Buff Everything

[-InV-igo95862]

Here is some videos from a famous youtuber who just started conclave:

 

 

 

I don't see many complain about balance. More about rewards or servers.

[Lord_Noctus]

oh i didnt know i need to be famous to make my points viable. also quite isnt much into pvp and also it makes no sense at all posting these videos since they have nothing to do with what we talk here.

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TTK

 

read (last sentence and explanation) and now understand that actually the high skilled players in warframe are asking for lower ttk

Edited January 5, 2016 by Lord_Noctus

[Nighttide77]

I would assert that newbies rage quit for reasons outside of TTK. If a newbie can't move as effectively as a veteran, they simply can't compete. At the same time, I've seen more than my fair share of average players just walk into a floor of obvious mines...as if they could take the damage or something.

[-InV-igo95862]

oh i didnt know i need to be famous to make my points viable. also quite isnt much into pvp and also it makes no sense at all posting these videos since they have nothing to do with what we talk here.

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TTK

 

read (last sentence and explanation) and now understand that actually the high skilled players in warframe are asking for lower ttk

 

I was talking about new players in pvp. Quite Shy is clearly a new person in pvp and she is enjoying it so far.

[Nighttide77]

read (last sentence and explanation) and now understand that actually the high skilled players in warframe are asking for lower ttk

The Tigris duplex-frags anything in close range, the Daikyu pretty much 1-shots everything at 15m (which is nearly hitscan at that range). The list seems to kinda go on from there...

How much lower does the TTK need to go?

[Thelonious]

Here is some videos from a famous youtuber who just started conclave:

 

 

 

I don't see many complain about balance. More about rewards or servers.

 

Wait till he starts facing more and more experienced players that even his gorgon spray can't hit.

Conclave is fine and fun when no one is (ab)using mobility.

 

But vets insist on keeping the crazy mobility (and therefore skill gap) they have spent thousands of hours perfecting.

Which is understandable. 

But not necessarily a good thing for the game.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Thelonious

[Nighttide77]

But vets insist on keeping the crazy mobility (and therefore skill gap) they have spent thousands of hours perfecting.

Which is understandable.

But not necessarily a good thing for the game.

Back when Frost Prime was excessively tanky but moved like a sloth, both veterans and newbies asked for mobility buffs. Except for me. I felt the ability to double jump and aim-glide was more than enough dodge capability for something with incredible amounts of shield.

I think it's more about making PvP movement closer to PvE movement, though people in PvE don't often make as much use of their mobility as they possibly can. In PvP, people tend to eek out as much as they can from every mechanic they've got.

[Lord_Noctus]

I was talking about new players in pvp. Quite Shy is clearly a new person in pvp and she is enjoying it so far.

we had this youtuber RevxDev once fighting against a member of mine called Feyangol. in the end that youtuber called feyangol hacker and stuff becouse he couldnt kill him (to fast to tanky, no way to keep aim on target long enough). so what, youtuber or not i dont care and actually revxdev played conclave not just for the skins lol.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Lord_Noctus

[Lord_Noctus]

Back when Frost Prime was excessively tanky but moved like a sloth, both veterans and newbies asked for mobility buffs. Except for me. I felt the ability to double jump and aim-glide was more than enough dodge capability for something with incredible amounts of shield.

I think it's more about making PvP movement closer to PvE movement, though people in PvE don't often make as much use of their mobility as they possibly can. In PvP, people tend to eek out as much as they can from every mechanic they've got.

ok we got it people like to be fast but alongside with that u have to make the ttk fitting to the speed of the game. take for as example titanfall.

[-InV-igo95862]

we had this youtuber RevxDev once fighting against a member of mine called Feyangol. in the end that youtuber called feyangol hacker and stuff becouse he couldnt kill him (to fast to tanky, no way to keep aim on target long enough). so what, youtuber or not i dont care and actually revxdev played conclave not just for the skins lol.

 

So what? Your statement is that game is not enjoyable for new players which I don't see. Of cause if there is a large gap in skill level between players it can't be enjoyable between players. But its not a problem of game balance by it self, more of matchmaking. (of cause if it is not conclave 1.0 there was no new players)

 

 

 

ok we got it people like to be fast but alongside with that u have to make the ttk fitting to the speed of the game. take for as example titanfall.

 

Why do you bring dead game as example.

[-InV-igo95862]

Besides there had not been a match with 8 experienced players in a while. Usually its like 1 good player stomping other less experienced players, occasionally 2 but even when its better to focus on farming oro then trying to kill experienced player.

 

Do 8 player match with similar skill level and then talking about TTK being high or low.

[Lord_Noctus]

Besides there had not been a match with 8 experienced players in a while. Usually its like 1 good player stomping other less experienced players, occasionally 2 but even when its better to focus on farming oro then trying to kill experienced player.

 

Do 8 player match with similar skill level and then talking about TTK being high or low.

weve done that enough and the conclusion is that people who win that match barely reach 15 kills if they lucky and if people get sick of running away. it is depressing and it is fact that lower ttk also attracts alot casual (new) players. see cod series. u cant argue against it.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Lord_Noctus

[JonBenj]

As somebody who joined Conclave 1.0 in U12, there was no easing in at all, Just meet the Pro's in game and hit a vertical skill curve with zero understanding of what works Weapon and mod wise, and mobility wise, it was rewarding - but very frustrating at times.

 

I'm older aged player so to a certain extent could deal with being killed over and over and over. Everyday.

 

Eventually the matches lasted longer and the rush kept me coming back as well as the community and comradeship.

 

But i can completely understand why someone would try it, come across a ruthless highly evolved 1.0 player die each round in 10 seconds or less or never even see the opposing Warframe, and say never again.

 

I think we have this same problem with 2.0. It takes a positive attitude to survive. I'm still not convinced lower TTK is the way. I am in agreement with Phaseshifted that health orbs and positive health mods are a hindrance, the players who have these mods, are the very ones already with the skill advantage, Keep going this way and the node will Stagnate, we need to look after (encourage) the new players.

[Phasedragon]

weve done that enough and the conclusion is that people who win that match barely reach 15 kills if they lucky and if people get sick of running away. it is depressing and it is fact that lower ttk also attracts alot casual (new) players. see cod series. u cant argue against it.

I think you're misunderstanding here; Direct TTK when it comes to weapon damage vs frame health does not need to be lowered; that's already low enough, considering you can effectively kill within a second with most weapons. Making that any lower would result in difficulties with one shots and trying to justify what exactly deserves a one shot. However, due to mobility and the ever-availability of more health, a single conflict can be extended to a minute or more. This should be reduced by making it actually mean something when you get hit, not just shrug it off and regenerate in a few seconds. When you're having to kill someone by breaking their shields for the 3rd and 4th time and within that they've also picked up several health orbs, that's when it gets to be a problem.

Edited January 5, 2016 by PhaseShifted

[Lord_Noctus]

I think you're misunderstanding here; Direct TTK when it comes to weapon damage vs frame health does not need to be lowered; that's already low enough, considering you can effectively kill within a second with most weapons. Making that any lower would result in difficulties with one shots and trying to justify what exactly deserves a one shot. However, due to mobility and the ever-availability of more health, a single conflict can be extended to a minute or more. This should be reduced by making it actually mean something when you get hit, not just shrug it off and regenerate in a few seconds. When you're having to kill someone by breaking their shields for the 3rd and 4th time and within that they've also picked up several health orbs, that's when it gets to be a problem.

in matches when multiple skilled people run into each other it also happens that u dont find health orb yet engage in combat again and just leave the combat earlier ... surviving it just by ur shields. people with no god like aim must be depressed as F*** about this. but ur point is also right that health orbs and health regeneration mods are a problem.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Lord_Noctus

[BoyTitan]

About damn time some one else says it. Buff everything.

[-InV-igo95862]

You should also note that headshot multiplier for autos (karak, furis), burst weapons and semi secondaries got nerfed. Your Burston Prime deals 25% less damage if you aim in to head.

[Azarakidragon]

I agree with what seems to be the consensus here. TTK is fine, mechanics that reward escaping are not. Having 2-3 one-shot weapons in the game is already fine. If TTK was lowered, you'd run into many more problems. First off, getting one-shot isn't very fun, plain and simple. Right now, the weapons that do so without headshots, (Daikyu and Opticor) have lots of counterplay, which is totally cool. Lowering TTK introduces more one-shot scenarios, which is inherently less fun. With more oneshot weapons, two big questions come into play: Why use the Daikyu or Opticor anymore? And how do you give the new one-shot weapons counterplay?

[Nighttide77]

Not sure, but after 18.1 it seems like shield regen delay time got lowered.

If regaining health and shields was nerfed such that just retreating so much was punished more than rewarded, I'm sure a match amongst veterans would have more deaths than it usually does. I think grounds would be more evenly matched between veterans and newbies, too.

[Thelonious]

Not sure, but after 18.1 it seems like shield regen delay time got lowered.

If regaining health and shields was nerfed such that just retreating so much was punished more than rewarded, I'm sure a match amongst veterans would have more deaths than it usually does. I think grounds would be more evenly matched between veterans and newbies, too.

 

That's very optimistic.

The pessimistic point of view being that it would only slow down the pace of the game, forcing players to stay out of combat longer to regen shields and health. Basically, players would run more than they fight (even more than now).

As long as escaping is an easy option, players will do it, rewarding or not.

Heck, I was disengaging and resetting fights loooooong before I got the shield delay mod and knew health orbs spawn locations, and it was just as effective.

 

As for the more even match between vets and noobs, it's not optimistic, it's naive: a few mods and health orbs don't compensate for the abysmal difference in aiming and movement skill. 

[Nighttide77]

That's very optimistic.

The pessimistic point of view being that it would only slow down the pace of the game, forcing players to stay out of combat longer to regen shields and health. Basically, players would run more than they fight (even more than now).

As long as escaping is an easy option, players will do it, rewarding or not.

Heck, I was disengaging and resetting fights loooooong before I got the shield delay mod and knew health orbs spawn locations, and it was just as effective.

As for the more even match between vets and noobs, it's not optimistic, it's naive: a few mods and health orbs don't compensate for the abysmal difference in aiming and movement skill.

If players couldn't so easily regain health, it would make toxin weapons worth while for how little damage they deal. When the Acrid gets balanced, I'd expect it to deal maybe 5 damage at most.

The game would go faster because players whom run just prolong their defeat, whereas right now players can basically 'reset the fight' by running. Resetting the fight prolongs matches, potentially more so than players that use most of their time to run. Reducing recovery causes a player who runs too much to basically forfeit the match because recovery will take too long. At the same time, a variety of powers are able to finish off weakened players whom have all their shields but lost most of their health.

The only way to determine whether reducing recovery would actually help level the field between veterans and newbies is to experiment with it. A newbie may lose 3 oro to a veteran, but with reduced recovery, the newbie may eventually wittle down a veteran, as oppose to now where a newbie will pretty much constantly face a fully refreshed veteran each encounter. No veteran I have fought with or against always escapes every encounter unscathed.

I'm not going with optimism or pessimism. I'm going with theory that has some guesses based on experience. Theory requires testing, so I'm willing to accept my theories incorrect. If you believe my reasoning to be naive, please open my eyes to where there are holes in the reasoning.

---edit---

One might say that reduced recovery would increase the presence of frames like Trinity or Oberon, but if recovery is properly balanced, players would still see the benefit of using other frames over ones with recovery powers.

One may also say that reduced health recovery would cause more usage of secondaries and such due to Secondary Wind, but as shared in another thread, those recovery mods need a bit more expansion and reworking, especially if recovery is given a full review and rework.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Nighttide77

[Lordricker]

ok a person with a mk1 braton and a person with a daikyu standing still start fighting, who would win, see this is the problem, THEY WONT STAND STILL, the guy with a braton would loose regardless because iff that guy lands a shot while using the daikyu mod, the other guys is ded, unless it got up to the standards where the other guy fears the guy with the mk1 braton too

 

so lets say the do stand still, mk1 braton would kill daikyu in the time it took to draw, if they dont stand still and have equal aiming abilities then mk1 braton will win most of the time because it takes two shots to kill with the daikyu (at least 3 secs). Your sentence of the "the guy with a braton would loose regardless because iff that guy lands a shot while using the daikyu mod" how can he loose regardless when its only iff the other guy can land a shot at 15 m (not very common)

 

Lowering ttk would mean more weapons one shot, i thought people didnt like that or did we forget :/

[Sekcbaba]

I agree lowering ttk would not be good.  Ultimately, i think players just need a reliable way to continue shooting at each other while maintaining max travel speed.  I think games with relatively high ttk and regeneration mechanics should generally make sure escape speed is same as pursuit speed (pursuit being chasing while shooting, not just chasing, which is pointless) to help prevent the issues we are seeing (see games like unreal tournament / quake with power ups to collect dont have sprint, tribes allows pursuer of same build to maintain same speed while shooting at flag holder running).   Also some kind of movement speed penalty while holding cephelon would probably be good for that game mode specifically. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Sekcbaba

[Lord_Noctus]

 

 

let me put it like this.... 

ammount of people using a mk1-braton in our clan = 0

ammount of people with a daikyu = 30 %

and the rest have atleast a opticore in their loadout. the best players of our clan use those weapons and its not becouse they need so much skill to use its becouse they are straight up best becouse it supports the hit and run tactic.

which other weapon would be one shot when we get ttk decreased ? vectis we can have as 2 shot any frame instead of 3-5 shotting this ridiculous balance with the zoom they released just becouse of the high ttk. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Lord_Noctus

[Nighttide77]

which other weapon would be one shot ? vectis we can have as 2 shot any frame instead of 3-5 shotting this ridiculous balance with the zoom they released just becouse of the high ttk.

Not exactly, but Tigris-series pretty much 'one-shots' with duplex firing on close range.