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[Spoiler] Proof Of The Warframe Psyche And A Disturbing Question


Evanescent
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Before I start, please make sure you have completed the second dream. Do not watch lets plays of the quest, do not read what happens out of curiosity no matter how hard it is. You will only be robbing yourself of the experience.

 

Don't do this to yourself.

 

 

Let me quote from Rhino Prime codex:

 

"...The hulking mass, flickering red, glinting like steel and fresh blood. Its skin changes, flowing like mercury when I'm blinded by the sudden muzzle-flashes. They do no good. The beast surges forward and the security men become crimson mist and gore. 
 
I'm a statue, a cornered animal. A gate opens inside me and recognition floods in. I have seen this monster before. I have cut its shell and eviscerated its brothers. I have given it pain and measured its response. I have crafted then rejected countless like it. But I've never seen this beast so close, without the shield, without restraints. I have never seen it... free. 
 
I know I will die so I just watch with curious acceptance. The beast squats down, shovelling a heap of gore into its mouth. It is watching me with vague eyes, a sense of recognition, ancestral memory. It knows who I am and what I've done.."
 
I would like you all to notice particularly the following from the extract:
 
I have given it pain and measured its response. I have crafted then rejected countless like it.
 
And
 
It is watching me with vague eyes, a sense of recognition, ancestral memory. It knows who I am and what I've done.
 
 
I think this provides conclusive proof that the Warframes themselves are sentient beings, repressed somehow into being hosts for the operator's consciousness.
The fact that it responded to stimuli, was able to discern and feel emotion (here, namely, rage) places it squarely in the category of a being that lives, feels, and to an extent understands.
 
The argument that it was being controlled by a tenno has been brought up, but it raises the question of why it would stop when it reaches the chamber where the zariman children were being kept, presumably in cryostasis. Why would it stop and look at its hands? Why would it stop at all? And if it was a morgue, what made it stop? What was left of the children then?
 
If we take the theory that the warframes are themselves separate creatures, it raises the question:
 
Were the orokin experimenting on two fronts?
 
On the children from Zariman, and on innocent people, turning them into what we know today as warframes?
 
For support I draw the dialogue we hear when passing through the moon after destroying the pendula. 
We hear of 'rejects at Lua', and of subjects whose minds 'have retreated to defend themselves' (don't quote me on this, I could not find the exact dialogues transcribed somewhere and would be happy to credit whoever can find it for me). It also matches up with why Warframes seem to have defining 'characters'-a particular gait, a particular attitude, and most importantly a particular gender, frame and build. If they were mere machines would it not make sense to make them in the same form to reduce production complications, costs etc and make them most efficient? But what if Warframes are cloned from the original people turned into these 'golems of flesh', inheriting  a ghost of their personality, physicality and spirit?
 
Notice how the Warframe acts when the operator charges it with Void energy. It grasps the Tenno in its arms. Notice its rolling gait-is it not...somewhat bestial? Of course this point is frail and can be easily dismissed as the warframe just being controlled by the operator. But it does beg the question-why is it so graceless, so restless as it carries the operator? Why can the operator not move it like he usually can? Perhaps because of the link being weaker?
Interesting, the question remains.
 
All this leads to the moment when the Warframe breaks War to save the Tenno. Did it consciously move to protect the operator? If so, what does it say about the relationship between these two beings-one great of strength and frail of mind and the other a master of the mind yet frail of flesh?
 
Lastly the manner of how the operator speaks during the
 
In the end, we are left with more questions. What then is the nature of the relationship between the tenno and the Warframe? Have their psyches blended together to make them something...more than a single being?
 
 
Finally we come to ask....to the tenno..is it a matter of the operator being their true body, or merely...
 
...one of many? 
 

 
 
Edit: fixed Spoiler fail.
Edited by Evanescent
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That is a VERY good question.

 

Any military worth it's pay is NOT going to rely on wonder weapons/doomsday weapons/whatever the hell you want to call them.

 

They are going to make LOTS of weapons. All sizes.

 

My favorite quote about that is actually from Babylon 5-

 

Lyta Alexander-

 

'...in a war you have a certain number of small weapons, a certain number of medium-size weapons and one or two really, really big ones. The kind of weapons you drop when you're out of small weapons and the medium weapons and you've got nothing left to use.'

 

Which ones are the Tenno? Small, medium or BIG? My bet? BIG. but that leaves LOTS of others potentially lying around.

Edited by Kalenath
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I've been asking myself pretty much the same questions but I think, at this point, we don't have enough information to make conclusions, just to speculate. I hope we will get the answers in the form of future quests sooner or later though.

 

The Rhino entry specifically is very confusing! The way I read it, it's about an incomplete version of the Rhino frame going on rampage, and once coming in proximity to the "sleeping" tenno, falling under the control of one of them. What made this possible? I have no idea (though I could make guesses like, the urgency of the situation, or compatibility between their void powers).

 

If that's what's happening in the codex entry, then indeed the Orokin were conducting multiple experiments in controlling and weaponizing void energies.

 

On the matter of the warframe's inelegant gait while holding the operator, I attributed it simply to the poor link they have at the moment, and the fact that the operator was inhabiting/controlling two bodies at the same time. It must have been really confusing and tough thing to do? Now as to the sword breaking moment, I like to think that this was the warframe acting on its own, in order to save its operator. I think that's the most dramatic and interesting interpretation overall. But again considering the Rhino entry, it could have been a feat on the operator's part instead, somehow managing to remotely control the frame, while awake and without the interface normally required for it.

 

I'd rather not jump to any conclusions before DE at the very least confirm whether or not they will develop this storyline more. But the way the operator talks during missions makes it seem that they're considering the warframes as something different from themselves. That's not ideal from my point of view but we gotta respect DE's creative vision here :)

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I've been asking myself pretty much the same questions but I think, at this point, we don't have enough information to make conclusions, just to speculate. I hope we will get the answers in the form of future quests sooner or later though.

 

The Rhino entry specifically is very confusing! The way I read it, it's about an incomplete version of the Rhino frame going on rampage, and once coming in proximity to the "sleeping" tenno, falling under the control of one of them. What made this possible? I have no idea (though I could make guesses like, the urgency of the situation, or compatibility between their void powers).

 

If that's what's happening in the codex entry, then indeed the Orokin were conducting multiple experiments in controlling and weaponizing void energies.

 

On the matter of the warframe's inelegant gait while holding the operator, I attributed it simply to the poor link they have at the moment, and the fact that the operator was inhabiting/controlling two bodies at the same time. It must have been really confusing and tough thing to do? Now as to the sword breaking moment, I like to think that this was the warframe acting on its own, in order to save its operator. I think that's the most dramatic and interesting interpretation overall. But again considering the Rhino entry, it could have been a feat on the operator's part instead, somehow managing to remotely control the frame, while awake and without the interface normally required for it.

 

I'd rather not jump to any conclusions before DE at the very least confirm whether or not they will develop this storyline more. But the way the operator talks during missions makes it seem that they're considering the warframes as something different from themselves. That's not ideal from my point of view but we gotta respect DE's creative vision here :)

What i find interesting about the gait is how similar it is to the description of the rampaging warframe from rhino prime's codex. Why was it so beast like? WHy the lumbering walk?

 

THis may be just me overthinking stuff but hey, it's what i speculate.

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The way i see it, warframes are sort of human sized evangelions (and apparently i'm not the only one).

 

On another note, the part where the frame carries the kid in its arms while being shot by the sentients was disturbingly beautiful, the sight of my rhino lifting my tenno... May be just a game, but it's been a while since i've had such an emotional response to a cinematic.

 

I like to think that it's not only the tenno controlling it. That would make it a little bit less beautiful.

Edited by Jinmori
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This reminds me something. In Rhino P´s codex, there is this part:

 

The beast fills the doorway, inches from him, dripping in blood, but still without violence. It stands there, looking at its hands. Davis whispers, "No one would have believed me." 

 

The part, it stands there, looking at its hands. Now if you don´t remember, go youtube the final part of the second dream, where Stalker attacked operator in the moon 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3vcQTM1Zlk,

watch 2:25, when Stalker hesitated, he did exactly that. He stands there, looking at his hands while the operator did the same. Plus, Lotus said, he showed the stalker the truth and he couldn´t accept it, and it drove him mad. Hunhow asked stalker in the end if he wonders whether he was one of the puppets. All imply that warframes actually have conciousness which is supressed somehow for the operator to control them.

Edited by Horaciozhao
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The RPC is set before the Zariman children became Tenno, before Warframes and before Transference.

I don't think you can conclude anything about the active attributes of a Warframe from that beast any more than you can gague how well a leather jacket will fit by looking at the Cow.

We need a definitive word from DE on whether they intended the closing sequence of the Second Dream to appear as if the player Tenno took remote control of the Warframe via extreme effort as the Zariman child did with the beast in the RPC or whether they were intending in suggesting intelligence was a fundamental part of a Warframe, dragging in a whole host of moral issues regarding mind control and slavery.

Edited by SilentMobius
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A nice twist would be if the Warframes themselves were created from the corpses of the Zariman adults/Infested tech.

 

Mommy.....?

 

Eeeew!

 

You know... I WOULDN'T put it past the Orokin as we have seen them portrayed. The elites anyway.

 

Margulis was different, but what rank/caste/status did she have? Does anyone know? I haven't seen that anyway that I remember.

Edited by Kalenath
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There is 1 thing that has been bothering me about the Stalker since the SD quest...why can he just speak by himself...but our Warframes can not?

Sure the Operator sort of speaks for us but...mostly he also speaks TO us, when he says "let's do this!" but then there are other times when he asks/wonders"Just how big is this place?" is that supposed to be our thoughts? Or is he speaking to us?.

Your idea that the Warframes are indeed Sentient beings might be pretty on point man.

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There is 1 thing that has been bothering me about the Stalker since the SD quest...why can he just speak by himself...but our Warframes can not?

Sure the Operator sort of speaks for us but...mostly he also speaks TO us, when he says "let's do this!" but then there are other times when he asks/wonders"Just how big is this place?" is that supposed to be our thoughts? Or is he speaking to us?.

Your idea that the Warframes are indeed Sentient beings might be pretty on point man.

 

MY thought is that they are a symbiotic relationship, Operator and Warframe. As they say, the Will and the Hand.

 

One cannot work without the other.

 

So... do the warframes evolve? Food for thought.

Edited by Kalenath
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MY thought is that they are a symbiotic relationship, Operator and Warframe. As they say, the Will and the Hand.

 

One cannot work without the other.

 

So... do the warframes evolve? Food for thought.

Questions questions and more questions. Ahh it just gives me shivers! It's so exciting!

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What i find interesting about the gait is how similar it is to the description of the rampaging warframe from rhino prime's codex. Why was it so beast like? WHy the lumbering walk?

 

THis may be just me overthinking stuff but hey, it's what i speculate.

 

It's impossible to say you are overthinking it! Maybe I am under-thinking it instead?

 

To me they didn't really feel similar. In the quest, the warframe seemed to be moving like it didn't have the strength to stand and walk properly, like it was carrying a great weight far beyond that of the tiny operator. The beast in the Rhino codex on the other hand doesn't seem to have such difficulties though admittedly things are a bit vague. But the way it's described it makes me imagine something more like an infested charger..

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This reminds me something. In Rhino P´s codex, there is this part:

 

The beast fills the doorway, inches from him, dripping in blood, but still without violence. It stands there, looking at its hands. Davis whispers, "No one would have believed me." 

 

The part, it stands there, looking at its hands. Now if you don´t remember, go youtube the final part of the second dream, where Stalker attacked operator in the moon 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3vcQTM1Zlk,

watch 2:25, when Stalker hesitated, he did exactly that. He stands there, looking at his hands while the operator did the same. Plus, Lotus said, he showed the stalker the truth and he couldn´t accept it, and it drove him mad. Hunhow asked stalker in the end if he wonders whether he was one of the puppets. All imply that warframes actually have conciousness which is supressed somehow for the operator to control them.

This just makes me wanna be able to replay or rewatch my own SD quest.

Fun, ain't it?

Totally

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This reminds me something. In Rhino P´s codex, there is this part:

 

The beast fills the doorway, inches from him, dripping in blood, but still without violence. It stands there, looking at its hands. Davis whispers, "No one would have believed me." 

 

The part, it stands there, looking at its hands. Now if you don´t remember, go youtube the final part of the second dream, where Stalker attacked operator in the moon 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3vcQTM1Zlk,

watch 2:25, when Stalker hesitated, he did exactly that. He stands there, looking at his hands while the operator did the same. Plus, Lotus said, he showed the stalker the truth and he couldn´t accept it, and it drove him mad. Hunhow asked stalker in the end if he wonders whether he was one of the puppets. All imply that warframes actually have conciousness which is supressed somehow for the operator to control them.

 

Hunhow never suggests that the Stalker is a Warframe. He says that Stalker is asking himself if he's one of these wretched things - the Tenno. Notice how he says that as the Stalker is looking at and about to grab the Tenno operator. In the Rhino Prime Codex entry, that is the Tenno becoming aware of his actions. The narrator is an unreliable one, who thinks that what he's looking at is an infested creature, when it is a Warframe. It was an experiment with transference. Not only that, but the pain that was felt? Probably the Tenno feeling pain (like Valkyr). He looks at his hands because he recognizes himself, just like the Tenno operator and Stalker both do in the quest.

Edited by AntoineFlemming
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