Is The Grind In Warframe Killing The Game?

[Kutya7701]

The grind isn't killing the game, the sense of entitlement some people have is. That being said, let's start with a more basic question:

 

What is considered too much grind? How do you quantify what makes the grind too much? 

 

People see "free to play" and immediately think they can acquire everything in game free. With some games this is true and some not. For the most part DE has made everything (at least play wise) free in game in some sort of way. This doesn't include cosmetics obviously. So, now you can play this game that took time to create, launch, develop, update, and continue to grow for free. 

 

Where do people think the money for all of that comes from? Well, it comes from the players. It comes from those that have the funds to just buy it outright. It comes from those that have more money than time to farm. It comes from those that get tired of trying and buy it. It comes from those that buy it simply to support DE. 

 

So what happens when you reduce the grind too much? Simple, DE doesn't make money which means development stops, updates stop, and eventually the game ends. I always see people say $60 is too much for this or that and I'd rather spend it on another game. Well guess what, most of those games do not continue. You buy, play it, beat it, and then trade it back. Sony, Microsoft, or any other gaming company have your $60 and don't care about the game that much because they have others in the pipeline that will be taking it's place in a few months. Even the big MMO's will see new titles that replace the current version and those companies don't need the funds as much as a free to play because they are established and those titles sell in the millions of dollars world wide. 

 

By comparison DE is a much smaller entity where I'm sure every dollar counts. Why is that? Because they have released their intellectual property as a free to play where just about everything and all content is accessible to anyone for free. I decide to not purchase the latest Call of Duty, they won't even notice. I choose to stop supporting DE, it's probably a much bigger hit to them. Not saying one player makes or breaks DE, just that the income budget is probably much tighter. 

 

I'm not saying that there can not be a better balance, but the grind is there and needs to be. Otherwise we will all be looking for something else to play when DE can no longer afford to upkeep this product. As great as they are about communicating with the community, at the end of the day, it's still a business. And as harsh as some people see it, it takes money to run, not the grind you put in. 

To be fair, I think most people aren't complaining about the grind that's there, they're complaining about how the grind is being increased further.

 

We used to be able to farm the 3 parts of a frame from a boss as many times as you wanted, then those parts became locked behind a key which we had to wait for invasions to get and we didn't mind too much, then 3 parts became 8 for one of the new warframes, and now they're locking it behind a once every 24 hour 3 high level mission sortie for just a chance at one of the parts.

 

Getting one try at farming a frame every 24 hours is nuts, especially when you consider the fact that you can get duplicates. Sure, with Mesa you also had to wait for mutalist nav coordinates, but you could at least keyshare so you got 4 runs for the price of one, effectively rewarding social interaction and teamwork with other players.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Kutya7701

[CorporateClone]

People on this thread complaining about Nezha in the Sortie never had to farm Volt and Banshee BEFORE they were available in the Tenno lab.  Now that was grind-centric.  Or running 40 minute Survival in the Void for Prime parts and being rewarded 1000 credits.  Warframe grinding is cake now to what it was a couple years ago.  

[Hayzemet]

I would usually say - no it isn't- because currently i guess that Nezah's parts wont be as expensive on the trade chat and so on, 2 weeks should be the maximum amount of time required to get all of Nezah's parts, by playing sorties only. By trading it should be less, but we all know there is always that one part that is much more rare, we'll see. Anyway as I was saying, I really do not care about grind, because I grind enough irl, so I just do not have time to play to get, so I pay for it and it didn't bother me until yesterday (nezah, skin bundle, focus changes etc...).  Its seems like they are worsening it on purpose  sigh... they really must have a horrible marketing team, or they are just getting too greedy, and I really hope they wake up before its too late.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Hayzemet

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

To be fair, I think most people aren't complaining about the grind that's there, they're complaining about how the grind is being increased further.

 

We used to be able to farm the 3 parts of a frame from a boss as many times as you wanted, then those parts became locked behind a key which we had to wait for invasions to get and we didn't mind too much, then 3 parts became 8 for one of the new warframes, and now they're locking it behind a once every 24 hour 3 high level mission sortie for just a chance at one of the parts.

 

Getting one try at farming a frame every 24 hours is nuts, especially when you consider the fact that you can get duplicates. Sure, with Mesa you also had to wait for mutalist nav coordinates, but you could at least keyshare so you got 4 runs for the price of one, effectively rewarding social interaction and teamwork with other players.

 

I can't speak for DE, but I think (and can only assess from a distance until it hits consoles) that DE is not necessarily trying to increase the grind but trying to diversify it. It's something different, it's not the void, and it's a change. Maybe not the direction the players are as excited about, but I think that may be the reasoning for some of the changes like this frame and the Nitain. Something different to break up the type of grinding I guess. 

 

Granted, this diversification technically has lengthened the grind as well which has produced the concern so many players are expressing. It is a balancing act for sure. There has to be some to ensure income for the company, but too much means at some point veterans leave and those are people that you no longer have advocating your game to newer players. I think at least integrating some kind of player by player filtering system would help a little. Something that says if you already have a part, the next one to drop is not that part. I'm sure that is a ton of coding, but at least you wouldn't have people with seven of everything but the one piece they need to actually build the frame.

Edited December 17, 2015 by (PS4)CowboyJeff72

[Cabadath5]

Despite what some people on these forums (hint: the same people that make a thanks DE thread every week) say, yes it is.

 

DE always claimed they wanted to lessen the grind but:

-Frame obtainable only from sorties

-Nerfs to stealth because it was a viable method to acquire focus xp

-"Alertium"? I mean come on it doesn't get more blanant than that.

 

Not to mention the constantly bloating void pool and how they initially mentioned that the new map will fix the void loot table issue, only to have them say that they are thinking about how not to make it "too easy" to get prime stuff in a following stream.

 

The problem is that if we at least had some guaranteed tokens for void or sorties things would get a lot better. I'd rather do 20 void missions of the same type and then be allowed to choose something than roll the dice 20 times and get only junk that you can trade for more junk from baro. The grind itself would be fine but the RNG is what trully puts the game down and is turning it more and more into a p2w.

 

Also if I were you, I'd avoid discussing such subjects on the official forums. Not only will you get boo'd at by the DE fanatics but there is a good change the thread will get locked.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Cabadath5

[Coaa]

I don't get it. If you take away the grind of the game, what is left to do? Seriously, what is left to go for? What is the point of playing this game at all? If we could just easily get everything with say, small amounts of credits?

 

There would literally be nothing left to do. This entire game revolves around grinding for that mod you need, cores to level it, parts to build this, parts for that, parts to sell for plats, void spamming for ducats.

 

These topics boggle my mind, if you completely take the grind out of this game, you have nothing left to do at all. You can't even say do the raids or something, because people do those to grind for....arcanes.

[Sunfaiz]

"Year of quality"

 

I remember when Steve said that, we were all happy and excited. They've made a lot of good things, except reducing the grind.

I  bet he's regretted saying that, Countless times !

[Yazeth]

I bet he's regretted saying that, Countless times !

I kinda think that DE is just getting a head start on 2016 - the Year of Grind.

Don't hate me.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Yazeth

[(PSN)Tenchi145]

Those of you throwing around the word entitled I feel that you do not know what that means. The people complaining about the grind have a technically been very detailed in their responses about how unfair it is and all I've literally read from most of the grind supporters is throw plat at the screen.

This really sucks because I have no ideas that are different from those that are already mentioned above. Grinding for frost prime chassis is my current objective. Yet I've blown through 11 keys only to recieve 2 ash prime bp which I didn't need, bo prime bps out the wazu, and bs other rewards. No chassis no reaper prime just other bs. Unlike other prime gear I have till Jan. To get him, but the grind is bs. Sure I could buy him, but I've been trying to hawk an Ash Prime set and an Ash Prime BP for afound 5 days to no avail.

The burnout of just grinding for no real reward is really disheartening because these aren't just 10-20 min missions, especially not sorties, being a f2p is no excuse od even a blanket for this level of excessive grind. I started this game in late march and currently have every frame to date on console, but I put in work for them even with a metered sat connection in the daytime, grinding out difficult missions late at night once I'm unmetered. Also I've purchased my fair share of plat, but I am not about to support the fact of being inconvenienced to the point of seeing plat as a end to the unfairness because at that point this game becomes like that Kkm Kardashian game and if you have money you can move ahead. Hard work isn't being rewarded in this game at all and to throw that we are just whining for the sake of whining is the dumbest argument I've ever heard considering we give reasons and examples of an unfair and unforgiving system. Each new grinding element for new things pushes me away from this game because after 15+runs of the same mission, especially one where I have to wait until rotation C, is just too much.

[Cubewano]

I can't speak for DE, but I think (and can only assess from a distance until it hits consoles) that DE is not necessarily trying to increase the grind but trying to diversify it. It's something different, it's not the void, and it's a change. Maybe not the direction the players are as excited about, but I think that may be the reasoning for some of the changes like this frame and the Nitain. Something different to break up the type of grinding I guess. 

 

Granted, this diversification technically has lengthened the grind as well which has produced the concern so many players are expressing. It is a balancing act for sure. There has to be some to ensure income for the company, but too much means at some point veterans leave and those are people that you no longer have advocating your game to newer players. I think at least integrating some kind of player by player filtering system would help a little. Something that says if you already have a part, the next one to drop is not that part. I'm sure that is a ton of coding, but at least you wouldn't have people with seven of everything but the one piece they need to actually build the frame.

I believe most players can respect trying to be creative or introducing new methods to shake things up, but the methods de tries seem to always be downright terrible. everything i've seen this year if it isn't introducing more rng, is introducing more time walls, or more resource walls, it is just extremely difficult to think the increased grind is not intentional when every move they make increases it. in fact the methods they've tried, which implications in the game are obvious for anyone who puts a minutes thought into it, also makes it hard to believe these downsides are not fully intended. that or de genuinely doesn't care enough to think how players are affected in the mildest. 

 

and its also understood that de needs to make a profit, but this whole surmounting grind dilemma has only really started to flare up this year, which makes it difficult to believe that is the conflict seeing as the game was going strong for the last two years at least without budget issues (they also just got their game into china which means they just gained a brand new source of revenue as well). Also, this is more a matter of opinion, but is it not odd that de (assuming this is a money thing) would go the route of increasing grind to gain funds instead of going the more positive route most games go for cash, which is cosmetics? It just seems like a bad practice, and I don't think a bitter customer is more likely to spend cash either which makes it seem all the more unpleasant since its less effective too. 

 

i just don't think i can see a positive to this i suppose? i mean people burnout far too regularly from this game already, and this direction is just worsening that case, the lack of sincerity to the community is making others lose hope for this game, and more and more people seem hesitant to put their money into this game because the reasons behind their purchases are becoming less and less pleasant. so it isn't increasing the player base, isn't increasing sales, isn't improving the gaming experience, so what is it doing? 

[GnosticCat]

I believe most players can respect trying to be creative or introducing new methods to shake things up, but the methods de tries seem to always be downright terrible. everything i've seen this year if it isn't introducing more rng, is introducing more time walls, or more resource walls, it is just extremely difficult to think the increased grind is not intentional when every move they make increases it. in fact the methods they've tried, which implications in the game are obvious for anyone who puts a minutes thought into it, also makes it hard to believe these downsides are not fully intended. that or de genuinely doesn't care enough to think how players are affected in the mildest. 

 

and its also understood that de needs to make a profit, but this whole surmounting grind dilemma has only really started to flare up this year, which makes it difficult to believe that is the conflict seeing as the game was going strong for the last two years at least without budget issues (they also just got their game into china which means they just gained a brand new source of revenue as well). Also, this is more a matter of opinion, but is it not odd that de (assuming this is a money thing) would go the route of increasing grind to gain funds instead of going the more positive route most games go for cash, which is cosmetics? It just seems like a bad practice, and I don't think a bitter customer is more likely to spend cash either which makes it seem all the more unpleasant since its less effective too. 

 

i just don't think i can see a positive to this i suppose? i mean people burnout far too regularly from this game already, and this direction is just worsening that case, the lack of sincerity to the community is making others lose hope for this game, and more and more people seem hesitant to put their money into this game because the reasons behind their purchases are becoming less and less pleasant. so it isn't increasing the player base, isn't increasing sales, isn't improving the gaming experience, so what is it doing? 

Can you provide statistics that it isn't increasing player base, sales and gaming experience? If you don't have this information why do you state it it as fact? I would think that DE has information on all of these and would know better if this is working for them or no.

Are there really free to play games that are financed only by cosmetics without any grind at all?

[Noseeno]

Well that's wrong for a start.

 

Unless you're talking about sortie then I do not understand what you mean and still you only do Sortie once a day. Considering if you don't manage to get a Nezha part there is the option to buy from the market or trade for the parts with other players. Even a player who gets parts of Nezha they don't need may be able to sell/trade them for the parts they do need. For doing a Sortie once a day, I really won't consider it grinding. Yes, you are rolling a dice daily for three missions of work but it's not too repetitive and not something you immerse yourself in hours to no avail. As Ishteen said it is a daily gamble. There is grind but the burnout is preventable by the player. Take a break if you need it.

[Cubewano]

Can you provide statistics that it isn't increasing player base, sales and gaming experience? If you don't have this information why do you state it it as fact? I would think that DE has information on all of these and would know better if this is working for them or no.

Are there really free to play games that are financed only by cosmetics without any grind at all?

I wasn't attempting to pass off any of what I said as fact, its just my opinion and my observations, which is all any of us can go on since we don't have DEs numbers and we likely aren't getting them. So instead of trying to use something unobtainable to both of us as a means of rejecting my opinion, why not explain to me how you think these changes are positive?

 

And I didn't say these others games had no grind, but i haven't experienced any other mmo-esque games that relies so eagerly on increasing their grind to make revenue, which seems to be the route de is vouching for. This stir isn't about getting rid of grinding, everyone knows there needs to be some grind, it is that the grind is getting out of hand, just as you can have too little of something you can also have too much, and that's where this game is heading. 

Edited December 17, 2015 by Cubewano

[AcquisCommunitaire]

I believe most players can respect trying to be creative or introducing new methods to shake things up, but the methods de tries seem to always be downright terrible. everything i've seen this year if it isn't introducing more rng, is introducing more time walls, or more resource walls, it is just extremely difficult to think the increased grind is not intentional when every move they make increases it. in fact the methods they've tried, which implications in the game are obvious for anyone who puts a minutes thought into it, also makes it hard to believe these downsides are not fully intended. that or de genuinely doesn't care enough to think how players are affected in the mildest. 

 

and its also understood that de needs to make a profit, but this whole surmounting grind dilemma has only really started to flare up this year, which makes it difficult to believe that is the conflict seeing as the game was going strong for the last two years at least without budget issues (they also just got their game into china which means they just gained a brand new source of revenue as well). Also, this is more a matter of opinion, but is it not odd that de (assuming this is a money thing) would go the route of increasing grind to gain funds instead of going the more positive route most games go for cash, which is cosmetics? It just seems like a bad practice, and I don't think a bitter customer is more likely to spend cash either which makes it seem all the more unpleasant since its less effective too. 

 

i just don't think i can see a positive to this i suppose? i mean people burnout far too regularly from this game already, and this direction is just worsening that case, the lack of sincerity to the community is making others lose hope for this game, and more and more people seem hesitant to put their money into this game because the reasons behind their purchases are becoming less and less pleasant. so it isn't increasing the player base, isn't increasing sales, isn't improving the gaming experience, so what is it doing? 

 

I cannot agree more. DE has to realise that money derived from increasing grind is subject to the law on diminishing returns. And indeed it is not infrequent that going past a certain point would yield negative returns.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

I haven't even gotten Nezha yet because I'm console but yeah after reading up on how to obtain Nezha, I'd have to say this is not headed in the right direction especially considering DE has said they don't want to increase the grind.

[YasaiTsume]

Focus should be balanced and thats about it.

Nezha is a complete mess. Never have I even imagined Nezha to drop from Sorties.

It is just garbage that a Warframe should be dropped this way. 

Hell, even if Nezha dropped from Rare containers is an infinity better than dropping from Sorties, since Sorties are actually tough content meant to challenge players, not to wall them away from a frame. 

Notice how first season rewards were all Exclusives / Components for Lenses, but yu throw a Warframe inside, it is gonna make people think that Nezha will be here and gone in 15 days and it is just not healthy to rile people up this way.

 

Right now, Nezha is walled behind RNG and some amount of challenge, I only shudder to imagine what future beckons.

[crafturtoemc]

stop whining about the grind..just go play abit of heroes and general / war thunder then you know what real grind is.. 

[CrazyCatLad]

Focus is a giant grind that many wouldn't even care to try. 

In all fairness though, Focus isn't meant to be grinded.

 

Getting lens (without buying or before they were on the market) was grinding and I didn't get any until the Greater Lens' showed up on the market.  Very stupid to have lens locked behind sorties only.

[GnosticCat]

I wasn't attempting to pass off any of what I said as fact, its just my opinion and my observations, which is all any of us can go on since we don't have DEs numbers and we likely aren't getting them. So instead of trying to use something unobtainable to both of us as a means of rejecting my opinion, why not explain to me how you think these changes are positive?

 

And I didn't say these others games had no grind, but i haven't experienced any other mmo-esque games that relies so eagerly on increasing their grind to make revenue, which seems to be the route de is vouching for. This stir isn't about getting rid of grinding, everyone knows there needs to be some grind, it is that the grind is getting out of hand, just as you can have too little of something you can also have too much, and that's where this game is heading. 

Ok, that's fine I was being unreasonable. In my mind main positive part is that this is different from usual frame acquiring, change is not bad. You can run spy missions to get spy frame and you have frame from high end mission that is not yet another void run. Both don't require that you run same tilesets to farm them, For spy missions you can change them as you wish within level range and sorties have different missions. I also feel that it is more time wall increase rather than grind for for Nezha.

 

Sorry not much experience on mmo front, but what I have observed none relies on cosmetics alone, at least for long, I don't think it is sustainable. Also many people have said that usual mmos have quite heavy grind compared to warframe. Someone with more experience can correct me if I am wrong.

[ToeSama]

stop whining about the grind..just go play abit of heroes and general / war thunder then you know what real grind is.. 

 

This is never a valid argument. The grind or lack thereof in other games is irrelevant to what is happening in Warframe. What is happening in Warframe regarding Warframe's grind or lack thereof is though. Do not confuse the way another game handles it's content to be the way this game should.

[Raxchels]

I wish the other games I play had Warframes RNG. would make mount farming in wow so much easier, make getting weapons and good stuff from TF2 crates a lot less of a pain. De's RNG I light compared to most free to play or bought games. yes some of there RNG needs work but nothing to the extent that most people are saying. DE need this RNG to not only keep making money, also so they can make content for players.

 

The whole. OMG I is going take me more then one day to get the new warframe, there is too much RNG. really needs to tone down.

 

And yes it has been a little over a week since the update so what, how do we know that de didn't make this the way it is because it is meant to last a month or two to get all the content.

 

The player that complain about to much RNG will be the first to say there is nothing to do when it is easier to get stuff. thus De cant win no mater what they do some people wont be happy.

 

[GnosticCat]

In all fairness though, Focus isn't meant to be grinded.

 

Getting lens (without buying or before they were on the market) was grinding and I didn't get any until the Greater Lens' showed up on the market.  Very stupid to have lens locked behind sorties only.

Why stupid? They have items that people desire set behind missions that can be done daily. This would retain players that otherwise just blast through content and wait for next update. Or am I getting this wrong?

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

i just don't think i can see a positive to this i suppose? i mean people burnout far too regularly from this game already, and this direction is just worsening that case, the lack of sincerity to the community is making others lose hope for this game, and more and more people seem hesitant to put their money into this game because the reasons behind their purchases are becoming less and less pleasant. so it isn't increasing the player base, isn't increasing sales, isn't improving the gaming experience, so what is it doing? 

 

And I agree with your assessment. While it did diversify the grind, it also increased it. This is not a good thing. But it just points to my original post in where I asked, "what is too much grind?" and "how do you quantify it?". I think most of us agree that there has to be some sort of "grind" for the benefit of the game whether it be economics or to keep players playing longer as they have more long term goals to achieve. But how much is too much and where do you draw the line? What can be put in place to either reduce it and still make a profit or make it so that RNG doesn't send players into controller throwing rages? 

 

It's obvious that it can't go the other way either or the game becomes too easy, where everyone can acquire everything without the need for plat at all which puts DE in a bind to continue to make improvements as they have dwindling income to fund such things. 

 

It's definitely a catch 22 no matter how they decide to implement it. Finding the right balance is not going to be easy, but it is definitely something that needs serious attention.

[CrazyCatLad]

Why stupid? They have items that people desire set behind missions that can be done daily. This would retain players that otherwise just blast through content and wait for next update. Or am I getting this wrong?

Sorties are RNG and artificial difficult (though still easy).

 

A repeatable and challenging LORE quest would be so much more enjoyable that gives Lens.  Hell, you can even throw in the random parameters from sorties such as eximus stronghold or higher armor.  Level 100 enemies not necessary.

 

(Daily repeatable or tri-weekly or something. Most people have over 50 weapons and over 20 frames so it would take months to get a lens for everything assuming you don't overwrite the lens or wait to craft a Greater lens)

 

 

EDITED typos and added the stuff in parentheses

Edited December 17, 2015 by Lanieu

[ToeSama]

And yes it has been a little over a week since the update so what, how do we know that de didn't make this the way it is because it is meant to last a month or two to get The player that complain about to much RNG will be the first to say there is nothing to do when it is easier to get stuff. thus De cant win no mater what they do some people wont be happy.

 

I've never understood this concept. Why would someone acquire the content and then not play with it? What is the sense behind grinding/purchasing something and then never using it? It's one thing if it was something they simply came into possession of by random chance while not trying for it, and simply work on it to raise MR, but to actively work for an item, finish it, and then complain about it and not do anything instead of playing with the item in question is just a stupidity.

 

Honestly, I'd like the grind to improve so that I have MORE things to do. Hunting to get the items I want can be rough sometimes, and trading plat has become the more viable method of getting what I'm after anymore. It sucks that I have to play the market instead of the game just to make any headway in my efforts.