Sentient Resistance Needs To Be Based On Damage, Not Hits

[AdunSaveMe]

Because otherwise the only viable weapons for defeating them within a decent amount of time will be ones that instantly burst them. This is exactly the same problem grineer manics used to have; if you're not using something that can instantly burst, you are at a severe disadvantage, because their resistance kicks in after they get hit a certain number of times, instead of after they take a certain amount of damage.

 

So building elements and swapping weapons properly like you're supposed to becomes irrelevant, because you're using a supra instead of a sancti tigris.

[fortris]

It's the exact opposite issue that nullifiers have (single shot weapons are at a huge disadvantage over rapid fire), honestly I don't understand why there are enemy types biased towards a TYPE of weapon rather than the damage it does period.

[EvilChaosKnight]

Why not bring a slow hard hitting secondary (with a different damage type), eh?

Man, I've been waiting to say that after all the nullifier debates.

[Paradoxbomb]

I actually don't mind weapons with slower fire rates but higher DPH finally having a niche in the game, but I do think there should be a limit on how many damage types the Sentients can resist, as their ability to become permanently resilient to all damage types to the point where you're just barely hitting double digits is a bit excessive. Low RoF weapons should still be more advantageous, but high RoF weapons don't deserve to be punished to this degree.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Paradoxbomb

[[DE]Momaw]

High damage/low ROF weapons versus Nullifiers is inefficient but it still works. You can drop a null bubble with a few arrows or a few shots with your shotgun or whatever it is you have.

 

High ROF/low damage weapons versus Sentients is basically pointless because they adapt almost utterly to them.  You'll run out of ammo before they run out of health.

 

The core of the problem I think is that Sentients never "unadapt".  If you half way kill them with corrosion and cold, they adapt and are immune to it. That's fine. You switch to your alternate weapon and force them adapt to viral and radiation....  Now they're immune to viral and radation. Also fine.  But they shouldn't also still be immune to corrosion and cold.   The issue isn't that they adapt, the issue is that they can adapt to every weapon and every damage type you have, leaving it nearly impossible (or at least monumentally expensive in ammo) to actually finish the fight.

[fortris]

Why not bring a slow hard hitting secondary (with a different damage type), eh?

Man, I've been waiting to say that after all the nullifier debates.

Why do I have to change my playstyle for (literally) two enemies?

 

High damage/low ROF weapons versus Nullifiers is inefficient but it still works. You can drop a null bubble with a few arrows or a few shots with your shotgun or whatever it is you have.

 

High ROF/low damage weapons versus Sentients is basically pointless because they adapt almost utterly to them.  You'll run out of ammo before they run out of health.

 

The core of the problem I think is that Sentients never "unadapt".  If you half way kill them with corrosion and cold, they adapt and are immune to it. That's fine. You switch to your alternate weapon and force them adapt to viral and radiation....  Now they're immune to viral and radation. Also fine.  But they shouldn't also still be immune to corrosion and cold.   The issue isn't that they adapt, the issue is that they can adapt to every weapon and every damage type you have, leaving it nearly impossible (or at least monumentally expensive in ammo) to actually finish the fight.

See above reply.

[Lost_Cartographer]

I recommend to DE that IPS damage not be resisted at all, just the elements (toxic, heat, corrosive, etc.)  While it won't fix the perceived issue of the Sentients eventually resisting all elements ever (they do see-saw, but they resist a total of like 6-7 elements including IPS right now,) it does mean that players can still do some damage with the average weapon, even if it's still horrifically reduced after losing out on the majority of its damage output on top of having to plow through armor, at least most weapons won't ever be rendered completely, utterly worthless under any circumstance.  A Tenno could even bring weapons modded solely for improved IPS and it would be a guaranteed overall higher damage output towards Sentients, but One won't have the option of swapping between weapons with differing elements to deal greater bursts of damage - a little give and take there.

[FrostboundFlame]

okay, this is total crap. I know people have said that's how it works, but I'm almost certain that's not how it works. I have hit them dead-on with a tonkor shot, taken off about a 4th of their hp, and the next shot does next to nothing.

 

That said, I actually seem to have more luck with my Braton Prime, which, while it does end up eating more ammo, seems to trigger their damage reduction at about the same amount; 1/4th of their hp depleted.

[Naqel]

The current elemental damage system is bare-bones basic and it suffers for it due to poor enemy weakness/resistance planning.

 

The Sentient adaptation mechanic is just another frustrating gimmick, which seems to be what DE equates with "challenge".

 

Warframe is in dire need of a systemic and mechanic overhaul to it's combat, including aspects such as the way mods affect progression, and how warframe powers play into the gunplay and vice-versa.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Naqel

[AdunSaveMe]

The Sentient adaptation mechanic is just another frustrating gimmick, which seems to be what DE equates with "challenge".

Considering it follows the pattern of what DE has always done with new enemies, it's unlikely to change.

 

Of all the things they pay attention to, enemy design is the one thing that really just feels like it's going over their heads.

Edited December 8, 2015 by AdunSaveMe

[AdunSaveMe]

okay, this is total crap. I know people have said that's how it works, but I'm almost certain that's not how it works. I have hit them dead-on with a tonkor shot, taken off about a 4th of their hp, and the next shot does next to nothing.

Yes, that would count as bursting them instantly.

 

Sustained damage is not viable solely because the game arbitrarily decides it's not.

[FrostboundFlame]

Yes, that would count as bursting them instantly.

 

Sustained damage is not viable solely because the game arbitrarily decides it's not.

 

except I'd still need ~4 shots to kill a sentient with my tonkor, the problem being that any subsequent hits do barely anything. (from roughly 4-5k to 70. I'd need to do another proper test.)

[V4YR4]

Sorry, but if you bring two half-decent weapons into a Sentient battle with two different damage types, you are really golden. If these two types still don't get you very close to 1% of the mob's HP, you just need stronger weapons. I can whittle down the last 40% of Sentient HP with a bloody Furis (note: auto-fire, high ROF low damage per shot secondary!) and if that fails to finish it off, I take out melee and drop some Slash on it. Done.

 

Also I think for an enemy that almost has guaranteed rare component drops, they should be challenging *and* they should present a damage wall in the exact way that they do today: if your weapon is too weak per shot, you won't kill it. Good riddance.

 

To those who say 'I don't want to adapt playstyle to enemy encounters'... go play Call of Duty perhaps? Warframe is a game that REQUIRES adaptation to the mission and enemy type you face, it works that way for almost every single mechanic in the game. Why would Sentients be different?

Edited December 12, 2015 by V4YR4

[DarcnyssWolfe]

We have a far more common "uncommon" mob that fast firing weapons shred (Nullies). Now we have a truly uncommon (rare?) mob that is resistant to shredding but can be nuked (Sentients). On top of adaptation, having something other than bosses that slow firing cannons and nuke throwers excel at is a +1 in my book. That said, you should always carry a rof weapon and a damage weapon, just for the sake of being prepared.

Bonus: Full prime modded brakk and Twin grakatas can dropem before they can resist usually, the Twins usually take a single mag if the crit rng doesn't screw me over.

Edited December 12, 2015 by DarcnyssWolfe

[Yazeth]

Sorry, but if you bring two half-decent weapons into a Sentient battle with two different damage types, you are really golden. If these two types still don't get you very close to 1% of the mob's HP, you just need stronger weapons. I can whittle down the last 40% of Sentient HP with a bloody Furis (note: auto-fire, high ROF low damage per shot secondary!) and if that fails to finish it off, I take out melee and drop some Slash on it. Done.

Also I think for an enemy that almost has guaranteed rare component drops, they should be challenging *and* they should present a damage wall in the exact way that they do today: if your weapon is too weak per shot, you won't kill it. Good riddance.

To those who say 'I don't want to adapt playstyle to enemy encounters'... go play Call of Duty perhaps? Warframe is a game that REQUIRES adaptation to the mission and enemy type you face, it works that way for almost every single mechanic in the game. Why would Sentients be different?

I have to agree. I don't have much of an issue dishing out the damage to take these guys down. My only issue atm is dodging the Battalysts' homing attacks. It's like when Corrupt Bombards were first released.

As for play style, you should be adapting in this game. I main Ash, but I must adapt and use someone different for Defense. For Raids, I may be forced to play a Vauban rather than a Loki for the team. In the Sorties, you still got to adapt (even if its all about spamming powers).

I still want to see what people are using and their builds for fighting against the Sentients. Ill post mine if I have time.

[AdunSaveMe]

To those who say 'I don't want to adapt playstyle to enemy encounters'...

Nobody said this. This is not the purpose of this thread. And anyone who resorts to saying "if you don't like it, go play CoD" instantly loses most of their credibility, but anyway.

 

You can say exactly the same thing for anything, really. Enemy forces you into high ROF loadouts? Just adapt, stop sticking to your instaburst guns. Enemy forces you into low ROF loadouts? Just adapt, stop sticking to your mindless bullet hoses. Every time someone raises legitimate issues with things in this game, people like yourself come along with some silly comments that make absolutely no argument whatsoever.

 

So you've missed the point, not just because this enemy doesn't make you adapt. It doesn't make you change your playstyle or make you think or whatever you people like to blanket-deny topics with. It makes you use a very specific loadout, nothing more, nothing less. It's stifling, binary enemy design and does absolutely nothing to add real challenge or interesting mechanics into the game. Instead of being something properly challenging that requires skill and thinking to get around, it instead turns into a gear check. A gear check is not a challenge, because it means the game decides you're going to be handicapped because you didn't bring a specific thing, no matter how skilled you are.

 

Also, good for you if you can whittle it down with a furis. The simple fact that you made that comment proves you have no idea what the point of this topic is, even though just reading the title should tell you how irrelevant that statement might be.

Edited December 12, 2015 by AdunSaveMe

[AdunSaveMe]

As for play style, you should be adapting in this game.

Being limited by loadout for an arbitrary reason that is far less enjoyable is not adaptation. You're not changing your tactics to beat the enemy, you're not encountering a higher skill wall, and you're not doing anything to change your playstyle. It creates a gear check meta, a meta that exists for something as binary and lazily-designed as % damage resist.

 

It's literally "take this gun to win". That is not an interesting enemy. It's not an interesting enemy that changes to face how you play and how you fight, or how you react to attacks, it doesn't require that you move faster or fight smarter or use different tactics. It requires that you take a specific kind of gun and click on the enemy, or take another kind of gun and click on the enemy for longer.

 

All I want is an interesting enemy that focuses more on skill than gear. Apparently that's not allowed.

Edited December 12, 2015 by AdunSaveMe

[Yazeth]

Nobody said this.

Why do I have to change my playstyle for (literally) two enemies?

Im sure this is a rhetorical question.

Also, what kind of weapons do you mean? First you said high burst weapons in your OP. Now you are saying high RoF weapons. If you mean the latter then that means that the regular Braton should be able to take them out, which I do not agree with as I think players should strive for some of the best gear as they head deeper into harder content.

If you just mean high burst DPS weapons then I get that. But even so, you are not all that limited either. You can use most bows, 4 snipers, 3-4 shotguns, and a boatload of rifles, and that's just for primaries. There is already a great number of strong weapons that trumpt over other weaker alt versions (ex. Bolter Prime > Supra). Use any of those weapons that suits your play style and you should be fine.

[AdunSaveMe]

Now you are saying high RoF weapons

No I'm not. You should read more than one line of my post.

[AdunSaveMe]

If you just mean high burst DPS weapons then I get that. But even so, you are not all that limited either. You can use most bows, 4 snipers, 3-4 shotguns, and a boatload of rifles, and that's just for primaries. There is already a great number of strong weapons that trumpt over other weaker alt versions (ex. Bolter Prime > Supra). Use any of those weapons that suits your play style and you should be fine.

Anything that does its damage over a period of fire (soma) instead of instantly (tigris) is at a disadvantage. They could have exactly the same average DPS and the over-time would still be at a disadvantage compared to the instantly because the resistance is based on hits.

 

This is the point I was making. I don't need tips, I don't need to know what guns do what. I was making exactly one very simple point that thus far has not been argued, because you lot keep thinking I'm talking about something else. It is very, very simple.

[Yazeth]

Anything that does its damage over a period of fire (soma) instead of instantly (tigris) is at a disadvantage. 

 

Alright, I get it now. The only reason I didn't was that I never had an issue with my Boltor Prime and Mara Detron Combo, so I probably misunderstood your stance, as I was grouping Soma and Tigris together as they deal high amounts of damage in a short amount of time. Though, I still feel that Sustained RoF weapons will still work if they can dish enough damage. I still don't see it being similar to Nullifier's issue where they make slow, single fire weapons obsolete. I'll have to do some testing on my own to see.

[DarcnyssWolfe]

Killed them with Kohm, sobek, Soma prime and a Winged furis, Three Grakatas (I want a forth T.T, o Prisma/Twins btw), Wraith Vipers and Wraith karak, and for total S&Gs Supra (unpotato'd) and secura cestra (tato'd). Comma separates what was used per kill, outside the last two, wasn't a very lengthy fight. Overall not that hard if your not running the same elements on all your weapons.

Ps. A single elemental Cerata would be an interesting thing to try once charge attacks are fixed (normal attack is combo, thrown high puncture+elemental).

[Necrius]

Not only that. Fix this darn resistance, they become immune to everything in my arsenal and don't lose this resistance even when they get a new one.

[Bezeloth]

Make it percentage of their hp and we are done. All weapons can be used.

[MirageKnight]

Overall not that hard if your not running the same elements on all your weapons.

 

This does not always work.

 

Make it so they can only adapt to elemental attacks, not physical attacks (Impact and Puncture in particular). Established lore / canon specifically states that they were vulnerable to low tech weapons that relied on physical damage for effectiveness.

 

Bring HP down to match Grineer heavies.

 

All weapons can be used.

Edited December 12, 2015 by MirageKnight