Has Warframe Been Ruined By The Update 18 Reveal? [Spoiler City.]

[StabbyTentacles]

Most people find it hard to relate or otherwise empathize with the life and trials of a nuclear missile much less a remotely controlled weapons platform operated by someone hidden away in nearly complete safety. By removing the Human or in this case Tenno element from any risk during missions much of the corresponding tension and emotional investment has also been stripped away.

 

Worse it runs the risk of players starting to empathize with the closest things to humans they do find in missions, that being the Corpus and Grineer rather than the Lotus itself.

 

Once again I do plan on giving DE an update or two to try fixing this as the ride so far as been wonderful but if they won't or cannot do so I worry about how much of a player base they will be able to retain in the long run.

 

Yes, some will be able to look past the lack of a Tenno element actually being at risk, but I fear the number will be much smaller than otherwise would be possible. Right or wrong its why much of fiction features humans or human like things in the thick of things as it appeals to the widest audience possible. The farther you move from that similarity the smaller your potential pool of fans shrinks.

 

So in short, while I enjoyed the quest it has left me with a number of doubts that I hope will be addressed over time by DE. How things will stand a few updates from now remains to be seen and they have done quite well in maintaining a close rappaport with their fanbase and as said the ride so far has been quite fun.

 

Though until we do have more information personally I'm not sure what to think about Warframe nor my future as part of it

Well said Ws60, I particularly liked the  nuclear missile analogy. Yes I feel too that with the introduction of the operator, and the whole player - operator - warframe construct, being added. That  this decision has reduced and lessened the warframe experience a great deal, and with it, much, if not all corresponding tension, importance, and emotional investment has also been discarded.

Edited December 9, 2015 by StabbyTentacles

[(PSN)Ana_Nuann]

If you dislike the direction, oh well, it's not your story. That's life, and being able to cope with such things is essential.

If you however think its worth quitting over.... Then you never liked the game to begin with so don't even act like this is why.

Trying to stir up a controversy is pretty vile behavior.

If the gameplay has stopped appealing to you, leave quietly. There is dignity in that. Trying to tie it to story direction in a game where story is essentially an afterthought? Come on... Being disingenuous is perhaps the worst thing a human can be.

[(PSN)supersocc11]

Normally I don't take part in the overall Warframe community but in this case I wanted to add my own thoughts. Having finished Second Dream and had a full day or so to digest it I can't say I hate it. Nor can I say I love it. In truth, and perhaps most telling of all, I don't know how to feel about it.

On one hand we finally got some concrete answers as to what Tenno are and frankly I was blown away as the quest was well done. Honestly one of the best I've seen DE put out. The whole kid reveal was not entirely expected as the codex, despite claims to the contrary, was a bit mixed on the subject. Then again any living work of fiction is going to change over time so such things are par for the course. Now I don't imagine nor would I personally ask for them to completely toss out what they've done up to this point.

However, there is a reason I have mixed opinions.

First off I don't mind the operators apparent physical age though I also wouldn't say no to being able to change their appearance to young adults or even more customization options in general. Much as the overall game was a bag of half-filled promises something even half as capable as Fallout 4's character creator is something I'd love to see. What does bug me is for hardened veterans of thousands of battles, soldiers who brought low both the Sentients and then their former masters, they don't act like it. I tried leaving Operator Voice on for a mission or two before I had to turn it off. Not only for what was being said but that they were also saying things I would not. All while wearing MY username. Unless I have control of what they say, when they say it or can otherwise rename them there will be a cold day in hell before I will accept an NPC putting words in my mouth. So for now and into the foreseeable future they will remain muted.

Secondly as has been mentioned previously in this thread and many others the reveal leaves a LOT of potential untwists that need explaining or else risk losing whatever emotional punch they had. If our Tenno avatar is really safe on the moon before the quest and inside the orbiter afterwards then what was the big deal about Vor's Prize? Or Limbo/Mirages death, Valkyrie's torture, the Gradivus Dilemma, AladV, or for that matter just about every cryopod defense mission ever. Heck in the events case there's now the potential that the player base willingly allowed a number of colonists to be enslaved over drones not actual Tenno. Puts a much darker spin on things and frankly doesn't make the Tenno and Lotus out to be the good guys outside of fiat declaration. Now these can be fixed but DE will HAVE to address them or else much of the gameplay so far will be undermined to the point of insignificance at best and outright parody at worst. Basically there's still the possibility of an Author's Saving Throw for those who follow TV Tropes and I expect there will be one with the next update or two. At least I would very much hope so.

Which leads into the last issue I've had. Previously during a pitched fight you did your damnedest to make sure everyone got out because to one degree or the other they were your buddies and you don't leave them behind. The Stalker appearing mattered for similar reasons as he was directly out to try KILLING you, the Tenno. G3 would do bad things and Zanuka would outright abduct you to be chopped up if it had a chance. However now that the warframes are at best VR controlled drones, based on the VERY limited info we have now (see author's saving throw above), I've found it quite hard to actually care what happens during a mission. If a squadmates frame goes down, my own goes down, life support runs out or any number of other dangers...well frankly they have exactly zero significance to me now. Our actual Tenno avatar is not at risk from any of these and while both expensive and difficult to replace at the days end Warframes are just hardware. In essence with what we currently know lore wise they've gone from being US (with many often contradictory opinions on exactly what that meant) to recoverable weapon platforms put in the same category as munitions. Something to be used with care, recovered when practical, but in the end if needs dictate it meant to be expended without a second thought. Precisely because they can be replaced and much easier than their operators or the mission objective.

Honestly it runs face first into Burnsides zeroth law of sci-fi writing; in short that audiences made up of people who want to read or otherwise experience a story about people or something similar they can relate to, not silicon chips. This is why many immediately latched onto the Warframes themselves. Gave them personalities and even speculated about what lay under the armor. Most people find it hard to relate or otherwise empathize with the life and trials of a nuclear missile much less a remotely controlled weapons platform operated by someone hidden away in nearly complete safety. By removing the Human or in this case Tenno element from any risk during missions much of the corresponding tension and emotional investment has also been stripped away. Worse it runs the risk of players starting to empathize with the closest things to humans they do find in missions, that being the Corpus and Grineer rather then the Lotus itself. Once again I do plan on giving DE an update or two to try fixing this as the ride so far as been wonderful but if they won't or cannot do so I worry about how much of a player base they will be able to retain in the long run. Yes, some will be able to look past the lack of a Tenno element actually being at risk, but I fear the number will be much smaller than otherwise would be possible. Right or wrong its why much of fiction features humans or human like things in the thick of things as it appeals to the widest audience possible. The farther you move from that similarity the smaller your potential pool of fans shrinks.

So in short, while I enjoyed the quest it has left me with a number of doubts that I hope will be addressed over time by DE. How things will stand a few updates from now remains to be seen and they have done quite well in maintaining a close rappaport with their fanbase and as said the ride so far has been quite fun. Though until we do have more information personally I'm not sure what to think about Warframe nor my future as part of it

Please send this exact message to Steve, scott, Rebecca, sheldon, etc. 50 times. Every day. For the next year.

[(PSN)Ana_Nuann]

Please don't. They knew some would not like it.

You were warned beforehand, and told explicitly that they have a direction they are going with and that it won't change due to a few people being unhappy.

So don't. If you care about having your negative opinions and remarks be respected, then respect the vision of the creators and don't even jokingly suggest they be bombarded with complaints.

[(PSN)supersocc11]

Please don't. They knew some would not like it.

You were warned beforehand, and told explicitly that they have a direction they are going with and that it won't change due to a few people being unhappy.

So don't. If you care about having your negative opinions and remarks be respected, then respect the vision of the creators and don't even jokingly suggest they be bombarded with complaints.

Obviously it's a joke. I would not expect anyone to do that! I was just being extreme (intentionally) in my support for the post because I agree with everything. And yes, I saw steves tweets saying that some will not be pleased. At least they were expecting some backlash. I am assuming that they have plans to remedy some of this in u19 where I would bet money on them exploring the makeup of the warframes themselves.

[StabbyTentacles]

If you dislike the direction, oh well, it's not your story. That's life, and being able to cope with such things is essential.

If you however think its worth quitting over.... Then you never liked the game to begin with so don't even act like this is why.

Trying to stir up a controversy is pretty vile behavior.

If the gameplay has stopped appealing to you, leave quietly. There is dignity in that. Trying to tie it to story direction in a game where story is essentially an afterthought? Come on... Being disingenuous is perhaps the worst thing a human can be.

You are projecting your unpleasant impulses on me, and apparently a lightweight too; both I find to be fairly noxious/vile behavior. If you can’t appreciate, or perceive/understand simple honest criticism then I suggest you leave quietly. There maybe some dignity in that.

Projecting your unpleasant impulses on others is pretty substandard. I’ll ask you to leave me out of your next outpouring please, and be on your way.

[(PSN)Ana_Nuann]

I don't think anyone currently unhappy with the second dream should begin holding their breath that DE will wipe away their tears and make it alright with u19.

They never desired to please everyone and attempting to do so is the fastest way to destroy an artistic vision.

I am sure they intend to explain more about what warframes are, but it isn't going to change what 18 revealed.

The lesson here is this: "whenever you deign to build your own house on top of someone else's foundation, expect disaster."

If there is really any reasonable hope that those complaining could cling to it is the future inclusion of an option to turn off operator pop ups entirely, ordis too while they are at it.

That actually can happen. Whether it does is another thing. The important part is that its possible, and therefore a reasonable expectation to have.

[(PSN)Ana_Nuann]

You are projecting your unpleasant impulses on me, and apparently a lightweight too; both I find to be fairly noxious/vile behavior. If you can’t appreciate, or perceive/understand simple honest criticism then I suggest you leave quietly. There maybe some dignity in that.

Projecting your unpleasant impulses on others is pretty substandard. I’ll ask you to leave me out of your next outpouring please, and be on your way.

The only one projecting is you. I merely provided an impartial observation of the behavior on show in this topic in general.

That you responded in the manner you did only demonstrates that you internalized what I said. A practice one would only do if they felt it struck true.

So are you certain this is how you want things to play out?

Because you seem set up to fail. I know exactly what I am commenting on, you only presume to.

That is not a position you should try to argue from.

[StabbyTentacles]

Posted directly under my post attacking... 

 

I’ll ask you to leave me out of your next outpouring please, and be on your way.

[Omnimorph]

What makes your operator atrocious and awful?  The atrociousness and awfulness of the operator. (xD)

 

But to be specific if I must: (looks,appearance, presentation, voice, dialogue, they’re failure to come even remotely close to super beings, the 1Dness, teen summer blockbuster angle, using them, and accepting them as anything other than desperate pandering is such a sell out,  a few thoughts that spring to mind. :P)

 

It's fair enough if you think there aren't enough options there to express your particular in-game personality, or if you think the art design could be better and more varied.  But there's nothing per se about the thing in the chair being biologically young-looking that blocks you from imbuing it with whatever personality you want.

 

And to me, when I looked through all the customization options, looks-wise, I was certainly able to make the visuals match the character I've been playing all along, which is a mostly cautious, a bit whimsical, and occasionally berserk personality.  There's plenty colour options, and the given faces are varied enough to get you into the ballpark of some quite different personality feels.

 

But the system could certainly use more variety - and of course, we're going to get more, which will probably involve credits or plat, as well as no doubt some more free things along the way :)

 

The voices are even more limited, and some of the in-game Tenno scripts, I agree, are terrible but I think you've got to cut DE some slack here - the work they've done is massive, and things have to be prioritized, with limited time, energy and money.  At least you can switch the in-game Tenno off, and with just the visuals alone, I think if you give it a chance you'll be able to knock up something not too offensive that expresses the personality of the Tenno you've been playing all along.

 

It's the mind, the personality, the character, that's important.  All you need to do is impose the character you want to play, on the thing in the chair: THAT'S WHAT IT'S THERE FOR, for you to project a personality into it, not for you to feel like you're forced to play some imaginary "emo teen" that you've never played.

[Ziegrif]

Upon waking up with no memory our Tenno assumed that their body WAS the Frame. As you have witnessed, you learned the truth. But it didn't crush you. You adapted. You accepted. Unlike the Stalker - who was driven mad by the truth - you simply continued on your path. Like a Tenno should.

 

Adapted and accepted?

Like hell I did.

 

I'll backstab the Lotus the first chance I get.

[StabbyTentacles]

Please send this exact message to Steve, scott, Rebecca, sheldon, etc. 50 times. Every day. For the next year.

I'm pretty sure everybody else understood your playfulness here.

[StabbyTentacles]

It's fair enough if you think there aren't enough options there to express your particular in-game personality, or if you think the art design could be better and more varied.  But there's nothing per se about the thing in the chair being biologically young-looking that blocks you from imbuing it with whatever personality you want.

 

And to me, when I looked through all the customization options, looks-wise, I was certainly able to make the visuals match the character I've been playing all along, which is a mostly cautious, a bit whimsical, and occasionally berserk personality.  There's plenty colour options, and the given faces are varied enough to get you into the ballpark of some quite different personality feels.

 

But the system could certainly use more variety - and of course, we're going to get more, which will probably involve credits or plat, as well as no doubt some more free things along the way :)

 

The voices are even more limited, and some of the in-game Tenno scripts, I agree, are terrible but I think you've got to cut DE some slack here - the work they've done is massive, and things have to be prioritized, with limited time, energy and money.  At least you can switch the in-game Tenno off, and with just the visuals alone, I think if you give it a chance you'll be able to knock up something not too offensive that expresses the personality of the Tenno you've been playing all along.

 

It's the mind, the personality, the character, that's important.  All you need to do is impose the character you want to play, on the thing in the chair: THAT'S WHAT IT'S THERE FOR, for you to project a personality into it, not for you to feel like you're forced to play some imaginary "emo teen" that you've never played.

Omnimorph 

 

Re The voices are even more limited, and some of the in-game Tenno scripts, I agree, are terrible but I think you've got to cut DE some slack here - 

 

Done, slack given.

I do joke around, but I hope my position here is clear; Tenno being these kids/young adults/whatever feels Revenge of the Sithy, the concept is hilariously bad imho. Going to the relay and having this wide variety/diversity of tenno hanging out seemed really compelling, kinda like a future utopia! Were all in this together yada yada…

Now we’re not only all the same, but we’re also all kids/young adults/whatever… meh Just to be clear being kids/young adults/whatever isn’t killing it for me (Although they are seriously dorky, sorry/apologies for any offence.) It’s the three tiers of character removal, there’s me> (some dude playing warframe) >(my tenno, some 1D dude sitting in a chair safe in a ship playing) > (my warframe)  I used to be the guy in the ship, playing the warframe. Not this little emo douchebag. I know alot of guys who’re playing who find this nuts, they couldn’t be bothered with all the raging fanboys so… Q.Q for me I guess.

[W4RH3AD]

I always thought that the scene where the warframe pulls out the sword on his own without the Operator was an indication that the warframe itself was sentient.

 

I hope both the Operator and the warframe itself gets a bit more fleshing out; and more quests to explicitly show the relationship of these two.

 

And I thought that the Stalker was an example of this 'sentient warframe' who somehow gotten free of his Tenno's control and was driven mad by the implications of what he was driven to do under the Tenno's control, and hence his hatred for the Tenno.

[(PSN)Ana_Nuann]

Tough. If you want to insult others StabbyTentacles, do it to a mirror.

You don't get to tell me I can't reply to you throwing a tantrum when a general statement I made incited you to respond.

You are free to leave if you dislike the direction something takes, you are free to stand silent. You aren't free to tell me to do anything.

You clearly didn't read the things you saw fit to cry foul over and at that point and many others you should have stopped. You made a mistake.

Any reasonable person would have thought long and hard over what they had read. Would have reviewed the content of what's already been posted and seen what connected to what, and failing that asked for clarification.

What you did? Hm, well... Might just be the sort of reaction I would expect from someone who physically resembles our newly revealed Tenno.

[Stahlhammer]

I felt like it was revealed too early. But then again, there's so much more to find out.

[GnosticCat]

I always thought that the scene where the warframe pulls out the sword on his own without the Operator was an indication that the warframe itself was sentient.

 

I hope both the Operator and the warframe itself gets a bit more fleshing out; and more quests to explicitly show the relationship of these two.

 

And I thought that the Stalker was an example of this 'sentient warframe' who somehow gotten free of his Tenno's control and was driven mad by the implications of what he was driven to do under the Tenno's control, and hence his hatred for the Tenno.

To me it seems that Salker was more like most of posters in this tread - driven mad by knowledge of nature of operator :)

[zenksy]

i had to admit i was kinda disappointed that these warframes were just puppets i missed their unique mysterious personalities

[Naftal]

U18:

 

Pros:

-Ivara is very strong and fun to use frame

-Sortie rewards are nice

 

Cons:

-Warframe lore is now cringy and we have no options and are forced to be a naive teeno with bland personality and obviously zero experience on anything

-PVP speed has been ruined, removing the only proper end game from me. Ehp imbalances are still just as bad and nothing is done to it.

-Focus system results in more annoyance than enjoyment due to misleading and lying descriptions. Focus cap makes this even worse since it can nullify all the work you do when they change the things you wanted useless and you have to wait for days to get the xp back somewhere else.

-All new content is dailies. Sorties, focus cap, daily login. Do those and there's nothing to do until the next day.

[StabbyTentacles]

U18:

 

Pros:

-Ivara is very strong and fun to use frame

-Sortie rewards are nice

 

Cons:

-Warframe lore is now cringy and we have no options and are forced to be a naive teeno with bland personality and obviously zero experience on anything

-PVP speed has been ruined, removing the only proper end game from me. Ehp imbalances are still just as bad and nothing is done to it.

-Focus system results in more annoyance than enjoyment due to misleading and lying descriptions. Focus cap makes this even worse since it can nullify all the work you do when they change the things you wanted useless and you have to wait for days to get the xp back somewhere else.

-All new content is dailies. Sorties, focus cap, daily login. Do those and there's nothing to do until the next day.

Waiting on Ivara, although she does look nice/fun.

Focus cap still has me confused.

Tough. If you want to insult others StabbyTentacles, do it to a mirror.

You don't get to tell me I can't reply to you throwing a tantrum when a general statement I made incited you to respond.

You are free to leave if you dislike the direction something takes, you are free to stand silent. You aren't free to tell me to do anything.

You clearly didn't read the things you saw fit to cry foul over and at that point and many others you should have stopped. You made a mistake.

Any reasonable person would have thought long and hard over what they had read. Would have reviewed the content of what's already been posted and seen what connected to what, and failing that asked for clarification.

What you did? Hm, well... Might just be the sort of reaction I would expect from someone who physically resembles our newly revealed Tenno.

TLDR

[GnosticCat]

U18:

 

Pros:

-Ivara is very strong and fun to use frame

-Sortie rewards are nice

 

Cons:

-Warframe lore is now cringy and we have no options and are forced to be a naive teeno with bland personality and obviously zero experience on anything

-PVP speed has been ruined, removing the only proper end game from me. Ehp imbalances are still just as bad and nothing is done to it.

-Focus system results in more annoyance than enjoyment due to misleading and lying descriptions. Focus cap makes this even worse since it can nullify all the work you do when they change the things you wanted useless and you have to wait for days to get the xp back somewhere else.

-All new content is dailies. Sorties, focus cap, daily login. Do those and there's nothing to do until the next day.

I am not sure that having child solders of sort is cringy. Their spoken parts do need more polishing. Obviously zero experience doesn't make sense considering he/she was inside frame all along. Personality I excuse for now as shock from having dumped from sleep. Hopping to get it gets better in time.

Yes, I am skipping focus for now, I will wait until it more stable, no need to jump on on it now and rage.

Regarding new content - it is more then we had before.

[Arrocha]

Cons:

-Warframe lore is now cringy and we have no options and are forced to be a naive teeno with bland personality and obviously zero experience on anything

 

Naive Tenno with zero experience in anything... So we're just going to ignore the fact that they have been piloting these Warframes since the Orokin were still around and are much, much older than "children". We're also going to ignore the fact that they have slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Grineer, Corpus, Orokin, Infested, and even Sentients. Right...

 

I will never understand this idiotic, knee-jerk reaction of "It looks like a kid, it must be naive idiot with no experience whatsoever" that a lot of complainers have adopted. These "children" are easily some the most skilled wartime veterans of the Warframe universe.

 

 

As for their personality, it is quite bland, but I wonder if it would be worse or better if their personality was improved. If the operators become less Self-Insert like, and gain a well developed personality of their own, I'd wager a lot of the complainers and even fans would find it harder to connect with their operators saying things that they would never say. In fact, lots of people already have issue with the few lines that the operators do have.

[Naftal]

I will never understand this idiotic, knee-jerk reaction of "It looks like a kid, it must be naive idiot with no experience whatsoever" that a lot of complainers have adopted. These "children" are easily some the most skilled wartime veterans of the Warframe universe.

Yeah this is how it's supposed to be. However the immersion was broken immediately when the teeno opened their mouths after the quest mid mission. Their voices should not be on by default to prevent this.

 

Like I said, their inexperience is obvious. This teen is not the guy who has been controlling my warframes the past years.

[StabbyTentacles]

It would be better if there were two schools of tenno; suits Tenno, and the lovable chair Tenno.

 

Suits Tenno, would be as it was, no dialogue, no customization; just: you FP view, your ship, weapons, warframes...

 

Your lovable tween chair Tenno, well they can do whatever it is you guys want them to do, endless dialogue… genetic breeding program… whatever it is you guys want.  

Edited December 9, 2015 by StabbyTentacles

[achromos]

Look, full disclosure.  I like the lore change, because there is actual substantial lore and it is good quality.  However, I do feel like it is the same as giving Link, from Zelda a personality that clashes with our internal belief of him.  He's the strong, and silent type, but also malleable, which is what the warframes used to be to us.

 

I can see how this flys in the face of a lot of people,  and I can see how this would cause someone to twinge a bit.   Though, maybe I'm not that invested in one way of thinking?  One thing I've learned in warframe and Rob summs it up best.  "Love nothing."  I liked the Silent, strong, warframes with malleable personalities just like I do link, mario, ect.   However, I'm not going to try and sink the ship to spite the captain. 

 

It comes down to this, what in the gameplay does this change?  Well, you have this new voice showing up in missions making inept comments (as even the lotus makes, reminder tenno for the 20th time... stay away from the fire! :p) however you can turn them off (seriously, for people who have a hard time coping don't remove this option) and never, NEVER hear from them again.  The most you have to put up with is (if you even want to use the focus system) is looking at the operater when you go to use the focus system.

 

So, I ask again.  What in the actual gameplay does this lore effect?  Nothing.  You can still change warframes on a fly, you can still kill indiscriminately, you don't need to feed the damn thing.  You have the option however, to embrace the focus system for the great tool it is.

 

Some of you have voiced your opinion, and I am all for that.  However, I think it might be time to move on.  Either enjoy the game, for the gameplay, sheer mindless fun, or give it a break for a while.  You aren't forced any more then I am to play this game.  I understand that you guys were really attached to the lore, and you have my sympathies, but you can just turn off the Operators voice and not even get a single transmission from him/her afterwards and ONLY have to deal with him when you are dealing with the focus system.  So is it that hard to cope?

Edited December 9, 2015 by achromos