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Weapons Tier Upgrading = Make End Game All Weapons.


IfritKajiTora
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I suggest to add Tier to the weapons from 1 to 4.
And all weapons can be upgraded from TIER 1 to TIER 4.

Example:
Braton will be weapon Tier1
while Soma is weapon Tier 4

By upgrading braton to Tier 4 it will be as good as Soma it means viable at the end game.
Each tier will upgrade only DMG or maybe even critical chance and critical damage. its up to DE

Example: Braton Tier1: 20 damage
                Braton Tier2: 35 damage
                Braton Tier3: 50 damage
                Braton Tier4: 60 damage

Braton Prime is already a TIER 2 weapon
      Braton Prime Tier2: 35 damage
      Braton Prime Tier3: 50-55 damage (maybe slightly better damage)
      Braton Prime Tier4: 60-65 damage (maybe slightly better damage)

Prime weapons have already boost in Critical chance, critical damage, status chance, fire rate, magazine size etc, so those bonus will stay in those weapons by leveling their TIER.
The same will be with Prisma, Wraith and Vandal versions.

So on Tier 4 Braton Prime will be slightly better than standard Braton, because prime version have Higher fire rate, larger magazine and higher status chance.
Upgrading Tiers on weapon will make them require higher mastery Rank.

TIERS of each weapon can be upgraded by for example getting "weapon upgrader" from Voids, or from alerts (or buy in market), from syndicates. Its too up to DE.

All Weapons at tier4 should be preety balanced so everyone can use what they like to use, in the end game missions level 80-100 and higher.

Examples of starting weapon tiers:
Braton Tier 1
Braton Prime Tier 2
Scindo Tier 3
Scindo Prime Tier 4
War Tier 4
Broken War Tier 4
Gorgon Tier 1
Gorgon Wraith Tier 1 (wraith bonus to Status chance, short reload speed and 2dmg more)
Prisma Gorgon Tier 2 (because critical make it better in DPS than Wraith and standard version)
Soma Tier 4
Soma Prime Tier 4
Hek Tier 4
Vaykor Hek Tier 4
Sancti Tigris Tier 4
Tigris Tier 4
Boar Prime Tier 4
Boar Tier 4
Lex Tier 2
Lex Prime Tier 4
Aklex Tier 2
Machete Tier 1
Machete Wraith Tier 2
Magistar Tier 3

Edited by IfritKajiTora
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Nice idea, i'd really love to be able to use some of the "old" weapons, always so tempted to build and catalize AkLato but i'm pretty sure they can't keep up with AkMagnus or other secondaries.

 

This system reminds me of Dark Souls where some weapons and armor had less levels of upgrades but better base stats, while other would have poor baginning stats but more upgrade levels available.

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IMO it's a bad idea since either thing would become worthless: getting better guns or upgrading your weapons.
If upgrading was easier than noone would ever want to get weapons, instead everyone would be running with their MK-1 Braton or MK-1 Paris.
The other way around- it would be easier to get new weapon- this means upgrading is worthless.
If both things would be exactly the same, everyone would rather make new, better weapons since you get Mastery Points.

And yes- of course ppl will keep making weapons to get the MR if upgrading was easiest. But the thing is that there will be a lot less will to make new weapons (and lots of hate and flame as well)



BTW it sounds like an idea that was someone else's post mentioned few devstreams ago.

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How about we make cheap weapons be bad and expensive/hard to get weapons be good?

Once we get this out of the way, how about we tweak armour scaling or armour damage reduction?

 

In a game like Warframe, you shouldn't make all guns equally viable. Making all guns in the same tier equally viable is a different issue.

 

Considering weapon categories and various weapon "focuses", we can get hundreds of permutations:

Base damage type (equalized, I/P/S centric, elemental).

Modding archetype (raw output, status, crit)

Weapon type (pistols, shotguns, sniper rifles, assault rifles, submachineguns, DMRs and so on)

 

Then we can mathematically balance magazine sizes, firerates, reload times, damage outputs and whatnot...

 

And all of that in an arbitrary amount of weapon tiers, that have enemy tier equivalent and whatnot.

 

 

But this is pretty much rebuilding weaponry of Warframe from scratch.

Edited by Mofixil
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IMO it's a bad idea since either thing would become worthless: getting better guns or upgrading your weapons.

If upgrading was easier than noone would ever want to get weapons, instead everyone would be running with their MK-1 Braton or MK-1 Paris.

The other way around- it would be easier to get new weapon- this means upgrading is worthless.

If both things would be exactly the same, everyone would rather make new, better weapons since you get Mastery Points.

And yes- of course ppl will keep making weapons to get the MR if upgrading was easiest. But the thing is that there will be a lot less will to make new weapons (and lots of hate and flame as well)

Its better than having 90% of weapons not usable at end game.

MK1 is weaker versions of standard weapons so Tier 4 MK1 will not be better than standard Braton or Paris. And Prime,Wraith,Prisma will have even better stats than standard versions.

Edited by IfritKajiTora
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Its better than having 90% of weapons not usable at end game.

MK1 is weaker versions of standard weapons so Tier 4 MK1 will not be better than standard Braton or Paris. And Prime,Wraith,Prisma will have even better stats than standard versions.

Then what's the point of this idea?

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To make all weapons viable at end game?

I realy like Gorgon, so if this could be added, then I will need 2-3 weapons upgraders to make it Tier4 and be happy to kill enemies at sorties missions. 50-100 level.

Better idea would be to have endgame-ready weapon that is just like Gorgon than making every weapon equally viable.

Heck, creating MK1 Gorgon, MK2 Gorgon, MK3 Gorgon and so on would be an easy way to inflate available mastery points and technically make every weapon endgame viable.

 

I would opt for having endgame viable raw impact-centric hitscan LMG, as it would play theoretically play just like Gorgon without making progression nigh non-existent.

Edited by Mofixil
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Better idea would be to have endgame-ready weapon that is just like Gorgon than making every weapon equally viable.

Heck, creating MK1 Gorgon, MK2 Gorgon, MK3 Gorgon and so on would be an easy way to inflate available mastery points and technically make every weapon endgame viable.

 

I would opt for having endgame viable raw impact-centric hitscan LMG, as it would play theoretically play just like Gorgon without making progression nigh non-existent.

Something like that, maybe with the blueprints needing the previous version of the weapon.

On the other hand a straight and the strongest upgrades to Gorgon is the Supra and/or Soma Prime.

I always treated it as the every next weapon is the upgrade.

Like for example Akvastos are to Aklatos. Or Akstilettos to Akzani. Etc.

We don't really need weapon upgrading. Just weapon balancing.

So that all primes should be equal, all MK-1s etc.

It shouldn't be that some primes are worse than "not-prime weapons" (glaive prime-cerata; Dakra Prime- Broken War)

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so if mk1 braton is x and boltor prime is 10,000x

and judging by your words:

tier 4 mk1 braton is y and tier 4 boltor prime is 10,000y

x=y

unnecessary power-creep-ception

end game lvl will just shift from lvl 100 to lvl 150 and nothing will change

Edited by Pro3Display
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Implying that per-tier jump has to be 10x.

For all I care, it could be 10% more paper DPS coupled with 20% higher cost and it still would make more sense than the random fustercluck we have now.

 

Heck, if we made higher tier weapons actually HARDER to use than trash tier it would balance itself out.

Because, y'know, there's more to balance than paper DPS (or more like, paper DPS is more than firerate*damage).

Edited by Mofixil
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I dont think that would be a good idea bcuz that would mean all weapons are viable and do almoust the same amount of dmg which is ridiculous bcuz you could just buy one gun upgrade it forma it potatoe it max the tier you are talking about and thats it... you got one of the best weapons in the game...

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so if mk1 braton is x and boltor prime is 10,000x

and judging by your words:

tier 4 mk1 braton is y and tier 4 boltor prime is 10,000y

x=y

unnecessary power-creep-ception

end game lvl will just shift from lvl 100 to lvl 150 and nothing will change

MK1 Braton is weapons TIER1  at Tier 4   it will have 60dmg per shot

Braton is weapon TIer 1 too but its better because of faster Fire rate, at Tier 4 this weapon will too have 60 damage per shot

Braton Prime is weapon already Tier 2 because of the damage. At Tier 4 this weapon will have 65 damage per shot  and it already have higher status chance and slightly more critical chance and higher magazine size, so Prime is better at Tier 4 than standard Braton or MK1- braton on Tier 4.

Just to be clear. All Rifles on TIer 4 will have almost the same power as Boltor Prime or Soma/Soma Prime, just some weapons will have little less damage but more status chance or critical chance/critical damage, accuracy, magazine size, reload speed, fire rate and some will have more than 60 damage per shot, but very small status chance or critical chance/critical damage, fire rate or magazine, reload speed, accuracy etc.

Edited by IfritKajiTora
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I dont think that would be a good idea bcuz that would mean all weapons are viable and do almoust the same amount of dmg which is ridiculous bcuz you could just buy one gun upgrade it forma it potatoe it max the tier you are talking about and thats it... you got one of the best weapons in the game...

Yeah but you need High mastery rank, and some pieces of Weapon upgrader, just chose weapon which you like the most and make it the best as you can.

Its better than having 90% of the weapons non usable. I have in my arsenal a lot of weapons that I don't use because it have garbage damage.

My favourite weapon if Gorgon, which is very weak weapon, and I'm not using it, because there is no point, Soma/Soma Prime is not a heavy machine gun, just rifle and somehow have A lot of Ammunition in magazine, very high fire rate like Heavy machine gun Gorgon, and have a lot higher accuracy than gorgon which means I can put heavy caliber to it and get more damage. Just a stupid Rifle Soma beats Heavy machine gun Gorgon in all the way, which have no sense.

And still to get Mastery Rank you need to make weapons and level them up.

Edited by IfritKajiTora
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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm not against weapon upgrades, however I would prefer that it was handled in the following way(or something similar):
@weapons are reorganized in such a way that tiers reflect the difficulty of obtaining the weapon
~example~

Tier0: Weapons obtainable at the beginning of the game and weapons(not weapon blueprints but the actual weapon itself) purchasable for credits in the market.
Tier1: Weapons that have a blueprint purchasable in the market

Tier2: Weapons that require dojo research, a component weapon or are behind a mastery lock as well as the prime version of tier1 weapons
Tier3: Weapons behind an especially steep mastery lock, event weapons, quest weapons, and prime versions of tier2 weapons
Tier4: No weapon starts out in this tier

@weapons in a tier are not necessarily equally powerful to one another but all of them should atleast be viable for a set level of difficulty
@upgrading a weapon moves it into the next tier up, thus making it viable for the next level of difficulty. how it compares to other weapons in that tier may vary
@upgrading a weapon is difficult and doesn't happen very often, it is comparatively easier to just obtain a weapon that is already in the next tier up
@to prevent this from getting out of hand, no weapon can be upgraded past tier 4

this way, players still have incentive to get more/better weapons, but if they find that they like a specific weapon, they have the ability to make it endgame viable if they work hard enough, rather than being forced to use it at lower levels.

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Your idea is essentially the forma system. Go look at all those 8 forma *insert weapon here* videos on Youtube. 

True, but since DE has given the impression that they intend to do away with +damage mods, it will remain to be seen how (in)effective formas become at making a weapon stronger.

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If every weapon in the game were capable of being equal, then there is no incentive to get new weapons.

Some weapons however that completly break your expectations however do exist :

Amphis staff. Mastery rank zero, no special resources. moderate damage, good speed and reach. Holds up well into early end-game

Attica Crossbow: Mastery rank zero, but requires forma and a clan. High per shot damage, reasonable critical, good fire rate. Raw DPS with optimal modding places it at levels nearly comparable with Boltor P, Soma, and others

Dagger / Any. With addition of Covert Lethality mod, daggers have become one of the only viable melee for high level sorties, since they can stealth kill literally anything other then robots, while even a perfect critical shot from the highest weapons will barely scratch them. the 'best'(debatable) dagger being the Karyst due to high base damage and innate toxin type instead of physical, as well as the highest critical stats available for daggers (which is unrealisticly low considering daggers should ALL be critical damage weapons, and many should be puncture instead of slash since daggers are meant for stabbing.)

 

This all boils down to 'But I like weapon _______ but it's too weak'. There are nearly always a similar and higher powered version of this as a solution. There are top end assault rifles, machine guns, bullet hoses like the Soma, Lasers, single shotguns and high capacity shotguns, bows, everything 'low tier' has higher tier equivalents.

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-Snip-

I have to disagree with you on two points: First, I don't think that the ability to make weapons stronger would negate the desire to get more weapons as long as the process of making a weapon stronger was much more difficult/time consuming than going and buying a stronger weapon from the market/dojo. Furthermore, as long as the goal isn't to make all weapons equal, but to make all weapons have the potential to be viable for high level content, there's no real problem.

Second, while I think you're right about guns as far as "every type of weapon has something viable for end game"(though I'm not yet sure about sniper weapons), there are still various types of melee weapons that need more love. Three classes that come to mind immediately are scythes, claws and machetes. To my knowledge, there is no end-game machete weapon, and while I've heard that the anku is a good scythe weapon...the anku is not a proper scythe. As for claws, we just have venka and ripkas. The venka are a bit disappointing, and the ripkas suffer from the same problem that the anku does(it's not really claws, it's more like chainsaws-for-hands).

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