an edge, and on that note, I agree with Phaseshifted. He needs adjustment. But i always start with Regular Ash and see how the match progresses.

 

And then you have players who will dominate with any gear - so then your asking for them to play poorly on purpose; once again - Matchmaking.

[Nighttide77]

The reason why people ask for nerfs or make balance suggestions is because those individuals want the game to be fun and balanced.  They want to be able to enjoy using an explosive, shotgun, or melee that feels good to them because of the mechanics or aesthetics or whatever, but don't want to feel like they're being cheap.

 

Shoot, I enjoy fire and explosives, but I wouldn't condone the use of Silva Aegis until one of its stances is properly balanced.

 

For the most part, those that want to have fun and enjoy decent matches do not use imbalanced tactics, like Equinox's Sleep.

[Naftal]

I don't really feel bad playing with Ash as long as other cheesy things like hitscan weapons exist. Squishy frames are not balanced for the weapons in this game.

[Nazrethim]

Excuse me but he has high EPH, high movement, and 3 decent powers. He is quite OP actually.

 

 

I don't think jat kittag is that OP, it targets a specific playstyle and can be countered by not groundhugging.

 

Ash p on the other hand is quite a bit unbalanced, and needs to be fixed. Regardless of his powers being debatably weak or not, his stats are well above others to the point that there's no reason for him to use powers anyway. Even when he does, they are still very decent powers, specifically his #1 is a great finisher if you end up having to reload or something, plus it can be spammed very quickly.

 

I just want to emphasize that he is not a frame for going "well I don't want to use powers so I'll choose a frame that gives me bonuses for that playstyle." For one, there are mods for that already; they give you more movement when you have full energy. The fact is that type of tradeoff does not work primarily because you don't always have powers, but ash P does always have his tankiness.

 

Ash P isn't op, it has 1 decent ability (shuriken) and 2 situational at best, useless in general, abilities (Bladestorm and Smoke screen) and the most useless ability in the whole Conclave (Teleport). Having such a crappy ability set is justification for reasonable good stats. He doesn't have the mobility of "light" frames nor he is slow as a turtle, he has good EHP but not abilities to back that up (think Frost P). Ash P is in a good position right now because yes abilities are an important factor wheter you recognize it or not (I'm begining to think you are just in denial about the subject)

 

To the OP:

I'm against the kittag slamspam, but only the quickmelee one, I have no problem if I get knocked down by a kittag slam if the user has the hammer equiped. But combining quick knockdown with guns? that's a no-no on my book. Melee knockdowns should be reserved for melee combos and/or channeled attacks/slams and melee weapons should be just a last resort for gunplayers, not a cheap winnning card.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Nazrethim

[LascarCapable]

Thread cleaned.

 

If you guys could stay on topic and have a civil discussion, it would be really nice. Ad Hominem attacks are not constructive and really annoys everyone.

[Phasedragon]

Ash P isn't op, it has 1 decent ability (shuriken) and 2 situational at best, useless in general, abilities (Bladestorm and Smoke screen) and the most useless ability in the whole Conclave (Teleport). Having such a crappy ability set is justification for reasonable good stats. He doesn't have the mobility of "light" frames nor he is slow as a turtle, he has good EHP but not abilities to back that up (think Frost P). Ash P is in a good position right now because yes abilities are an important factor wheter you recognize it or not (I'm begining to think you are just in denial about the subject)

 

For one, he does not have reasonably good stats. Regardless of justification or not, he has exceptional stats. Again, regardless of whether or not his abilities suck, 50% of the time abilities aren't even practical, no matter what frame you use. That can be due to not having energy or not being the right time. While abilities aren't always practical, stats, especially exceptional stats, are a bonus 100% of the time. Even then, in high level play, trying to rely on abilities usually gets you killed or sacrifices time. In skilled 1v1's, it's unlikely to see more than 2 or 3 casts per match of abilities which aren't of the #1 damaging type (which, it just so happens, ash has.) In most cases, your weapon is already your best weapon. If ash prime were to trade off his tankiness for slightly lower weapon damage, that would be balanced.

 

Abilities are an augmentation to what you use, most certainly not your primary source of damage. Ash prime can still use regular weapons just as well. Giving him a few bad abilities and then giving him exceptional stats would be very similar to, let's say, a set of mods which boosted your health by 100 while limiting you to either primary weapons, secondary weapons, or melee. If someone is already using that style, it gives them a huge advantage without any penalty whatsoever.

 

Also, to touch on mobility, it was designed around "takes more damage, but easier to hit." The fact is this is straight up untrue. Mobility affects the overall ease of use of a frame, but by no means how hard they are to hit. In the case of frost prime, his sprint speed is also low, so he has no alternative to going slow. With ash prime, due to his high sprint speed, he can simply switch to running outside of combat. Inside of combat, though, he is free to flip and jump and double jump and wallrun and roll. Even though these movements might not get him as far, they will still make him just as hard to hit as if a loki were doing them. Even then, double jumping trickery can still be used to make an ash p go faster than a "fast" frame bullet jumping and somersaulting.

[Naftal]

For one, he does not have reasonably good stats. Regardless of justification or not, he has exceptional stats. Again, regardless of whether or not his abilities suck, 50% of the time abilities aren't even practical, no matter what frame you use. That can be due to not having energy or not being the right time. While abilities aren't always practical, stats, especially exceptional stats, are a bonus 100% of the time. Even then, in high level play, trying to rely on abilities usually gets you killed or sacrifices time. In skilled 1v1's, it's unlikely to see more than 2 or 3 casts per match of abilities which aren't of the #1 damaging type (which, it just so happens, ash has.) In most cases, your weapon is already your best weapon. If ash prime were to trade off his tankiness for slightly lower weapon damage, that would be balanced.

 

Abilities are an augmentation to what you use, most certainly not your primary source of damage. Ash prime can still use regular weapons just as well. Giving him a few bad abilities and then giving him exceptional stats would be very similar to, let's say, a set of mods which boosted your health by 100 while limiting you to either primary weapons, secondary weapons, or melee. If someone is already using that style, it gives them a huge advantage without any penalty whatsoever.

 

Also, to touch on mobility, it was designed around "takes more damage, but easier to hit." The fact is this is straight up untrue. Mobility affects the overall ease of use of a frame, but by no means how hard they are to hit. In the case of frost prime, his sprint speed is also low, so he has no alternative to going slow. With ash prime, due to his high sprint speed, he can simply switch to running outside of combat. Inside of combat, though, he is free to flip and jump and double jump and wallrun and roll. Even though these movements might not get him as far, they will still make him just as hard to hit as if a loki were doing them. Even then, double jumping trickery can still be used to make an ash p go faster than a "fast" frame bullet jumping and somersaulting.

Slowing down Ash more doesn't fix the problem of ehp imbalance in the game, it's just another step towards an overall slower game.

 

They need to balance frame ehps. The tankiest frame can't be much tankier than the squishiest frame there is, even with the current mobility differences.

[Phasedragon]

Slowing down Ash more doesn't fix the problem of ehp imbalance in the game, it's just another step towards an overall slower game.

 

They need to balance frame ehps. The tankiest frame can't be much tankier than the squishiest frame there is, even with the current mobility differences.

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.........Mobility differences do hardly anything for balance, so the whole idea of a tank should just be scrapped, at least to the degree that they are right now, having as much as twice as much health and getting massive gains even further from mods which barely affect others.

[Azuranium]

Sincerely what currently makes all tank frames broken is the fact that the negative mobility +armor and shields/health mods don't impact them negatively. Removing those mods would bring them back into line, I mean whenever you come across a Frost or Ash that doesn't have the armor mods you can feel it by how quick they die and how much less menacing they are.

[Nazrethim]

Sincerely what currently makes all tank frames broken is the fact that the negative mobility +armor and shields/health mods don't impact them negatively. Removing those mods would bring them back into line, I mean whenever you come across a Frost or Ash that doesn't have the armor mods you can feel it by how quick they die and how much less menacing they are.

That's true. Since I'm a melee player I'm forced to use those mods (because there isn't a single +survivability mod specifically for pure melee, for reasons I cannot fathom) so for me Ash P is the only frame with the right passive mobility and survivability to work on a full melee mode, if DE adds some mods or changes to boost melee survivability and mobility, then a nerf to Ash P could be justified, since the tankyness and mobility would come from other sources allowing players to use almost any frame in pure melee. But that isn't the case, Ash P is the ONLY melee friendly frame due to it's stats and the fact that you can spend energy channeling. That's why I say he isn't op, because I don't go around with autos, or opticors, or mareloks or tigris or any ranged weapon, the problem with Ash P thus isn't the stats but the weapons (autos are infamously overpowered, even after nerfs much like the jat kittag)

[Nighttide77]

Ya know...it's off topic, but I hope we get a boatload of new PvP melee mods today...and a return of Relentless Assault.

And hopefully AOE mods that +radius -damage and vice versa....and Ogris and Ignis...and rebalance of all AOE weapons.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Nighttide77