Revamping Ammo And Its Related Mods

[TheLexiConArtist]

There are enough threads positing different "Ammo 2.0" solutions, we all know there's a problem.

 

A 20-ammo reserve weapon fills up in one or two pickups, where its 840-ammo brother takes tens of times the drops to replenish.

 

The old issue with 'ammo class' disagreements for Specials, or "how I learned to start worrying and had to make do with only 20 max arrows that one time".

 

 

Without further ado, the issue can be solved with relative simplicity without going to the extent of adding new, distinct ammo types and making things more awkward for everyone;

 

Weapons will have:

    1. "Ammo Reserve" statistic

    2. "Ammo Replenish" statistic

    3. "Load Capacity" stastic.

    4. "Ammo Source" property.

 

This comes mainly from what we already have:

- Ammo Reserve is what we currently mod for as "Ammo Maximum" (Ammo Drum, etc).

- Load Capacity is an agnostic term for "Magazine Capacity". (Magazine Warp etc).

- Ammo Source is what colour box you pick up to get more ammo (without Mutation). Colour coded term, for example a green 'Shotgun', in the loadout for clarity.

 

Our new property is "Ammo Replenish", or put in simple terms, how much ammo one pickup of the relevant source restores to the weapon in question.

 

What does this fix?

- Your Twin Vipers can now get much more ammo per pickup than your Lex.

- No more Castana+Bow shenanigans. For example, your Paris has a Reserve of 72, and a Replenish of 10. Your Castana has a Reserve of 20, and probably replenishes less now. They both have an Ammo Source of 'Special' (purple).

- More secondaries can be tied to other ammo types. Your Bronco is a tiny shotgun, and can now appropriately use Shotgun ammo - but because it's a smaller version, replenishes more from the same box-o'-tricks.

 

Further details (mods etc):

Now we have these fixes, some things are put into an awkward spot and need tweaking. Here are some things I thought of, with more to be edited in if we get some conversation going here and you bring up something I missed.

 

Ammo Mutation: Mutated ammo pickups restore a percentage of the weapon's 'replenish' statistic depending on rarity of the ammo type picked up and/or the comparitive grade of the mutated ammo picked up relative to the ammo type desired/mutated into. Ammo mutation mods are now one per Ammo Source (sorry, Arrow Mutation) and fit any weapon that has that Ammo Source property.

 

Same Ammo Source Primary/Secondaries: Ammo is restored only to the weapon currently equipped (unless full, in which case the ammo is picked up for the other weapon if required). Yes, this may result in some scarcity issues, but you wanted to bring two Shotguns, you should expect to have to ration your ammo properly. Mutation mods can help more now that they're percentage-based.

 

Modding our new Statistic: There are two options for this: Dual-purpose ammo capacity mod class, or New and specialised mods for the Replenish statistic alone. Of the two, I think that making ammo capacity mods dual-purpose (although possibly not linear) is by far the better option. Who would only mod 3000 more maximum ammo to carry when they still gain 50 per pickup, when they could mod to get 150 ammo per pickup instead? "Ammo Maximum" mods secondarily increase "Ammo Replenishment" as well, on a 1:1 percentage basis, or 1:<1. If you carry twice as much ammo do you need to get twice as much back, or is carrying twice as much but only adding 50% to your pickup rate good enough? Balance can decide.

 

Team Ammo Restores: Restore a percentage of Ammo Replenish per pulse depending on size of Ammo Restore drop, to be decided upon balancing.

 

 

TL;DR:

Weapons decide how much ammo they get themselves, instead of a universal and arbitrary flat number per pickup.

[xethier]

Why not just have each ammo pickup be equal to one "clip" or X, whichever is higher.

(in the case of bows, sniper rifles and other low clip sized weaponry)

[TheLexiConArtist]

Why not just have each ammo pickup be equal to one "clip" or X, whichever is higher.

(in the case of bows, sniper rifles and other low clip sized weaponry)

That's kind of exactly what having the weapon-specific replenishment value does, but I'd rather tie it to the total ammo capacity than magazine size, that way both are actually relevant for their separate functions.

 

Magazine size saves your reload time, increasing Ammo Cap (and replenishment, with the doubled-up concept I feel is better) helps you not run out of ammo in the long run.

 

Making it tied to the mag just means you mod anything that holds 10+ rounds with clip size and never run out of ammo or reload very often, so how much you can carry doesn't ever matter in the slightest. It solves all the problems and reduces variance, which isn't good.

Edited December 26, 2015 by EDYinnit

[ashrah]

that would be really nice cz i really dont like use ammo mutation on any wepon

[Naqel]

TL;DR:

Weapons decide how much ammo they get themselves, instead of a universal and arbitrary flat number per pickup.

 

The problem with your entire post, is that you wrote anything more than that.

 

Multiple box types only exist for the purpose of scarcity control, having multiple box types is entirely unnecessary once it becomes possible to adjust the scarcity of ammunition through the amount restored by pickups.

 

We're not playing an exploration based shooter with carefully hand-placed ammunition for specific weapons, we get out ammo by killing hordes of enemies, in quantities that in most cases are impossible to spend.

There exists no reason for multiple ammo box types even now, while they provide 20 ammo each, much less when the system is finally fixed to allow individual refill rates.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Naqel

[TheLexiConArtist]

The problem with your entire post, is that you wrote anything more than that.

 

Multiple box types only exist for the purpose of scarcity control, having multiple box types is entirely unnecessary once it becomes possible to adjust the scarcity of ammunition through the amount restored by pickups.

 

We're not playing an exploration based shooter with carefully hand-placed ammunition for specific weapons, we get out ammo by killing hordes of enemies, in quantities that in most cases are impossible to spend.

There exists no reason for multiple ammo box types even now, while they provide 20 ammo each, much less when the system is finally fixed to allow individual refill rates.

 

This is probably fair, but I try to fix core problems while keeping parts which are mostly harmless. I mean, we're not exactly reduced to ammo drops by the type of enemy killed as it is, our sniper/bow allies don't have to specifically track down Sniper Crewman and Ballistas just for their own ammo refills. If you think that would be an improvement, then I hope you like zero ammo refills when fighting Infested, because they sure aren't using any.

 

Having said that, if we had no ammo drop types, then we'd have to reduce the drop rate accordingly - and we'd never have a case for switching between primary and secondary to give ammo for the opposite a chance to drop when we've run out, which I think is a reasonable way to encourage actual use of weapon slots on a more than strictly situational basis.

Except, because of the flat values, some weapons don't really run out while some weapon combos will run out of both and leave you relying on powers and melee. Dual-pistols and an LMG primary could both easily run short at once, leaving you trying to refill your stocks of 1000 bullets 20/40 at a time. Not great.

 

Also, removing ammo types would obsolete mods. My complete solution removes none, and either adds a few new mods or simply adds an extra modifier to ones people don't use much anyway. When was the last time you legitimately considered slotting Ammo Drum?

Edited December 28, 2015 by EDYinnit

[Naqel]

then we'd have to reduce the drop rate accordingly - and we'd never have a case for switching between primary and secondary to give ammo for the opposite a chance to drop when we've run out

 

Also, removing ammo types would obsolete mods

 

First is false. And for a reason you wrote down that I have included in the quote: adjust the rate.

 

You operate under the assumption that you would always get topped up by the pickups, that should never be the case without mods.

Ammo you get from drops should be tuned so that you always get a modest drain on the the weapon actively used.

 

Eventually, no matter how much ammo you pick up, the active weapon should run out, forcing you to switch.

Alternatively, the problem never arises if the player balances the use(you effectively get double ammo if neither weapon is at it's maximum capacity).

 

 

Second, is that those mods should become obsolete/reworked, because the conversion mods are the single most  backwards solution to the problem of useless boxes cluttering the maps.

They were not meant to solve ammo problems, they were meant to allow you picking up of the otherwise useless boxes, once there is no useless boxes, they can be reworked to do anything else ammo related, for example allowing you to drain your secondary ammo pool with the primary weapon(retaining the conversion functionality), or vice-versa.

[TheLexiConArtist]

First is false. And for a reason you wrote down that I have included in the quote: adjust the rate.

 

You operate under the assumption that you would always get topped up by the pickups, that should never be the case without mods.

Ammo you get from drops should be tuned so that you always get a modest drain on the the weapon actively used.

 

Eventually, no matter how much ammo you pick up, the active weapon should run out, forcing you to switch.

Alternatively, the problem never arises if the player balances the use(you effectively get double ammo if neither weapon is at it's maximum capacity).

 

Don't quite get your logic here. If ammo has no type, then you have to top up one weapon fully before the ammo can go to the other. Drop rate can't be tuned to drain out and force a switch, because then the second weapon is taking up the ammo drops you're now picking up, leaving none to replenish the first, and then that second weapon drains out over time as well because that's how you're proposing to tune the drop/replenishment rate.

 

We have forced switching with ammo types. Drop rate is already tuned to force the switch in some cases / eventually; not enough rifle ammo drops to maintain a given automatic rifle because other ammo types drop sometimes instead. Pistol ammo drops, letting you use and maintain your typical secondary for a while, in which time more rifle ammo drops to top up the weapon you ran out of and are no longer using.

 

All that needs to happen is balancing that very process so that large firerate/ammo cap+consumption weapons drain out at a relatively equivalent rate to semi-auto of lower fire rate weaponry.

Edited December 30, 2015 by EDYinnit