Is The Grind In Warframe Killing The Game?

[Loviam]

Oh I'm sorry! You find me a ftp mmorpg that isn't a grind and I'll accept the whole "too much grind" thing as a logical excuse not to play

[-Blaze-]

Yes, it is too grindy.

 

I don't spent plat on the game but my mate gifted me quite a lot already. If he hadn't done this i basically had nothing! Not much slots. Not much Mods. Not much Weapons.

I don't want to imagine to be a new player now...having basically nothing and needs 3 years to catch up with todays avarage players!

 

I purchased my first Primed Mod last week! After almost 3 YEARS!

 

With the Frost Prime back from Vault (could have grinded him before he was put in Vault :/ ) I already spent 12 T3 Sabotage Keys plus the extra 3 from Keyshare = That makes 48 Void Grinds in ONE SINGLE MISSION and all i got is Loki Helmets abundant!!

So now guess what... i have to grind AGAIN just to get T3 Sabotage Keys so i can go and AGAIN grind the stupid BP

 

And then there is the same for Reaper Prime...i am just glad i have Latron already, but then i probably have to grind it for my brother, because Warframe is making trouble atm on his Laptop.

 

 

 

So to conclude here: It is getting too much

 

I don't have a problem with grinding as long it isn't getting to ridicolous levels.

Edited December 17, 2015 by -Blaze-

[Ishteen]

I don't think you know what grinding means if you think that Nezha can be grinded.

 

My response may be somewhat out of context, but Naftal is correct.

 

The "grind" for Nezha is no grind at all. It is a gamble.

 

Warframes obtained from quests, like Limbo, Mirage, or Chroma, can be seen as "grinds". Why is this? Because you input a certain amount of effort - in the case of Chroma, an arguably significant amount, due to the requirement for the parts of other frames - for a guaranteed reward. Events like the Gradivus Dilemma or False Profit and tactical alerts are also grinds. You may be stuck with running 100 exterminate missions over and over again to pick up a Brakk, but you will absolutely obtain that Brakk by the end of it all.

 

Nezha - and by extension, Ivara, the Void, and drops from bosses - is a gamble. You can input the effort and plow your way through back-to-back spy and defense, but you are not guaranteed a Nezha blueprint - or even something that you actually want (lenses, cores, a piece to a weapon). Even if all the rewards are equally weighted, gambles do not reward skill or even perseverance: that one guy in region might strike gold and pick up all three parts from three separate sorties, while you may never find a helmet without dropping platinum on the Marketplace or in trade chat.

 

This is why I personally take offense to Nezha's presence in the sortie reward table, and perhaps everyone else railing against it is conscious of the same on some level. Some of us may have to run sorties on a regular basis for months just to complete Nezha's build - assuming we are fortunate enough at all.

 

"But wait!" you may interject. "Why do something like that? Just sell some mods or Prime parts or whatever for the platinum to buy what you're missing." And this is a fair response (aside from AM-Bunny's excellent point about the lack of consistency). However, it is a band-aid solution to a system which DE has only expanded upon in the past year - something which many players are increasingly fed up with.

 

And here is one more thing to consider. Several people have pointed out that Nezha is locked behind a time wall, and this is quite significant. Why? In the case of Ivara and the Void (not so much assassins, mind you), one can counter this gamble by running spy missions or T1/2/3/4 whatever over and over again, in effect rerolling the dice however many times necessary to obtain what they want.

 

You cannot, however, rerun sorties. Instead you must wait a full day before trying again. This is no "few hours" of "grinding". This may be a few weeks.

 

Nezha blueprints in the sortie reward tables are (more) acceptable if DE gets rid of the frankly atrocious duplicate reward system and guarantees a separate reward for each separate day. Lengthen sortie cycles to roughly one month and throw game-breaking valuables like legendary cores into a fully randomized, post-table-completion reward system if RNG "balance" is needed. As it stands now, however, the combination of a gamble and a time wall with no ability to "reroll" consistently is simply too much.

[(PSN)Griffin-745]

Aren't the new frames parts tradable anyway?

Why does it matter if you get it now or in a month? I will still be playing this game in a month. If I get something then that I start now then I will feel like I accomplished something.

[AlexCrytek]

You work for it you have it , you want right now you buy it.

[Ishteen]

You work for it you have it , you want right now you buy it.

 

The point is that Nezha's implementation is not work. It is a gamble.

 

Grinding syndicate standing for a Sancti Tigris is work. Downing Sargas Ruk and Lech Kril for parts to craft Chroma is work. Running archwing to stop Fomorians from destroying one of our relays is work.

 

It is not work to finish a sortie string and be arbitrarily rewarded a Nezha Helmet Blueprint, or a Madurai Lens, or a Dera Vandal Barrel.

[GnosticCat]

Nezha blueprints in the sortie reward tables are (more) acceptable if DE gets rid of the frankly atrocious duplicate reward system and guarantees a separate reward for each separate day. Lengthen sortie cycles to roughly one month and throw game-breaking valuables like legendary cores into a fully randomized, post-table-completion reward system if RNG "balance" is needed. As it stands now, however, the combination of a gamble and a time wall with no ability to "reroll" consistently is simply too much.

They would need more then 30 possible rewards otherwise you would get guaranteed legendary core every month. And if you get roll from say 60 or 90 choices, would that be much better than current system? More then 30 choices would mean rewards that veterans would consider possibly even garbage as there is only so much content to put there.

[Ishteen]

They would need more then 30 possible rewards otherwise you would get guaranteed legendary core every month. And if you get roll from say 60 or 90 choices, would that be much better than current system? More then 30 choices would mean rewards that veterans would consider possibly even garbage as there is only so much content to put there.

 

A brief hashing out of what I originally had in mind:

 

Consider this current sortie cycle. Your basic, pre-completion table would have the following:

• 50x R5 Fusion Cores

   

• Exilus Adapter

   

• Nezha Helmet Blueprint

   

• Nezha Chassis Blueprint

   

• Nezha Systems Blueprint

   

• Dera Vandal Barrel

   

• Dera Vandal Receiver

   

• Dera Vandal Stock

   

• Dera Vandal Blueprint

   

• Karak Wraith Barrel

   

• Karak Wraith Receiver

   

• Karak Wraith Stock

   

• Karak Wraith Blueprint

   

• Madurai Lens

   

• Naramon Lens

   

• Varazin Lens

   

• Unairu Lens

   

• Zenurik Lens

As you run through these eighteen sorties, you will earn (and strike off) each individual reward. What you earn on that particular day is up to RNG, but assuming you run sorties eighteen times before the end of the cycle you are guaranteed to pick up whatever it is that you actually want from the list.

 

The remaining twelve to thirteen days will feature a post-completion table:

• 25x R5 Fusion Cores

   

• 50x R5 Fusion Cores

   

• Legendary Core

   

• Exilus Adapter

   

• 4x Forma

   

• Orokin Catalyst Blueprint

   

• Orokin Reactor Blueprint

   

• Madurai Lens

   

• Greater Madurai Lens

   

• Naramon Lens

   

• Greater Naramon Lens

   

• Vazarin Lens

   

• Greater Vazarin Lens

   

• Unairu Lens

   

• Greater Unairu Lens

   

• Zenurik Lens

   

• Greater Zenurik Lens

   

...as well as duplicate Dera Vandal, Karak Wraith, and Nezha blueprints. (All of this is an example, of course.)

 

This table is dictated by RNG; you are not guaranteed to earn everything on this list, and it is entirely possible to get the same reward back-to-back until the end of the cycle. (I imagine legendary cores would also be weighted against you.)

 

There are a couple advantages to a system like this. First, if you really want a Dera Vandal, weren't able to pick up a Karak Wraith from the Tubemen event, or would like to build Nezha as soon as you can, you are guaranteed at least one of each if you run sorties eighteen (or however many) times until you strike everything off the pre-completion table. And second, if you won't always be able to run sorties every single day, you have a time buffer of roughly 12-13 days before the cycle ends to still fill out the table - at the cost of cutting down on your chances to obtain greater lenses, a legendary core, Orokin catalysts and reactors, and additional blueprints to sell or give to your friends.

 

There is some nice potential with sortie reward tables, too. DE could reintroduce anything from old event weapons and mods to vaulted Prime gear, boosters, resource bundles, kubrow breed imprints, stances...there are ways to make the system respectful to players' time while still allowing RNG to dictate what's placed on cycles and post-completion tables.

[(XBOX)Yiazzy]

You accuse many of these posters of naked entitlement and toxicity. Some of them are. I have noticed a few players, however, who have offered well-reasoned arguments grounded in logic - lo and behold, it is you who are being toxic toward them. Objectivity is a virtue.

That I should try to carry a debate with you, even after evidence that you would simply accuse me of the aforementioned qualities, is more than likely a waste of my time. But sure. I'll take on your challenge. Finished my first sortie string after the patch. Madurai Lens. I will also keep track of my active clanmates and record how many sorties they complete before finishing a Nezha build.

Of course I do. Look at the multitude of topics of what can only be frankly described as, whining children. All I see on these forums these days are people whining. Nitain, Focus System, and now Nezha. These people are only happy when there's something to sodding moan about.

Please do take the challenge. I reckon you'll have Nezha a long time before two months have passed.

[Demdemeh]

You guys never played games where items are unobtainable. There some oldschool game which would make you crazy, had you played them 10-15 years ago.

 

What's the grindwall? 10, 20, sometimes 30 attempts to get THAT part you are looking for?

 

Don't forget that trading is part of the game and Plat movements are what the game exists for. No plat = no money to DE = no game.

 

Another good moment to remind you all the game is FREE.

 

If you are in rush just buy the thing you are dying for. It's a matter of 3-4 bucks for most of "expensive" items. Some cosmetics/packs can be expensive but that's another story.

 

I've never been in rush and patience always made me right. Be patient and ask yourself "Do I really desperately need the latest items to actually enjoy the game, or I can keep playing it with what I have and take my time to grind them?"

[Ishteen]

Of course I do. Look at the multitude of topics of what can only be frankly described as, whining children. All I see on these forums these days are people whining. Nitain, Focus System, and now Nezha. These people are only happy when there's something to sodding moan about.

Please do take the challenge. I reckon you'll have Nezha a long time before two months have passed.

 

The way I see it, it's a win-win scenario for me: if I pick up Nezha within a reasonable amount of time (given the sortie system, I would expect at least a week with fairly average luck), then I get to play a frame which will hopefully allow me to make some crazy maneuvers in conjunction with parkour 2.0.

 

And if I don't pick up Nezha within a reasonable amount of time, we'll see where your hubris lands you. For the sake of increased data, I'll even ask my clanmates to pitch in their own post-sortie screenshots.

[(XBOX)Yiazzy]

The way I see it, it's a win-win scenario for me: if I pick up Nezha within a reasonable amount of time (given the sortie system, I would expect at least a week with fairly average luck), then I get to play a frame which will hopefully allow me to make some crazy maneuvers in conjunction with parkour 2.0.

And if I don't pick up Nezha within a reasonable amount of time, we'll see where your hubris lands you. For the sake of increased data, I'll even ask my clanmates to pitch in their own post-sortie screenshots.

That's not a win-win scenario at all. It's a win if you get him quickly like I've said, but if you don't? Then it's a loss for the forums again because it'll just continue the whine fest.

I'll say it slowly and in large letters so you can better understand.

IT'S A FREE GAME. YOU ARE ENTITLED TO NOTHING. EITHER PAY FOR HIM OR STOP COMPLAINING.

[-FireRed-]

The grind killing the game? No.

The grind is MAKING the game.

[SoulSpectre]

I convinced 3 people to play Warframe.

3 of them left. Why?

Take a guess.

Hint: Release Hydroid, Mesa, falling and getting stuck every 15 mins.

[aoguro]

I love warframe and DE. But the grind in Warframe is becoming a little much. For me personally I am accustomed to a little bit of grind, but everyone who I have recommended this game to has left because of the grind and almost unobtainable objects.

DE once said they would reduce the grind, but with the release of NE Zha, I don't see that happening. Equinox and Ivara are both warframes I grinded hours for. People get turned off by that. The new single handed stance mod is practically a myth!

 

Focus is a giant grind that many wouldn't even care to try. 

What do you guys think? Is the grind becoming too much to the point of running players away? Or is the grind fine where it is?

 

i think it keeps it alive beside all the ongoing real-money-investers/investments done by the players/customers which love to do that ... ((^^

[Noseeno]

The grind has only ever been slightly harrowing when there's a time limit for me. Otherwise, no I don't think the grind is killing warframe. Simply take a step back and wonder why you are getting so worked up over something you can do later instead of now. Stop doing those specific missions for one part and go fool around in a mission with some friends. Go hunt for a new player to help. Farming will stress you out if you let it take over you.

[-Dantos-]

I dont think so, if there wasnt anything to work for then I think people would quit. My problem with Nezra is that you CANT grind for him, hes locked behind a timer and RNG, rather than just RNG. In the same way I preferred the Ivara farm over the Mesa farm when she was released, because I was able to keep grinding as much as I could as long as I wanted to.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Vanroe

[Yezzik]

something you can do later instead of now.

 

Well that's wrong for a start.

[Urlan]

I have seen many players disagreeing with the method for obtaining Nezha and the increasing Grind in Warframe but many of those players are not being toxic or entitled by any stretch of the phrases. While it is true that one can see negative opinions to their own as 'spoiled', 'entitled'm or 'whining' even; one must remember that this forum was made for feedback on game changes and developments which the Nezha disagreements are. What isn't useful to debate or as feedback is attacking other players while simply insulting them for having contrary opinions. One might view this as an actual sense of entitlement as what makes one player's opinion so valueable versus another as to try to demean rival players? Course, such things are opinion and frackly off-topic and I digress.

 

Does the observable pattern towards increased Grind seem beneficial to the player? Do the players seem to respond well to Ivara, Mesa, Vauban, Hydroid by beacons, Nitain in general, or Nezha? The easy answer just by the comments here and on Reddit and Steam suggest otherwise and except for a few players, the response has been negative for these developments. This is feedback and its valuable to have - while I think all the players are interested in new developments and new methods of acquisition for those contents - a game that loses its audience through ignoring its user input is doomed to failure no matter how nice the ideas are or how cool the art is.

 

Do I feel the pattern of increasing grind is killing Warframe? In and of itself, no. I have played many games with grindy content, rpgs where starting players might have to kill a common slime thousands of times to buy that first copper sword; committed virtual genocide for glory and pay in strategy games and action games; broke controllers pushing the same buttons over and over doing many of the same taskes every mission just to get a random chance at the real rewards I want. What is important is that such developments are made clear before hand to the player and staff - while it is human nature to want to try everything and have the best gear, free to play games thrive on incentivizing players that feel they need something now versus later - DE claimed to want to reduce grind, which is cool, improving rewards for behaviors while still having lofty goals is a noble endevour but to the perspective of the large playerbase, these promises have not been delivered upon. I feel that while the Grind we have seen is not yet killing the game, reducing player reward while increasing the tedium of the tasks required will eventually push away the large number of players that disagree with this path. I am not the larger playerbase nor or many individual players here, but the large amount of threads on this subject show that the majority of the playerbase feel very strongly about the situation.

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

The grind isn't killing the game, the sense of entitlement some people have is. That being said, let's start with a more basic question:

 

What is considered too much grind? How do you quantify what makes the grind too much? 

 

People see "free to play" and immediately think they can acquire everything in game free. With some games this is true and some not. For the most part DE has made everything (at least play wise) free in game in some sort of way. This doesn't include cosmetics obviously. So, now you can play this game that took time to create, launch, develop, update, and continue to grow for free. 

 

Where do people think the money for all of that comes from? Well, it comes from the players. It comes from those that have the funds to just buy it outright. It comes from those that have more money than time to farm. It comes from those that get tired of trying and buy it. It comes from those that buy it simply to support DE. 

 

So what happens when you reduce the grind too much? Simple, DE doesn't make money which means development stops, updates stop, and eventually the game ends. I always see people say $60 is too much for this or that and I'd rather spend it on another game. Well guess what, most of those games do not continue. You buy, play it, beat it, and then trade it back. Sony, Microsoft, or any other gaming company have your $60 and don't care about the game that much because they have others in the pipeline that will be taking it's place in a few months. Even the big MMO's will see new titles that replace the current version and those companies don't need the funds as much as a free to play because they are established and those titles sell in the millions of dollars world wide. 

 

By comparison DE is a much smaller entity where I'm sure every dollar counts. Why is that? Because they have released their intellectual property as a free to play where just about everything and all content is accessible to anyone for free. I decide to not purchase the latest Call of Duty, they won't even notice. I choose to stop supporting DE, it's probably a much bigger hit to them. Not saying one player makes or breaks DE, just that the income budget is probably much tighter. 

 

I'm not saying that there can not be a better balance, but the grind is there and needs to be. Otherwise we will all be looking for something else to play when DE can no longer afford to upkeep this product. As great as they are about communicating with the community, at the end of the day, it's still a business. And as harsh as some people see it, it takes money to run, not the grind you put in. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

No. IMHO People need to get past their hard-wired need to boat race the game like those "AAA" titles that at best take 40 hrs to complete and at their worst are equivalent to a 6 hour processed sugar high and crash.

That is not Warframe.

Some people also seem to lose perspective on where they are in their journey. The people who complain about grinding are often the first to say "I'm leaving/too easy/boring" when they can power chug everything like it's a Mountain Dew commercial.

Enjoy the journey, and eventually the gear will come.

Or go out into the real world, earn some MR, and spend a little $ and stop acting like DE just robbed your stagecoach because you actually have to time sink for certain things if you don't $.

The nerve of DE! To implement a successful business model! Lol

Edited December 17, 2015 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

still better than the old days where warframe parts is an actual print drop from boss, not from a prize from boss not mission.   

i remember farming out the same jackal node for 3 weeks straight just for rhino part to drop while hopping it not fell off the cliff.

Add to it that the sure drop was not a thing until Nova; back in the day you could run for a frame part, kill the boss and get a resource only...

 

I know it's frustrating, but really some players should have been here 2 or 3 years ago.

[Krymanol]

If games were less grindy, nobody would play a game more than a month or two because you'd achieve everything so quick that people would get bored quickly and move on.   The fact that players love their rewards and achieving goals, making them grind keeps them around playing the game.

 

The grind in games is what keeps a game around long because if we got everything easily, well it's human nature to get bored of something you can get quick and easy.

 
 

[Yazeth]

If games were less grindy, nobody would play a game more than a month or two because you'd achieve everything so quick that people would get bored quickly and move on. The fact that players love their rewards and achieving goals, making them grind keeps them around playing the game.

The grind in games is what keeps a game around long because if we got everything easily, well it's human nature to get bored of something you can get quick and easy.

It's also human nature to get bored repeating the same thing over time with little reward.

[Kutya7701]

My gf and I were just discussing that and we both agreed that it's becoming to much. We cant count how many spy missions we've farmed and only have two parts since the release. Same for the frost prime chassis, just endless farming.

 

Uhh, you know you get different parts of Ivara from different levels of spy missions, right ? Like >25 is bp and helm 25-15 is chassis <15 is systems ?