Crit Damage Inconsistent ?

[Enno69]

Hello to all, apologize if I sound like a noob, I have a question concerning critical hits. I am currently using a Rakta Cernos with Ivara and I seem to have noticed my crit damage not only rarely dealt the values promised by the builder (which I thought could be trustable since it's simple, static calculations), but also had fluctuating values against specific targets. For instance in the mission I just finished, I have, several time, seen instances of damage slightly above 11k on Corpus crewmen and Moas alike (whereas it should be different), but occasionally the crewman would get approx 21k, something like that. Bodyshots always. Another time I hit an ancient for about 8,9k (so it was a crit) whereas the expected value should have been almost 22k.

 

Here is my build : http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Rakta_Cernos/t_30_22300034_131-7-5-132-1-5-133-6-5-137-0-8-140-4-5-141-2-5-153-3-3-159-5-5_137-6-132-8-141-6-153-9-140-9-159-9-133-6-131-6/en/2-0-85

I have noticed this fluctuation with other crit weaps such as the Tonkor.

Can someone please help me understand what is going on ? Does it have to do with the multishot ? Or is the crit damage a randomly determined number chosen between the minimum and maximum possible values ?

Thank you.

[xethier]

It's adjusted by the damage output type vs. enemy armor type.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0

[Enno69]

It's adjusted by the damage output type vs. enemy armor type.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0

Yes, but doesn't the builder take that into account when calculating total damage ? And also, in this case, how comes I obtain different results against opponents from the same type ?

Edited December 25, 2015 by Enno69

[Rydian]

the values promised by the builder (which I thought could be trustable since it's simple, static calculations)

They're averaged calculations.

You have an 87.5% chance to crit, when you don't it'll be low and when you do it'll be higher.

You also have 90% multishot, so there's a 10% chance of almost half the listed damage or so.

 

Uncheck the multishot and crit boxes to see your actual raw damage, then do estimates based on that.

 

(And yes, damage modifiers based on what you hit.)

[xethier]

Yes, but doesn't the builder take that into account when calculating total damage ? And also, in this case, how comes I obtain different results against the  opponents from the same type ?

 

The Builder will show you the table if you click on Details.

 

Corpus crewman are classified as "flesh" whereas Moa's are classified as "robotic"

If you click on details and switch to corpus you can see the breakdown vs. the various mobs.

[Rydian]

Yes, but doesn't the builder take that into account when calculating total damage ?

... no because you're not telling the builder what you're hitting.

 

Literally /what/ you hit in-game will help determine what damage you do.

 

If your weapon is doing slash damage, it will do less damage against Grineer armor (because the armor is strong against slash), and more damage against normal infested (because they're weak to slash).  With the same weapon.

 

Think of it like a water move used against a fire pokemon.

 

 

And also, in this case, how comes I obtain different results against the  opponents from the same type ?

What I listed above, the damage builder shows you is an average estimate across multiple shots.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Rydian

[Enno69]

They're averaged calculations.

You have an 87.5% chance to crit, when you don't it'll be low and when you do it'll be higher.

You also have 90% multishot, so there's a 10% chance of almost half the listed damage or so.

 

Uncheck the multishot and crit boxes to see your actual raw damage, then do estimates based on that.

 

(And yes, damage modifiers based on what you hit.)

I believed the builder gave you the exact values for non-crits and crits.

... no because you're not telling the builder what you're hitting.

 

 

I am doing that, when I click on details and see the listed values for grineer (= flesh, ferrite, alloy etc), Corpus and so on. Or not ?

[PhiZero]

I always thought the builder gave you the final damage values based off of 0 armor and no damage modifiers.

 

Though back to the point, your critical damage varies from target to target, as each unit has a specific set of weaknesses, and armor values vary between all enemy units; so, your Rakta Cernos that specializes in impact damage will deal more damage to Corpus unit shields, where it will suffer against a Grineer unit that has no shields and so forth.

 

As for armor, Grineer units have higher armor scaling allowing them to soak up more damage compared to Corpus units, so the higher level Grineer you face, the less overall damage you will do.

 

Edit: Sidenote, critical damage from firearms is affected by armor, so it will lose effectiveness depending on the armor value of its target; but, can be bypassed with finisher damage that ignores all elemental modifiers and armor.

Edited December 25, 2015 by PhiZero

[Rydian]

I believed the builder gave you the exact values for non-crits and crits.

You uncheck the boxes to see the raw values, then you check the boxes to see the averaged values over multiple shots when factoring in crits and multishot.

 

For example with your build, the raw per-shot damage before crits and multishot is 1086 damage.  If it crits, it does 5.6x damage.  So if it was showing the crit damage, it would show 1086x5.6= 6081 damage.  But instead it shows 5461 damage, which is the average combining both crit and non-crit hits.

[Enno69]

You uncheck the boxes to see the raw values, then you check the boxes to see the averaged values over multiple shots when factoring in crits and multishot.

 

For example with your build, the raw per-shot damage before crits and multishot is 1086 damage.  If it crits, it does 5.6x damage.  So if it was showing the crit damage, it would show 1086x5.6= 6081 damage.  But instead it shows 5461 damage, which is the average combining both crit and non-crit hits.

Aw right. This feels bizarre. Since the builder is listing numbers for "total damage", "burst" and "sustained", I thought "total" was a way to know the exact damage the weap would inflict on a crit hit on a given target.

So this means the values indicated are not accurate, which means I cannot know how hard exactly I will hit, say, a crewman (flesh) with a critical hit ? 

[xethier]

Aw right. This feels bizarre. Since the builder is listing numbers for "total damage", "burst" and "sustained", I thought "total" was a way to know the exact damage the weap would inflict on a crit hit on a given target.

So this means the values indicated are not accurate, which means I cannot know how hard exactly I will hit, say, a crewman (flesh) with a critical hit ? 

 

you can know, within a given range, what you'll hit for.

minimum to maximum. but as for every individual hit, no.

[Rydian]

Aw right. This feels bizarre. Since the builder is listing numbers for "total damage", "burst" and "sustained", I thought "total" was a way to know the exact damage the weap would inflict on a crit hit on a given target.

So this means the values indicated are not accurate, which means I cannot know how hard exactly I will hit, say, a crewman (flesh) with a critical hit ? 

The builder is geared for average DPS instead of the math for single hits, yes.

 

(This also means that some builds on builder aren't really feasible since people pay attention to trying to make the "damage" higher when some builds actually make the damage really inconsistent instead.)

[Enno69]

Okay, thank you all for your explanations about crits and the builder. Guess I only need to do the maths on my own lol.