xethier Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 -snip for brevity- Absolutely, they've cluster<redacted> the system to the point where I don't believe they can fix it without chucking the whole mess and starting over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argantes-svk Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) oh hi, Draco, long time no see.. why every attempt of nerfing a mechanic has one and only result - grinding Draco till our eyes/fingers bleed? thanks Obama.. I mean.. DE, you didn´t learn a thing from Viver Edited December 17, 2015 by Argantes-svk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoguro Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 the problem can be find in all this "automated" tools which dont need to know really about 3D-modelling and creating stuff as the sceneries and all companies sell the companies more and more "easier" tasks to handle production with less and lesser professionals because the tasks are done by scripts and the computers, means less mainpower and gain more out of the whole thing on the end this is not true as for example you look straight on the movement and behaving of nearly all warframes, they have a lot where there is no difference in moves as well as only difference in the grafic-design part like skins, exchange skins and you give the whole entire comunity a new frame shure, may function for the masses as well as MY MIND refuses very fast things which are simply the same, however somebody try to make them look like but thats me, shame on the great meditation schools on earth which give people tools to have a chance to keep a clear mind in those days of "lots of changes in the REAL realms of human development" on this planet ... now i only wish that many can understand what im aiming to the "friendly" way ^^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSMatticus Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Off-topic a bit - can you explain me how draco farming works? It's just an interception mission, why it's an ultimate farmfest? It's a very small map; you can make it from any point to any other point in 2-3 bullet jumps, tops. And since enemies spawn very close to the action. it means that they get to you immediately (or you get to them immediately, whichever), and that means they die faster, and that means replacement enemies spawn faster, and that means you get to kill more people in the same amount of time than on other maps. There's also a decent number of eximus units, which definitely helps (it's not unusual to get a full Oberon set off a single 4-round run), and it's also just a very high level mission. It's pretty much the fastest way to farm affinity in the game. But it's hit or miss for focus affinity farming, because focus affinity isn't shared. That means that if you go there to farm focus and there's an Ember or an Ash or an Equinox or something, you're going to be competing with them for kills. Every kill they get is less affinity for you and every kill you get is less affinity for them. There's no way for the two of you to not ruin eachother's farm and it's basically just a spammy pissing contest where the two of you are directly competing with one another. DE has already said that not sharing focus affinity was a terrible idea (for the same reason not sharing regular affinity was a terrible idea), and that they're going to change that. Until then, people have been running stealth missions, because you can do them solo (you don't screw up anyone else's affinity farming, and they don't screw up your's) and the 500% multiplier means you can get respectable amounts of affinity that way. DE saw that people were doing this and instead of asking "why?" immediately said "nerf." (Spoiler: the why is "DE goofed, and we want them to fix it.") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_T_Shoot Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Ha... which then begs the question...how can an explosion be silent? ;) We have silent but deadly explosions around my house all of the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rennagade Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 My solution: sleep arrows. Its annoying because even that fails every now and then, and someone who is asleep becomes alert when I kill the sleeping person next to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafturtoemc Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Nvm, time to store my tonkor and loki prime with 2 greater lens and let it dust. Ash here I come! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockscl Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) well time to stuff a lens on that old mag and destroy Shields like the other 50% of players were doing i have to admit that im a bit angry because this change wasnt aimed to improve the stealth play but to stop the focus farming, back then grineers being extremely stupids was enough explanation Edited December 17, 2015 by rockscl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xethier Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) well time to stuff a lens on that old mag and destroy Shields like the other 50% of players were doing i have to admit that im a bit angry because this change wasnt aimed to improve the stealth play but to stop the focus farming, back then grineers being extremely stupids was enough explanation this is the entire problem with DE's logic lately. DE: "We're going to limit farming" Community: "ROFLMAO" They're the ones that keep designing these systems and then playing whack-a-mole with the (very obvious) strategies that players will use to acquire what they want in a reasonable time-frame. We went through this with the reputation system, which resulted in a battery of nerfs and soforth, the final result:: Draco. When are we going to just realize that FARMING IS A FACT OF LIFE. Accept it, get over it, then design around it. Spy is still a respectable method of acquiring focus. (I, for one, am NOT going to deal with the stupidity of Draco) All this has done is slow me down by about 30%. (which, when you realize that i was capping in about 25 minutes on a single run, isn't the end of the world) -- This increases farm time from 25 minutes to about 80. Edited December 18, 2015 by xethier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flibbertigibbety Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Three grineer standing in a group. Two on each side facing away. one in middle just kinda facing me. I snipe one of the left, and he turns and freaks out a little. Starts aiming around, but sees nothing. I snipe the other one to his right, and he quickly turns around to look... other friend is on the floor. What's going on?!?! I leave him to wonder and go kill a few others. Same dude calms down and walks down stairs. Says hi to his buddy. Buddy gets sniped in the head and falls dead... Lifts his gun and looks around. no one else to be seen. What's wrong with all his friends?!? They just keep kneeling over! Must have been a bad batch of clones. Give him a few seconds to calm down... then sneak up behind and stab him in the back... Poor little grineer guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknow99 Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Waaaaw : if everything I've read in this thread so far is true, I will really get frustrated. I need to test that myself tomorrow. (as usual : spy/ exterminate/ rescue, silent weapons, no abilities,no sentinel/companion) Stealth has always been wonky, but if they succeeded at making it even more broken, that'll rustle my jimies. HARD! I'll post my "review" here aswell. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xethier Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) Consistency is what makes a game fair. Rules are irrelevant as long as they are consistent across the board. The current stealth system isn't consistent. Hence the frustration. Bows have travel time, so if you hit a line of 3-4 mobs, you loose your stealth bonus. Using a hit-scan weapon in the same instance... you retain it most of the time. It just took me 25 minutes to gain 15k focus on a spy mission. which is the amount of time it took me pre-"fix" to get all 75k. I actually had a mob SPAWN almost right on top of me after i killed one across the room. Fired off a shot into the back of his head and had the kill multiplier reset. Seriously? This is just BROKEN. DE, FFS, do something about this. Edited December 17, 2015 by xethier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockscl Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) im all in for improving the AI, it was too stupid to be mass murdering without them even wondering what was going on, but if you are going to go that way embrace it because of itself For exterminations you could tag the mobs that have been in our LOS and under 10 meters, those tagged mobs will not respawn in next tiles as we blatantly ignored them Focus farming could be adressed by diminishing incomings, if one can get 30k standing in 10 minutes just make it an exponential decrease towards the daily cap so getting those same 30k is easy but the other half gets hard Edited December 18, 2015 by rockscl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknow99 Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Still haven't tested U18.1 stealth,but a reddit cousin posted something : ...I don't like that. I really don't. Edited December 18, 2015 by unknow99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loswaith Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) The stealth farming isn't anything new, I have been doing it since spy 2.0 missions and stealth multipliers came out (spy 2.0 in U15) and the enemy AI really has always been much the same way since then, prior to that they had a similar behavior and stealth was seen as a novelty you tried that was never worth the effort even for loki. The factor I don't get is DE had time to 'fix' the AI (by adding something new, "did an ally die in the radius, if yes become aware") but didnt have time to fix the way the affinity sharing is in the game (affinity sharing has existed for a very long time and all it needed was "is this gear rank 30 AND does it have a lens, if yes, give focus" anytime it is given affinity). Uhhh just play the game normally instead of grinding for Focus points... The issue being that just playing missions normally you only gain up to about 1000 focus per item per mission (unboosted) if your not an AoE damage frame or using heavy damage AoE weapons. This means you will need to literally do 1000s of missions to get anywhere in the focus system. For comparison; As you are a founder, look at your in game stats to see how many missions you have actually done, and see how long that would really take to get anywhere with given what you have already played. Edited December 18, 2015 by Loswaith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky5hift Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Don't really see what is so bad about this, the AI is now one step closer to being less mentally disabled. Affinity multiplier and Focus gain was broken anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MostlyUseless Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 While I agree that the change to stealth makes sense thematically; I find that stealth gameplay is much less fun. Getting and sustaining a stealth combo multiplier during a mission is still possible, but the fact that most enemies travel in packs means that you can get one stealth kill in and then have to run away to another pack until the first one calms down. I guess I'll get used to it, but my initial reaction is that this isn't nearly as fun as wiping out a room in short order without anyone being the wiser. PS- Yeah, using stealth killing sprees to farm affinity/focus has become absurdly slow. Dislike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xethier Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Don't really see what is so bad about this, the AI is now one step closer to being less mentally disabled. Affinity multiplier and Focus gain was broken anyways. What's "so bad about this" is that the system has no consistency, no rhyme or reason as to why a mob suddenly goes Alerted. One in 12 or so is Alerted without any action taken by the player. In a dense pack of them, hitscan weapons will kill multiple without resetting the multiplier but non-hitscan will reset that sucker every time. The time it takes for a mob to "reset" from semi-alerted status is far longer than the buff timer. (30s) And it makes maintaining your 500% bonus absurdly frustrating. Which, in turn, slows down focus grinding. So your choices, these days, on focus acquisition are: 1) Draco -- fight with other people for affinity in an absurd power fest of "press 4 (or 5) to win". 2) Stealth missions that just got the XP system screwed up, hence this thread. (What took me 25 minutes, now takes me approximately 90 minutes) 3) Do dozens of missions per day and spend HOURS trying to make pittance of focus for the time invested by doing the missions "the way they were intended" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S7ORM Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 This is a stealth fix, not a stealth nerf. This was how things were a handful of updates ago. I had throught I recalled enemies being surprised when the guy in front of them went flying off with an arrow through his face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakeBOSHI Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Don't really see what is so bad about this, the AI is now one step closer to being less mentally disabled. Affinity multiplier and Focus gain was broken anyways. Seriously? It's inconsistent as hell which means you can do everything right and still get screwed, ontop of spawning just being buggy. You need to rely on Invis even more than before which excludes 3 frames. I just walked into a room with 3 lancers, a scorcher and a butcher all clipping inside of each other, spawned in the same spot. I moved onto another point in the map and found the same thing with a different mix. How hell am I supposed to stealth that? If there was a way to hide enemy bodies or a way to attract them towards u or away from u, then yes, you could spread out the mobs (that seem to just stop and stare at each other guaranteeing that if you kill any one of them, they will all be alerted), and it might be more fun. No such mechanic exists. Affinity multiplier was introduced as an incentive for ppl to play stealth, now that it no longer works we are back to 2013 where stealth is neither efficient nor fun. Edited December 18, 2015 by fakeBOSHI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixtime Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 BullS#&$ updates. DE really #*($%%@ up this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakeBOSHI Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 I really hope enemy awareness gets retweaked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klies Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Ceres Spy on Ivara: I do stay stealthed, but I don't go out of my way to farm kills I just kill as I go, I don't pay attention to the stealth multipliers, I have greater lenses in and I blow through the cap in 3 missions... maybe 6-8 if I didn't have an affinity booster from Prime Access... It got set back to being more realistic... Kweens forbid they make things logical in a magical universe of the future! If I was trying to make it more 'realistic' I'd get rid of the ability to silence some weapons, like the Ogris/Penta, because a silent explosion is not realistic - unless you're actually using the power of Banshee's Silence. - So to those who whine about this, be thankful that the silence mods are still there for you. Here's another novel idea though... This thing we're playing is called a "Game"... it's supposed to be "Fun"... not a farming Job... Try doing things because they're fun, or funny, or revisit a frame you haven't used in a while, go teleport around on Nezha, or play on the Moon puzzles, or just go kill Raptor with only a Ceramic Dagger and Saryn, because it's fun.. make your own challenges, even a Glaive Juggernaut kill is possible. Just have fun because nothing has to be a farm....except Kubrow Eggs.... those are always a farm... (dang monotremes)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimoireofalice Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Considering this seems to be a response to farming with invisability it doesn't actually affect Invisable frames all that much... On the other hand its killed stealth for frames without it. Loki approaches a tightly spawned cluster of enemies, he kills one and moves on. It doesn't affect Loki that that group is alerted as long as he doesn't kill them immediately. A frame without stealth approaches a tightly spawned cluster of enemies, they kill one and the entire group is alerted. Due to being in plain sight the group will almost definitely then see the frame If the groups placement is perticularly nasty... For example a corridor. Then you are seen instantly and your stealth run is pratically over. All this did realistically is kill stealth for anyone who wanted the challenge of going without invisability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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