Optimizing Frame Efficiency (Min/maxing)

[(PSN)iSh0tGuNzs]

I think it's important that people start to at least talk an not this because it does not seem to be a very common topic on the YouTubes. Please ask for and offer any advice on this topic.

Some quick notes:

Rank 3 fleeting expertise+ max streamline yields a 170% duration with only a 40% duration penalty.

Rank 4 fleeting expertise+ rank four streamline yields 175% efficiency with a 50% duration penalty.

Max fleeting + max streamline yields 175% efficiency with a 60% duration penalty and is a waste on most frames. Unless you are pulling duration down purposefully (EV Trinity) max streamline and fleeting should never be considered without using blind rage of at least rank 4 (anything lower and a max intensify would give you more power strength without an efficiency penalty.)

If you do care about having the best build possible you should acquire duplicates of most corrupted mods. The reason for this is that sometimes the huge bonuses in a single stat are eclipsed by the draw backs.

Another tip: flow is not necessary on most frames unless you have an ev trin on the team. With good build structure and energy management (something you will learn from playing limbo and banshee enough to not burn through 4 revives in an exterminate on Pluto) flow becomes a waste of capacity that could be given to a defensive mod to enhance survivability or even a natural talent.

Tip number 3: just because it's primed doesn't mean it's better.

My saryn uses a regular continuity because a primed continuity at r9 (the rank I'm stuck at indefinitely>.<) didn't get my duration above 133% to add another tick to miasma. Using the regular continuity gives me the space to add a vitality to compliment my rage mod.

Always pay attention to what you need and what you don't and remember to check the stat card to see your abilities' stats with you your mods accounted for. Play test and tweak as necessary. Look for the lowest amount of power strength you need to have your kill frame be viable through 20, 40, and even 60 waves of t4 defense.

Feel free to post questions, comments, concerns, and even blatantly rude comments saying I'm ignorant in the most flagrant English you can muster. I'm a big boy, I'll handle it.

Sincerely the frost main with 40% power strength.

Edited January 3, 2016 by (PS4)iSh0tGuNzs

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

Meh, I like to use QT+Flow on every frame.

 

That's just how I roll.

 

If you ask me, I think using either vitality or redirection is a waste of a mod slot.

[(PSN)iSh0tGuNzs]

I could see that being the case. I personally don't like to plan my builds around getting shot unless I'm fully in control of how much it happens and I'm using it to my advantage. I'd rather get sat down instead of using my energy pool for health because I came out of invis at the wrong time or left the rift next to a bunch of bombards.

[taiiat]

i was interested to have some discussion here, except this is all statement, no questions, no open ends for offering different points of view.

 

didn't get my duration above 133% to add another tick to miasma.

you can get partial Ticks.

[Robm]

Unless you are pulling duration down purposefully (EV Trinity) max streamline and fleeting should never be considered without using blind rage of at least rank 4 (anything lower and a max intensify would give you more power strength without an efficiency penalty.)

 

 

Good for frost 3 and 4 build like I have. Also, great for a Mag 2 build. 

 

Sincerely the frost main with 40% power strength.

 

I went with efficiency, power strength, and range, but forget about duration. best build ever.  

Edited January 3, 2016 by Robm

[CivilVanquisher]

Maxed FE and Streamline does help with toggle abilities. Check it out.

[(PSN)RedChili69]

Meh, I like to use QT+Flow on every frame.

 

That's just how I roll.

 

If you ask me, I think using either vitality or redirection is a waste of a mod slot.

 

 

QT really is only useful on Trinity, it's a waste n anyone else.

[Robm]

QT really is only useful on Trinity, it's a waste n anyone else.

 

it's a waste in general. 

[koopagon]

while the info you've posted is true for the most part, you're only scratching the surface of fleeting expertise. maxed fleeting isnt a total waste on most frames. in actuality, fleeting expertise is one of the most Tsundere mods in all of warframe.

on its own and maxed in a frame, it counteracts it's own bonuses but when paired with any duration mods or streamline, it compounds their effect.

for example, adding a rank 1 continuity on its own reduced ember's drain per sec from 3 down to 2.857.

but with a maxed fleeting and rank 1 continuity, you get different results: its now 2.66 per second.

now what if we throw in a maxed fleeting, rank 3 streamline and a rank 5 continuity? we get 70% duration and 175% effeciency. but this leads to you getting only 1.071 drain per second on ember...

now what if we did some heresy and maxed out that streamline on top of the rank 5 continuity and maxed fleeting..?

now in game it'll say we have 70 duration and 175% efficiency again, but this time when we look at ember's drain for world on fire... 0.75 drain per second!? this cant be right! oh but it is...

 

and even dropping continuity from the equation and just running maxed fleeting with a maxed streamline will also equate to 0.75 drain per second! meaning 190% efficiency trumps 40% duration!

 

see toggles are treated differently when it comes to the 75% max efficiency rule. instead of it only covering whats gained from efficiency, for toggles it also covers whats gained/lost from duration.

this means that instead of it being 70% duration and 175% efficiency, toggles read this as 70% duration and 190% effeciency. and in this case the 190 effectively nullifies the loss of up to 60% duration!


so TLDR- fleeting is the most tsundere mod cuz the more and stronger its competition, the more it works for you.

Edited January 3, 2016 by koopagon

[(PSN)Cwellann]

*snip*

^This.

Here's a nice color coded chart.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warframe/images/4/4d/BNos4zK.png/revision/latest?cb=20151022163549

 

Edit:  Duration on the side, Efficiency on the top, numbers in the chart are the channeled efficiency.  Anything in a green 25% means you're at the hard 1/4 cost cap.

Edited January 3, 2016 by (PS4)Cwellann

[-CdG-Zilchy]

I went with efficiency, power strength, and range, but forget about duration. best build ever.

Same here, Strong spammable globe and Max Armour stripping with Avalanche, good team build.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

QT really is only useful on Trinity, it's a waste n anyone else.

Loki and Nova disagree. Both have paper thin armour, low shields and HP that makes the other defense mods a negligible gain but with their huge energy pool, QT is a real life saver.

[(PSN)iSh0tGuNzs]

while the info you've posted is true for the most part, you're only scratching the surface of fleeting expertise. maxed fleeting isnt a total waste on most frames. in actuality, fleeting expertise is one of the most Tsundere mods in all of warframe.

on its own and maxed in a frame, it counteracts it's own bonuses but when paired with any duration mods or streamline, it compounds their effect.

for example, adding a rank 1 continuity on its own reduced ember's drain per sec from 3 down to 2.857.

but with a maxed fleeting and rank 1 continuity, you get different results: its now 2.66 per second.

now what if we throw in a maxed fleeting, rank 3 streamline and a rank 5 continuity? we get 70% duration and 175% effeciency. but this leads to you getting only 1.071 drain per second on ember...

now what if we did some heresy and maxed out that streamline on top of the rank 5 continuity and maxed fleeting..?

now in game it'll say we have 70 duration and 175% efficiency again, but this time when we look at ember's drain for world on fire... 0.75 drain per second!? this cant be right! oh but it is...

and even dropping continuity from the equation and just running maxed fleeting with a maxed streamline will also equate to 0.75 drain per second! meaning 190% efficiency trumps 40% duration!

see toggles are treated differently when it comes to the 75% max efficiency rule. instead of it only covering whats gained from efficiency, for toggles it also covers whats gained/lost from duration.

this means that instead of it being 70% duration and 175% efficiency, toggles read this as 70% duration and 190% effeciency. and in this case the 190 effectively nullifies the loss of up to 60% duration!

so TLDR- fleeting is the most tsundere mod cuz the more and stronger its competition, the more it works for you.

Thank you for that. I wasn't aware and I'll have to look into on a frame that isn't ember. ^.^ Edited January 3, 2016 by (PS4)iSh0tGuNzs

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

Maxed FE and Streamline does help with toggle abilities. Check it out.

True, though you have to compensate the duration loss somehow, especially since you probably run Transient Fortitude as well!

[(PSN)iSh0tGuNzs]

^This.

Here's a nice color coded chart.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warframe/images/4/4d/BNos4zK.png/revision/latest?cb=20151022163549

Could you better explain what I'm looking at on the chart? I gathered that efficiency is X and duration is Y but I'm not sure what the stuff in the middle means.

[IceColdHawk]

Could you better explain what I'm looking at on the chart? I gathered that efficiency is X and duration is Y but I'm not sure what the stuff in the middle means.

It shows you the efficiency of toggleable abilites. For example: Max duration (Narrow minded, primed continuity and constitution) combined with only streamline is sufficient to get maximum gain.

 

(Maximum gain = 25% of the cost)

(Least and worst gain = 175% of the cost)

Edited January 3, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

It shows you the efficiency of toggleable abilites. For example: Max duration (Narrow minded, primed continuity and constitution) combined with only streamline is sufficient to get maximum gain.

(Maximum gain = 25% of the cost)

(Least and worst gain = 175% of the cost)

I suppose everything changes if you have a maxed Blind Rage also equipped...

[IceColdHawk]

I suppose everything changes if you have a maxed Blind Rage also equipped...

Nothing changes. Or what do you mean?

 

There is the number 45% efficiency in the list and this is achieveable through blind rage.

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

Nothing changes. Or what do you mean?

There is the number 45% efficiency in the list and this is achieveable through blind rage.

I mean that togglable abilities will also usually benefit from Blind Rage and Transient Fortitude, which will mess up both duration and efficency..

[IceColdHawk]

I mean that togglable abilities will also usually benefit from Blind Rage and Transient Fortitude, which will mess up both duration and efficency..

Worst possible duration with 12,5% also on the list. Let's say you just got blind rage and TF inside the wf. You will have 72,5% Duration and 45% efficiency. That already gives you the worst benefit of 175%. Means your thing costs 75% more than usual. Let's add streamline to it. 45% + 30% = 75% (i know i'm good at maths). Now look at the list again where 72,5% duration and 75% efficiency cross, already 172,4% of the usual (costs 72,4% more than usual). Slap on fleeting expertise maxed and then you get 89,7% of the usual (10,3% less cost than usual).

 

Understand me?

[-KoreanPotato-]

I have a low end pc and thought this would increase my frame rate. #poorpeopleproblems

I do like this idea tho. Helped me a lot today on sorties

[Cat_Jam]

it's a waste in general. 

 

With Chroma/Atlas (with Vitality, Steel Fiber, Redirection, Armoured Agility, QT, Rage and Primed Flow) I can survive a T4 Death Orb's laser for a couple minutes standing still...

 

You've clearly never been to high end game play with any bullet sponges.

[Krymanol]

For me, min/maxing is merely a balancing act and all depends on how you play the game, solo, pugs, premade team etc. You really can't use a universal rule for every frame because every frame has different powers with different needs and different combinations of needs.

For example, I have builds where I need max fleeting expertise and streamline...builds that need only streamline...builds that only need fleeting expertise...build that can't use either one at all. So in the case of that last one, Flow mods are absolutely necessary or else I won't have enough power to use any powers at all once enemy level gets to 30+.

Rhino is a good example when it comes to energy pool. Without flow, he only has 150 energy. This means if you don't use flow mods, it's mandatory that you use max power efficiency or else all 4 of his powers become 100% useless as you may only get to cast them once. It really all depends on how you play the game though because solo runs, this is absolutely a problem. But in a team, you'd have enough outside support to keep a supply of energy and so 150 energy may be enough (depends on how often you have to use a power).

Also when it comes to balancing the 4 stats, Vauban is a good example of a frame who really can't afford to have any stat in the red since all of his powers use and benefit from at least 3 of the 4 stats to the point where if any of them are in the red, it can make the use of the power far less effective.

For example, Bastille is a power that kind of gets really weak if you go too far into the red on any of the 4 stats because duration can't be too short, range can't be too small and if strength is too low it won't hold enough enemies to make a difference in survival or protection. Then when it comes to efficiency, it's cost is high (75 base) which means either you put flow mod on or you max efficiency or both (depends on how often you have to put bastille up).

That's honestly one of the reasons I use bastille the least because it's too hard to mod it for maximum potential. If you don't specialize in one of it's areas of effectiveness then either it's not strong enough to hold enough enemies late game, it's not reaching out far enough to trap the most deadliest enemies (usually ranged who stand way in the back nuking), it cost too much to keep using or it's duration isn't lasting long enough to matter. In almost all cases, Both Vortex and Bastille are extremely costly to keep active and useful to their fullest degree. While I can go mod most other frames 3 and 4 power to their absolute most powerful point, I find Vauban powers are not able to do that. You either have to sacrifice something or go with a build that only boost stats, not lower them (so no corrupt mods). When you do that, you are just creating an average frame with average power, a jack of all trades and master of none.

There's a few other frames with similar issues. It's not that I want every stat to be maximum effect. It's that some frames have powers where lowering one stat too much counteracts the positive benefits of the stat that you do raise. Again, increasing the duration of bastille while having reduction to range or strength or increased cost to cast, actually makes the power less effective. Back when we has 10 mod slots instead of 8, this wasn't a problem. With less mod slots, we are limited to how well we can mod powers like Vauban's. Meanwhile we have other frames who can get one or two stats down to zero, completely max out the other two stats and they can run around any mission with unlimited power.

So due to design of powers and balance issues within them, it forces a different min/max philosophy for every frame and every combination of powers. There's not a universal right way to min/max for every frame. Maxing efficiency sounds good for every power and frame until you realize all the other issues when you make such a choice.

So because of that, you can never say Flow mod isn't needed on any frame or that every frame should get a specific amount of efficiency, range or power strength. You have to adjust the way you mod for your specific situation.

Now of course in your standard cookie cutter specialization builds, general modding rules apply...but if you want to do more than just be a one power wonder, there is no set rule for min/maxing then.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Krymanol

[(PSN)TEKKENGOD420]

Loki and Nova disagree. Both have paper thin armour, low shields and HP that makes the other defense mods a negligible gain but with their huge energy pool, QT is a real life saver.

Although qt is a life saver for you mobility is a life saver for me I have never used qt (other than on trin) and probably never will because the only time I go down is due to me not being mobile enough. You'd be amazed what a little side to side strafing and the occasional roll or bullet jump will do for survivability.

[(PSN)YankeeClippah]

With Chroma/Atlas (with Vitality, Steel Fiber, Redirection, Armoured Agility, QT, Rage and Primed Flow) I can survive a T4 Death Orb's laser for a couple minutes standing still...

You've clearly never been to high end game play with any bullet sponges.

I love this, i love tanks. Cant wait to play atlas

As far as min/maxing goes I tend to take it pretty far but always tweak it a bit since 90% of MY gameplay is not in endgame I prefer to have just fun frames to play and min maxing locks frames into one playstyle alot

Edited January 3, 2016 by (PS4)TriangleOffense

[Robm]

With Chroma/Atlas (with Vitality, Steel Fiber, Redirection, Armoured Agility, QT, Rage and Primed Flow) I can survive a T4 Death Orb's laser for a couple minutes standing still...

 

You've clearly never been to high end game play with any bullet sponges.

 

 I do sorties, T4, and raids. I have been to high level content. The mod is stupid and a general waste of mod space for something better. It hinders Trinity, I can care less about Chroma, and I don't have Atlas yet because I am too lazy to do bird lifter.