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tripletriple

Is The Grind In Warframe Killing The Game?

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sortie rewards are just pure crap.. nothin usefull but legendary core (that is only myth like vengeful revenant from Conculists).. i can see myself 14 days later with 1000 R5 cores and not a single nezha part.. gg

 

You just sound like you had bad luck. People are selling legendary cores in trade chat right now. Those cores you got will be eventually needed as well.

 

And there are other ways of getting Nezha if you don't want to test your luck in Sorties. Hit the void. 275 plat isn't hard to get.

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Doing a daily to try to get something doesn't exactly sound like grind.  I'm not going to get burned out on it, because it's something I can casually do.  Same with Nitain.  

 

The original Hydroid hunt, that was grind.  This is just something I'll get eventually, which I feel how a good many people will react to it.  Plus it's tradable.  This will be one of those whole thing for 35 plat down the line things.  Just be patient. 

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Sorties are RNG and artificial difficult (though still easy).

 

A repeatable and challenging LORE quest would be so much more enjoyable that gives Lens.  Hell, you can even throw in the random parameters from sorties such as eximus stronghold or higher armor.  Level 100 enemies not necessary.

 

(Daily repeatable or tri-weekly or something. Most people have over 50 weapons and over 20 frames so it would take months to get a lens for everything assuming you don't overwrite the lens or wait to craft a Greater lens)

 

 

EDITED typos and added the stuff in parentheses

How do you create challenging quest for warframes with such powers that make AI useless? Make them all nullifiers with sapper drones? Custom design challenges for 20+ frames with more coming all time?

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Ok, that's fine I was being unreasonable. In my mind main positive part is that this is different from usual frame acquiring, change is not bad. You can run spy missions to get spy frame and you have frame from high end mission that is not yet another void run. Both don't require that you run same tilesets to farm them, For spy missions you can change them as you wish within level range and sorties have different missions. I also feel that it is more time wall increase rather than grind for for Nezha.

 

Sorry not much experience on mmo front, but what I have observed none relies on cosmetics alone, at least for long, I don't think it is sustainable. Also many people have said that usual mmos have quite heavy grind compared to warframe. Someone with more experience can correct me if I am wrong.

I don't take issue with change, change is fine, change is good, especially in a game like warframe where repetition is a pretty big issue, but the method of change de is using, is it really the best they can offer? as others have noted, it does add variety, but it also comes with this unnecessary grind that has only been getting larger and larger with each of these proposed changes. With wukong they added a rng wall that relied solely on dumb luck and could not be actively worked towards, Ivara suffered from being in a too large reward pool (making obtaining her not only super repetitive but very rng), and with Nezha they have mixed the two by making him part of a dilluted reward pool that can only be ran a limited time a day. There's no sense that DE can't try new methods of obtaining frames that come without all these consequences. And perhaps grind isn't the best term for the problems with Nezha, but it is part of the issue, and the time wall to boot exacerbates it. 

 

And that's all fine, I've been leaning off mmo's more and more these years (warframe is that genres saving grace atm for me, even with how things are going currently) but from all my past experiences mmos have always seemed to put a pretty decent focus on their cosmetics, which I can only assume is because it nets the most cash. Of course they have other means of income as well, but those methods aren't so different from what warframe already has, being able to buy resources or game bonuses for cash, potions, pets, etc, convenience things, just general luxury items that ease play. It isn't their only source, but its the primary one.

 

I haven't played many games that would be labeled excessively grindy myself so I can't really attest to other games having even worse grind, but that doesn't change the unpleasant nature of obtaining things in warframe at times, and if it isn't a matter of the game being too grindy then its a matter of the methods of grinding that is the issue. I played WoW for a good while when I was younger, and while I don't know if that game was ever considered excessively grindy, I do remember grinding for all sorts of loot that had pretty low drop chance (fractions of percents) and never feeling the frustration I feel sometimes with grinding things on warframe. 

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How do you create challenging quest for warframes with such powers that make AI useless? Make them all nullifiers with sapper drones? Custom design challenges for 20+ frames with more coming all time?

 

Level 100 Butchers are as useless as Level 1 Butchers.

 

 

Some general suggestions to increase difficulty without endlessly buffing enemy armor...

 

-At level 15, some additional soldiers will spawn with an energy/shield that is partially vulnerable to punch through but mitigates all types of directional or power damage.  

-Melee enemies can run faster and dodge a little better at level 15+

-At level 25, some melee soldiers will throw their weapon to hurt us while run towards or around us to flank us etc.  (Better AI behavior and strategy)

-Infested on the walls and ceilings. Infested growths on the walls and ceilings will sling sludge or whip ya.

-Enemies will throw traps on the ceilings/walls during skirmishes (arc traps, proximity mines, poison bombs etc)

-Some soldiers at higher levels will use a healing shot and regain health a la Quick Thinking.

-Corpus can rig their shield packs to blow upon death.

-Better stealth detection technology (and I'm a Loki P user!) on higher levels.

-Teleporting Grineer will teleport behind you, smack you and then teleport behind a Sensor Bar door or behind a bombard with shield lancers in position.

-Shield Lancers will have a magnetic shield wall ability at higher levels and will sort of act as a mitigating wall that you'll actually fear approaching head on as you usually would. And they'll have less crude shields at higher levels.

 

 

And that's just five-ten minutes of brainstorm that would increase difficulty without bumping an enemy unit to 100 and calling it a challenge.

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When I hear people having to do spy missions 100+ times to get all the parts for that frame, that is something I'm not going to do, since spy more is my least favorite mode because:

 

1) If you mess up once, the odds of getting the rare item lowers significantly

2) If you play in a group, someone will always mess up doing a spy, and I play this game to play in groups.

3) The amount of time needed to do the three caches is, without being seen, without tripping something, pretty much means I have to play as loki if I'm going to get even a chance of the high tier rewards

4) I might play these more if I had Ivara, but I actually have to play these missions repeatedly to get Ivara, so by the time I get Ivara, I will never want to play this game type anymore.

 

So, Ivara I will buy with plat.  I can live with playing sorties to get Nezha.  If I don't get it eventually, there will be way too many parts out there and would be able to get it on the cheap.  In either case with this one though, the cost of buying the parts should never go what it would be in the market minus 40 plat, otherwise, you're better off just getting it off the market.  I'm sure the community will make up their own price of what it should be once everyone has ton of parts in the coming months.

 

Warframe is pretty much all grind though, so it's odd to see what to complain about.  You either grid away for an item or pay to get it from a player or DE.  It's not like we have an open world end game or something to keep on futzing around with. 

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First I think we need to define what a grind is. Doing the sorties once a day that usually take no longer than an hour to complete is not a grind. I think the bigger problem is that most people can't get a frame and one day like they can most others. Now look at this from DEs perspective say it takes one to two months to create a frame and then all the players have it on release day or are in the process of building it. So now they have spent all this time and effort for it to be done in a day and they know most people will level up the frame and then be done with it and go back to playing the other frames they have or like better.

I could understand the complaint if there weren't many frames in the game or if the other ones were really hard to get or even if this frame was required to complete any new content. I mean just look at the second dream quest how many man hours do you think took to do that in most people completed it within a couple of hours. There has to be some kind of incentive to play a free to play game especially when you have people basically bragging about how they've spent no money like they are sticking it to the man or something which only hurts a game they seem to like or at least enough to post about it. And on top of that they post on the forums about how the game is terrible it's been ruined and their quitting. That is not constructive criticism that is what I would call whining and being entitled.

Ask for the focus it is right on your screen that it is in better. And there's some good strong stuff in it. It seems that idea was for you to run a lens and as you do different content or grinding as some put it you gain focus I don't think they intended for somebody to get max focuse within 30 minutes.

And haven't they released three frames with in like a month and a half or maybe 2 months how many songs do you see running around? This idea that you should have everything on release day and that the game is b******* if you can't get all the focus all the reputation all the time everytime that nobody is forcing you to do in at the same time you know it's a free to play game and there is a reason why things take a little bit not even mention the fact that it adds a sense of accomplishment. And yes you do see a lot of forums a post about it but if you notice the forms mostly contain people complaining or what some people may call feedback which it seems they contain very little actual feedback but this is because upset people tend to want to be heard a little more I doubt this is the majority at any case or at least not for the people that probably actually support the game and understand the model behind it.

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at the beginning, warframe don play this stupide grind game style. Snif..

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Level 100 Butchers are as useless as Level 1 Butchers.

 

 

Some general suggestions to increase difficulty without endlessly buffing enemy armor...

 

-At level 15, some additional soldiers will spawn with an energy/shield that is partially vulnerable to punch through but mitigates all types of directional or power damage.  

-Melee enemies can run faster and dodge a little better at level 15+

-At level 25, some melee soldiers will throw their weapon to hurt us while run towards or around us to flank us etc.  (Better AI behavior and strategy)

-Infested on the walls and ceilings. Infested growths on the walls and ceilings will sling sludge or whip ya.

-Enemies will throw traps on the ceilings/walls during skirmishes (arc traps, proximity mines, poison bombs etc)

-Some soldiers at higher levels will use a healing shot and regain health a la Quick Thinking.

-Corpus can rig their shield packs to blow upon death.

-Better stealth detection technology (and I'm a Loki P user!) on higher levels.

-Teleporting Grineer will teleport behind you, smack you and then teleport behind a Sensor Bar door or behind a bombard with shield lancers in position.

-Shield Lancers will have a magnetic shield wall ability at higher levels and will sort of act as a mitigating wall that you'll actually fear approaching head on as you usually would. And they'll have less crude shields at higher levels.

 

 

And that's just five-ten minutes of brainstorm that would increase difficulty without bumping an enemy unit to 100 and calling it a challenge.

 

Basically all of that can be cheesed just like our level 100 enemies can though.

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Nah. It's what the game is all about.

 

As long as the majority of players feel the returns are justified, that is.

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Basically all of that can be cheesed just like our level 100 enemies can though.

Would a Butcher that throws an axe at your face while charging faster than they do now not be more difficult than a Butcher that meanders slowly toward you with the slowest attack speed possible?

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it all comes down to perspective, if you think about it all games are a grind ne it for parts in warframe , your presious kdr in cod or even the perfect gun in fall out 4 there is grind in everything.

 

as for it killing the game to some people yes it is they don't have the time to run sorties every day for nezha parts or grind tyl reagor for equinox, and that's fine. There are people who do as well.

 

nezha's placement is what has a lot of people upset at the moment and with time he will probably get put somewhere else.

as for focus lets be honest here did it or did it not just come out. Its still teething and needs to have a chance to grow, give it time and it will become a decent system just needs a bit of help from both the dev's and the community to mold it into something great.

 

also to address people saying that De lied to them about a year of quality.

they delivered it pretty damn well the new content the frames new tile sets new mechanics new weapons the ever increasing quality of the look of prime frames and gear. That's been a quality year too me.

yes grind is there yes it increase with more content how else are you gonna get it (free handouts?).

 

take the game for what it is the best space ninja parkor symulaton around

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Level 100 Butchers are as useless as Level 1 Butchers.

 

 

Some general suggestions to increase difficulty without endlessly buffing enemy armor...

 

-At level 15, some additional soldiers will spawn with an energy/shield that is partially vulnerable to punch through but mitigates all types of directional or power damage.  

-Melee enemies can run faster and dodge a little better at level 15+

-At level 25, some melee soldiers will throw their weapon to hurt us while run towards or around us to flank us etc.  (Better AI behavior and strategy)

-Infested on the walls and ceilings. Infested growths on the walls and ceilings will sling sludge or whip ya.

-Enemies will throw traps on the ceilings/walls during skirmishes (arc traps, proximity mines, poison bombs etc)

-Some soldiers at higher levels will use a healing shot and regain health a la Quick Thinking.

-Corpus can rig their shield packs to blow upon death.

-Better stealth detection technology (and I'm a Loki P user!) on higher levels.

-Teleporting Grineer will teleport behind you, smack you and then teleport behind a Sensor Bar door or behind a bombard with shield lancers in position.

-Shield Lancers will have a magnetic shield wall ability at higher levels and will sort of act as a mitigating wall that you'll actually fear approaching head on as you usually would. And they'll have less crude shields at higher levels.

 

 

And that's just five-ten minutes of brainstorm that would increase difficulty without bumping an enemy unit to 100 and calling it a challenge.

Still haven't answered my question. How that will help when hit by irradiating disarm and molecular prime? They are so smart now, it is just pity they have no weapons and can't move.

Better stealth detection was added (enemies alerted by nearby kills) and has already caused rage threads.

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take the game for what it is the best space ninja parkor symulaton around

The only space ninja parkour simulator. That's probably why so many people care about things such as grind and balance. There aren't any games that are similar to this and people don't want it to continue to slide until it becomes just plain unfun to play.

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I've been farming since the start  of U18 for:

-Kubrow eggs

-Bite mod

-Lethal momentum

-Cold element event mod (spy mission)

-Covert Letality (spy mission)

-Soma Prime

 

What I managed to get:

-Soma Prime (yesterday)

- 1 kubrow egg (after almost hundreds of kubrow dens)

- One part away from equinox (tyl regor drop lethal momentum)

- Quick Thinking (by some miracle, I had given up so long ago xD)

- Various ducats item

- 2 snapdragon stance

 

Yeah the grind is becoming insane. it might not seem much but I've been playing a minimum of 5 hours a day since U18 release day. I'm getting desesperate... I've been considering just farming prime stuff and trade for plat and just buy the stuff from other player... but I like to obtain thing on my own. Damn kubrow eggs, those thing are a damn myth.

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Sorties are not grinding, sorties are a three a day affair that on a good day take less than a single decent void defence. What people are excessively clemhurt about is that the sortie rewards are designed in such a way that they might not even see all the parts for their Grakata. It comes across as a rather sneaky way to put more platinum into circulation, because if you miss some of the parts then you've probably got to buy off others because very few would let them go for any other sortie item save maybe a legendary core.

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Still haven't answered my question. How that will help when hit by irradiating disarm and molecular prime? They are so smart now, it is just pity they have no weapons and can't move.

Better stealth detection was added (enemies alerted by nearby kills) and has already caused rage threads.

For the stealth...yes rightfully so as the parameters of the altered things are murky at best and without warning or planning. Us Tenno like to see numbers, so to speak.

 

Those are ultimate abilities - they are supposed to be pretty powerful but many abilities become near useless at much higher levels ruining the point of even being a Tenno.  I'd much rather need to use my ultimate out of utility rather than convenience to go quicker and have it be effective at all levels.

 

Balance and our POWER CREEP has been an issue in this game forever but since it is a PVE it doesn't matter as much.  My point is, is that cranking up the armor and level of units is a boring way of making the game harder.  I'd much rather see behavioral and technological improvements to the enemy so that their grunts will actually feel like veterans on higher levels.  No, surrounding everything in nullifier goo isn't an improvement.

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Grind? No.

RNG? Yes.

I think you're right. It's not so much the grind but the REAL problem is RNG. I wouldn't mind grinding if I knew what I was working towards. The uncertainty coupled with the let down that RNG so often dishes out is unbearable.

 

What if it was a token system instead? Void gives tokens to purchase the part you want?

 

Not that exactly, but that concept. That is an acceptable grind.

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I think you're right. It's not so much the grind but the REAL problem is RNG. I wouldn't mind grinding if I knew what I was working towards. The uncertainty coupled with the let down that RNG so often dishes out is unbearable.

 

What if it was a token system instead? Void gives tokens to purchase the part you want?

 

Not that exactly, but that concept. That is an acceptable grind.

Any form of token system for a grind will seem acceptable so long as the token amounts vary within certain boundary limits. I.E. give out ducats for running void mission which you in turn go to the void trader and get parts / rare mods you are going for.

 

A horrible version would be having multiple tiers of tokens with different tiers for each object, thus complicating the system even further.

 

The last time I played DC Universe Online, SOE started taking all tiered PVE gear and was removing the specialty tokens for each and just replacing them with the T1 tokens and varying prices for them. By removing the old token system and keeping it simple, more people farming their way up to higher level gear could actually see how many tokens they got per mission and run the ones that they were good at without worrying about the different tier tokens. Likewise a solo player wouldn't be forced to run group raids in order to gain enough tokens to buy the T3 level gear.

 

As for warframe, doing this would have the upside of removing the drop tables and just putting all items into categories that players can just pick from. DE wouldn't need to worry about diluted drop tables anymore and players would only be affected RNG wise for Assassins, certain mission starts, and maybe other minor things?

 

The downsides are that with newer gear and items players could just farm up enough tokens in storage and just buy the new stuff outright without waiting and trading for said parts would be meaningless because folks can just farm them instead. It could also cut into Prime access packs unless DE decides to hold those newer frames and items in said packs in the payment category for a month or more so the people who really want them can pay for them while others will just wait till they are released.

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i am ok with farming cz i am playing game wen i get stuff i get if i really wish somthing^right now^ i will buy it

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At first I was cool with the new Nitain thing, same with the Spy farm for Ivara, but when I saw that Nezha would have been avaible through sorties I was hugely disappointed.

 

Not reducing the grind is one thing, increasing it is the worst thing they could have possibly done and they did it.

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