De, Why Is This Going To Be A Launch Title For The Ps4?

[Bakim0n0]

Might be me, but I've never had an issue with falling through a map.   As for skills not working, what skills are you talking about?  Of the 5 WFs that I have and use, Ive used each and everyone of their abilities and they work.  The only one that is a bit bugged (but still works) is Rhino's Iron skin.    As for the inability to sprint up stairs, that too I don't seem to notice (maybe because when i see stairs, I slide + forward flip over them).   And as for the despair and kunai, well, those are two new weapons that were released, of course there is a chance for bugs, as with all things that a game release.   Those things can be fixed.  This game isn't complete of course, but it's not even close to what some people here refer to as alpha.  In alpha, you would be falling through maps fairly often, weapons would jam up and not fire, the aim of a weapon could be way off, bugs might cause doors to never open, or map objectives be wrong, etc.  but they don't, and thus this game is pretty much what Beta stands for.

Play kappa / kieste and void more and go through the doors frequently and you're bound to fall. It's happened to me at least 50% of the time I've gone to those maps lately.

As for skills not working, Decoy is majorly borked... stuff will just ignore the decoy (especially chargers) and Overheat is very broken (rank 4 focus + overheat = 100% damage reduction)

The targeting reticule is off, where you shoot is slightly above and to the left at an angle (the further the shot the further the deviation from the reticule)

And the worst part? They don't seem to be responding to tickets. I have a ticket that's been open 9 days now that I told them to just not even bother with and to close but it's still awaiting assignment.

There are big problems here and now but now I'm getting the impression we're already seeing a bit of "put it on the back burner" mentality and that's worrisome mixed with Sony's track record. It may just be perception, but it already is feeling like the PC version is getting less attention than it should and they are more worried about E3, PS4 and Lore than they are the stability of the game and quality of their customer service.

I love that DE is ambitious, but there comes a point where they are just over-extending and it ends up being the next Hellgate London.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[Vitriolic_Crux]

Ha, yeah I don't agree that this game is in an alpha state, but LAE: there's problems in the game with every example you mentioned. Yikes. Sure they're not always broken (except for the reticle, it almost always is), but there are enough complaints for each of those issues that I run into multiple instances of each every day I play the game.

[Law_Abiding_Engineer]

Play kappa / kieste and void more and go through the doors frequently and you're bound to fall. It's happened to me at least 50% of the time I've gone to those maps lately.

As for skills not working, Decoy is majorly borked... stuff will just ignore the decoy (especially chargers) and Overheat is very broken (rank 4 focus + overheat = 100% damage reduction)

The targeting reticule is off, where you shoot is slightly above and to the left at an angle (the further the shot the further the deviation from the reticule)

And the worst part? They don't seem to be responding to tickets. I have a ticket that's been open 9 days now that I told them to just not even bother with and to close but it's still awaiting assignment.

There are big problems here and now but now I'm getting the impression we're already seeing a bit of "put it on the back burner" mentality and that's worrisome mixed with Sony's track record. It may just be perception, but it already is feeling like the PC version is getting less attention than it should and they are more worried about E3, PS4 and Lore than they are the stability of the game and quality of their customer service.

I love that DE is ambitious, but there comes a point where they are just over-extending and it ends up being the next Hellgate London.

 

 

Understandable, but lets not forget that its still a long time til ps4 is even released, and even when it is, they might not even have the game ready for ps4 users.   As for the things you listed, I did not know about Loki's decoy being bugged.  Never played him so I never knew that.  As for Ember's EoF, yeah its broken as in OP, but in theory, it does work, just maybe a bit too well.   Also, Ill try those maps some more and see if I fall through them.  Like I said before, I've honestly never had an issue, but I know my friend told me that she fell through a grinneer map, once, and the void map once.   As for the targeting reticule being off, is there any weapons in particular, because I remember when Paris was really messed up whenever you would scope a target.  And about the tickets, yes I agree they are slow at responding, but maybe they need the money to hire more people who can address them.  Heck, maybe if its simple enough, they could have a friend of theirs do it while making sure they do things correctly.

 

 

 

And hellgate London?  Dear god, I hope not D:

 

EDIT:@V_Crux, well yeah of course there are bugs, period.  If you take away clans/dojos, then I would say that a third of the total problems/issues/bugs would be gone, period.   The only real issues that need addressing AND work on, is hosting servers (performance is a must-have for games), general balance of weapons and warframes, RNG look over, and map glitches.

 

 

Minor issues that aren't the worse of things but could be looked at later on, would be the UI design, visuals, sound-based things, platinum costs, and the market place.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Law_Abiding_Engineer

[Excitonex]

Ok, Digital Extremes, there's a lot I'm willing to deal with as growing pains for a in development game.

 

I'm willing to deal with the fact that your payment processor sucks. I mean, your payment processor has a tendency to reject cards that are valid. (My repeated attempts to get ultimate pay to accept my card frustrated me to the point I ended up spending more money than I wanted to spend on Warframe on a different game, War Thunder. This is kinda a bad thing from your POV, if I had to guess.)

 

I'm willing to deal with the fact that I have played far more polished open betas, and that in my experience, Warframe is more of an open alpha.

 

I'm willing to deal with the fact that since this is your F2P game, that your economy's going be much more out of whack than other games. (Though this is partly due to my belief that this game should really be considered an open alpha)

 

I'm willing to deal with the fact that your tutorial needs lots of work in order to explain more than just the basics. (Again, partly due to my belief that this game should really be considered an open alpha)

 

So, with all the above said: are you guys absolutely sure you want to go ahead and become a (pseudo since this is a online F2P game)finalized release?

 

Because unless I'm missing something here because of a lack of information given to us (and I really hope I do because the last thing I want is DE shooting itself in the foot here), I...honestly don't see Warframe doing well on consoles. At all.

I'm willing to deal with the fact that you're grasping at straws so you can take potshots at DE. How can more players be a bad thing in any fashion? I personally think DE should just produce Warframe for the gameboy color that way as few people as possible can get to experience this amazing game. Get off your pedestal and join the rest of us on Earth.

[Bakim0n0]

Understandable, but lets not forget that its still a long time til ps4 is even released, and even when it is, they might not even have the game ready for ps4 users.   As for the things you listed, I did not know about Loki's decoy being bugged.  Never played him so I never knew that.  As for Ember's EoF, yeah its broken as in OP, but in theory, it does work, just maybe a bit too well.   Also, Ill try those maps some more and see if I fall through them.  Like I said before, I've honestly never had an issue, but I know my friend told me that she fell through a grinneer map, once, and the void map once.   As for the targeting reticule being off, is there any weapons in particular, because I remember when Paris was really messed up whenever you would scope a target.  And about the tickets, yes I agree they are slow at responding, but maybe they need the money to hire more people who can address them.  Heck, maybe if its simple enough, they could have a friend of theirs do it while making sure they do things correctly.

 

 

 

And hellgate London?  Dear god, I hope not D:

I realize that the ps4 version is a long way off... but it feels like we're experiencing the problems already. The only hotfixes has been from major connectivity bugs and support staff seems all but non-existent; I'm one of several people I know that have had a ticket go unassigned for over a week (not even a "hey, we know you sent us a ticket, we're swamped but we haven't forgotten about you") and those big bugs we've already mentioned... IDK... it feels like how it was during the crunch time before U8... because I suspect they are crunching for E3 and such but...

It bothers me that they will be picking up more crew to handle the ps4 translation when they need more crew to work on the PC version period... Support to dev things are grinding down to a halt quickly for going on a month now. It further bothers me that if the console thing actually does work out they will be the shining exception on a long list of games that crashed and burned terribly trying to do so.

I really, really hope Warframe doesn't become the next Hellgate... but my confidence in DE was severely rocked by this decision.

[Bakim0n0]

I'm willing to deal with the fact that you're grasping at straws so you can take potshots at DE. How can more players be a bad thing in any fashion? I personally think DE should just produce Warframe for the gameboy color that way as few people as possible can get to experience this amazing game. Get off your pedestal and join the rest of us on Earth.

So he's grasping at straws and you're grasping at strawmen.

Another day on the forums.

[RealityMachina]

It bothers me that they will be picking up more crew to handle the ps4 translation when they need more crew to work on the PC version period...

Well, actual translation to the PS4 system should actually be painless AFAIK, on account of how the PS4 (and Xbox One, if that ever happens in Warframe's future) is using x86 architecture ala modern day PCs, compared to the PowerPC architecture the first two Xboxes used, or the Cell architecture that the PS3 used.

 

I'm more concerned about whether or not DE can actually polish Warframe to an competitive level with other planned PS4 F2P titles like War Thunder or Blacklight: Retribution, considering DE's track record for less-than-stellar polished games. (Then you got stuff like that whole problem with Update 8 where the fact that this is DE's first F2P game really became obvious when people started looking at the prices, then started datamining the weapons stats to find that they were extremely lackluster compared to the expense the game wants for it.)

Edited June 5, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Bakim0n0]

Well, actual translation to the PS4 system should actually be painless AFAIK, on account of how the PS4 (and Xbox One, if that ever happens in Warframe's future) is using x86 architecture ala modern day PCs, compared to the PowerPC architecture the first two Xboxes used, or the Cell architecture that the PS3 used.

 

I'm more concerned about whether or not DE can actually polish Warframe to an competitive level with other planned PS4 F2P titles like War Thunder or Blacklight: Retribution, considering DE's track record for less-than-stellar polished games. (Then you got stuff like that whole problem with Update 8 where the fact that this is DE's first F2P game really became obvious when people started looking at the prices, then started datamining the weapons stats to find that they were extremely lackluster compared to the expense the game wants for it.)

Linux uses x86 architecture as well, actually it was the FIRST OS to do so... that doesn't mean it's simple to port.

That second bit is a big part of my concern... frankly speaking for as much as I love warframe it's got a LOT of work to be done in terms of polish; there are actually a number of game breaking bugs and glaring balance issues that need attention NOW and they are expanding their reach.

The problem with the clan weapons right now is most of them are garbage (and expensive garbage) and a few of them are just unbelievably OP (Ogris, Supra and Acrid for example).

Really speaking... there are so many different aspects of the game that need tuning and it's worrisome to see DE getting bigger and bigger ideas in terms of ambition... It's not inherently bad but you've gotta remember that it's a risk thing... it can pay off big time or... absolutely blow up in their faces.

It's too early to really say what is going to happen one way or the other... but for those of us who have seen this kind of behavior it's worrying. Many a studio has crumbled because they tried to reach beyond their grasp.

[Excitonex]

Linux uses x86 architecture as well, actually it was the FIRST OS to do so... that doesn't mean it's simple to port.

That second bit is a big part of my concern... frankly speaking for as much as I love warframe it's got a LOT of work to be done in terms of polish; there are actually a number of game breaking bugs and glaring balance issues that need attention NOW and they are expanding their reach.

The problem with the clan weapons right now is most of them are garbage (and expensive garbage) and a few of them are just unbelievably OP (Ogris, Supra and Acrid for example).

Really speaking... there are so many different aspects of the game that need tuning and it's worrisome to see DE getting bigger and bigger ideas in terms of ambition... It's not inherently bad but you've gotta remember that it's a risk thing... it can pay off big time or... absolutely blow up in their faces.

It's too early to really say what is going to happen one way or the other... but for those of us who have seen this kind of behavior it's worrying. Many a studio has crumbled because they tried to reach beyond their grasp.

I notice you talk a lot in your post about things that are in the Update 8 Related Work thread. Perhaps it would be good to wait and see what their solution is instead of screaming about how they're failing to fix them?

[Bakim0n0]

I notice you talk a lot in your post about things that are in the Update 8 Related Work thread. Perhaps it would be good to wait and see what their solution is instead of screaming about how they're failing to fix them?

By a lot do you mean one thing, the clan weapons? That was actually a direct response to the comment I quoted btw.

And I am not screaming; again with the logical fallacies.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[Cinderain]

Those goddamn fallacies.

[squaresphere]

I'm more concerned about whether or not DE can actually polish Warframe to an competitive level with other planned PS4 F2P titles like War Thunder or Blacklight: Retribution, considering DE's track record for less-than-stellar polished games.

 

I've played Blacklight and it's fun, but on the polish area I would say Warframe holds up decently well.  They both have a grinding nature, though the nature is different on collection. BL is more streamlined in that you can buy anything with enough in game currency and is not dependant on farming "special resources". Store wise, BL is more "micro" purchase friendly with "daily pass" rentals .  

 

All that aside, I didn't spend a DIME on BL where as I purchased a founders on WF.

 

Does WF need some adjustments in the Marketplace? Well of course, the devs talk about it every live stream.

[Bakim0n0]

@Excitonex

Also, what makes you think I am not waiting? It will be real easy to tell when I have stopped waiting... you wont see me.

I have not, by any means, given up on warframe. I am simply discussing my concerns with the direction the game is heading and talking about the state the game is currently in.

[Excitonex]

By a lot do you mean one thing, the clan weapons? That was actually a direct response to the comment I quoted btw.

And I am not screaming; again with the logical fallacies.

I personally enjoy how you misused the term logical fallacies. What i used was not, in fact, a logical fallacy, but rather an exaggeration. Yes, I meant the clan weapons but I also mean earlier when you talk about their E3 crunch. Clearly if you have read Steve's post you would know that yes, things are being put off right now for E3. No, it's not the end of the world and they are not ignoring the bugs with U8.

[Bakim0n0]

I personally enjoy how you misused the term logical fallacies. What i used was not, in fact, a logical fallacy, but rather an exaggeration. Yes, I meant the clan weapons but I also mean earlier when you talk about their E3 crunch. Clearly if you have read Steve's post you would know that yes, things are being put off right now for E3. No, it's not the end of the world and they are not ignoring the bugs with U8.

 

Perhaps it would be good to wait and see what their solution is instead of screaming about how they're failing to fix them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You were saying?

Do tell how you're not misrepresenting my stance.

To be clear, I have been saying I have concerns about the PS4 port because of the current state of the game and you're saying I am screaming that the game needs fixes and I should just wait to see how they fix it.

You're taking one part of my dialogue out of context and making it the center of your argument against what I've said.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[Excitonex]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You were saying?

Do tell how you're not misrepresenting my stance.

Are you not complaining about them not fixing things that they are actually fixing? Because I'm pretty sure that's the heart of your previous posts. How is this a misrepresentation?

[Bakim0n0]

Are you not complaining about them not fixing things that they are actually fixing? Because I'm pretty sure that's the heart of your previous posts. How is this a misrepresentation?

Read my edit.

You're taking a small portion of my dialog out of context and using that as the center-point of your counter argument.

[Bakim0n0]

You've taken one post that was a direct response to a comment on polish and made it sound like that's my primary concern when it was, in fact, a direct response to the post I quoted.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

It's too early to really say what is going to happen one way or the other... but for those of us who have seen this kind of behavior it's worrying. Many a studio has crumbled because they tried to reach beyond their grasp.

Agreed Monster... I'm excited for DE, and I know their intentions are good. But I can totally see how this can go REALLY REALLY bad for us PC folks. The only glimmer of hope is that DE's business model of being Free to Play, is a rather progressive thing to embrace for a company like Sony.

The wildcard is the current state of Sony's SCEI, which is not in the best of shape, as is the future of Japanese electronics companies. Granted, Sony is in no danger of closing down tomorrow, far from it... However, you do see that competition from Korean companies like Samsung, LG, and companies like Microsoft and Apple have driven Sony into a strange niche, rather than being the all powerful electronics giant it used to be.

From my perspective, after being backed into a corner, by the likes of Microsoft's Xbox 360 and the Nintendo Wii, let's not kid ourselves here, the PS3 didn't win at all. Sony HAS to change and adapt away from the whole Gears of War, Call of Duty, etc. like titles that dominate the console market. Titles like that work really well with Xbox 360 and the Xbox 360 type of gamer. So if Microsoft has such dominance in that market, what's a smart Sony left to do? Venture in to territories/titles like Warframe. It's a win win, for them and because the distribution of the client, will be small, just like on PC, without requiring physical media, etc it's not a huge risk for them either.

(I don't want to start a console flame/fanboy war here, I own a PS3, Xbox 360, etc. please everyone refrain from that after reading my post.)

Now for DE... Why would they want to do this? Well, honestly I don't think they have any choice if they want any shot at all at being a major player. Take a look at Bungie Destiny... That title WILL BE Warframe's arch-nemesis and frankly, if Warframe DOESN'T get on consoles, it may simply fade into a forgotten PC only title that only those in the know would have played, being overshadowed by Destiny.

See? Thoughts?

Now to compensate for all the seriousness in this post, because if you know me, well...

Edited June 5, 2013 by sushidubya

[Bakim0n0]

Agreed Monster... I'm excited for DE, and I know their intentions are good. But I can totally see how this can go REALLY REALLY bad for us PC folks. The only glimmer of hope is that DE's business model of being Free to Play, is a rather progressive thing to embrace for a company like Sony.

The wildcard is the current state of Sony's SCEI, which is not in the best of shape, as is the future of Japanese electronics companies. Granted, Sony is in no danger of closing down tomorrow, far from it... However, you do see that competition from Korean companies like Samsung, LG, and companies like Microsoft and Apple have driven Sony into a strange niche, rather than being the all powerful electronics giant it used to be.

From my perspective, after being backed into a corner, by the likes of Microsoft's Xbox 360 and the Nintendo Wii, let's not kid ourselves here, the PS3 didn't win at all. Sony HAS to change and adapt away from the whole Gears of War, Call of Duty, etc. like titles that dominate the console market. Titles like that work really well with Xbox 360 and the Xbox 360 type of gamer. So if Microsoft has such dominance in that market, what's a smart Sony left to do? Venture in to territories/titles like Warframe. It's a win win, for them and because the distribution of the client, will be small, just like on PC, without requiring physical media, etc it's not a huge risk for them either.

(I don't want to start a console flame/fanboy war here, I own a PS3, Xbox 360, etc. please everyone refrain from that after reading my post.)

Now for DE... Why would they want to do this? Well, honestly I don't think they have any choice if they want any shot at all at being a major player. Take a look at Bungie Destiny... That title WILL BE Warframe's arch-nemesis and frankly, if Warframe DOESN'T get on consoles, it may simply fade into a forgotten PC only title that only those in the know would have played, being overshadowed by Destiny.

See? Thoughts?

Now to compensate for all the seriousness in this post, because if you know me, well...

I'm not really sure I would say WF was destined to be another forgotten PC game if they didn't jump onto the console game... but business wise it's a very very smart move for DE.

I never once was critical of DE pushing to get on the console market from a business perspective... it's a very smart move to expand their customer base and if it all works out it will be a stellar thing for the team.

My concerns have been, explicitly, based on my experiences seeing this sort of behavior in the past and let me tell you... it has yet to be pretty from my perspective.

In the past it's always resulted in a watering down of content and support and a mixed bag of horrible choices to business model. But, I have also repeatedly stated that my concerns are fully, 100% no holds barred opinion and I am absolutely subject to being completely wrong.

I only voice my concerns because I genuinely do love the game and I have loved how things have been going for the most part... It's just a bit troubling to see the game on shaky grounds trying to reach further; not because I don't think it's possible to be done correctly but because I have seen companies do this over and over and fall flat on their face.

Believe me when I say that I really honestly hope that my concerns are absolutely misplaced.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[RealityMachina]

I've played Blacklight and it's fun, but on the polish area I would say Warframe holds up decently well.  

I'll have to disagree here, Warframe is decent enough for the job (I wouldn't have spent 55 hours and counting on it otherwise), but the netcode/UI bugs that force me to restart the game entirely, the counter intutive pricing (I realize DE is working on the stuff like $7.99 hallways, but it's still a concern for future content they may introduce), the payment processor that I hope they're replacing/providing alternatives for in the future (the aforementioned incident where I wanted to spend $10 on Warframe, but ended up spending $14 on War Thunder after ending up wanting to hurt whoever came up with the current system Ultimate Pay uses), and the fact that the tutorial barely does its job.

 

To expand on that last point, I didn't even realize blocking was an actual feature until last week. I just learned how to use consumable gear yesterday. And then there's all the explaining I have to do for a new clan member because the actual tutorial just teaches the barebones of how to play the game and just stops there. It's like my #2 problem with Warframe, after Stunlock Man and before Economy Dog.

 

And I also wish Warframe had a bit better graphical optimization, but I can't fault for DE not having access to the Russian wizards Gajin Enterainment clearly has for War Thunder.

[Bakim0n0]

I'll have to disagree here, Warframe is decent enough for the job (I wouldn't have spent 55 hours and counting on it otherwise), but the netcode/UI bugs that force me to restart the game entirely, the counter intutive pricing (I realize DE is working on the stuff like $7.99 hallways, but it's still a concern for future content they may introduce), the payment processor that I hope they're replacing/providing alternatives for in the future (the aforementioned incident where I wanted to spend $10 on Warframe, but ended up spending $14 on War Thunder after ending up wanting to hurt whoever came up with the current system Ultimate Pay uses), and the fact that the tutorial barely does its job.

 

To expand on that last point, I didn't even realize blocking was an actual feature until last week. I just learned how to use consumable gear yesterday. And then there's all the explaining I have to do for a new clan member because the actual tutorial just teaches the barebones of how to play the game and just stops there. It's like my #2 problem with Warframe, after Stunlock Man and before Economy Dog.

 

And I also wish Warframe had a bit better graphical optimization, but I can't fault for DE not having access to the Russian wizards Gajin Enterainment clearly has for War Thunder.

FYI while blocking is a "feature" all it currently does is drain stamina.

*edit*

I forgot, it also has an animation... that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't actually do anything outside of maybe unbugging you if you get stuck not being able to use your melee (and that does not always work)

I do believe they mentioned they are working on making blocking more relevant... would be amazing if we could used timed blocks to deflect bullets.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

I don't think your concerns are misplaced Monster, and I don't think you're wrong to put it all here in General Discussion, because somebody's gotta say it. Your concerns are just that, and I have concerns as I'm sure allot of us who love and enjoy this game do. Yes. History is a great teacher and yes... Allot of similar situations/arrangements have resulted in the detriment/deterioration of the original game and/or studio.

There are a couple of interesting variables here that ARE different and I hope you see those too. The only thing we can be sure of is that we won't know until a year from now what's really going to happen, which is an eternity for us gamers lol.

The only thing I guess we can do is to "get while the gettin's good" and keep playing the game to death while it's still fun and hope for the best.

[Relkin]

ugh levels of ignorance...you realise that the console market has changed yes?  There will be a lot of F2P titles on consoles and early release games to boot.  Ever heard of Dust 514?  That's in ongoing development on the PS3 right now.  Blacklight Retribution? Another F2P launch title for the PS4.  Gaming is changing, suck it up and deal with it.  "Oh noz, they're actively soliciting the community for improvements in the game this is le terrible" srsly?  lol come on people, ongoing development of F2P titles is actually one their strong points, especially when the community is as involved in the process as DE had made us.

 

Oh yeah, and for everybody pissing and moaning about the patching process on consoles, you should probably educate yourself with regards to Sony's policies.  There is good reason Indie companies are flocking to their banner and they were the toast of the town at GDC this year.  Sony is going out of its way to make life better for indie devs PLUS DE already stated PC updates are priority one and will never be held back for the console version.  

 

Last statement, I'm a more recent fan of Sony as I feel they've been doing things 'correct' lately.  Don't mistake me for a blind fanboy, I'm very mercenary in my loyalty's.  I side with w/e I feel is currently the best in terms of tech, gaming, and software in general.  

[Bakim0n0]

The only thing I guess we can do is to "get while the gettin's good" and keep playing the game to death while it's still fun and hope for the best.

Pretty much where I'm at.

Don't confuse what I'm saying, I still play as much as my free time allows... sitting at work and only having access to the forums is a drag but it beats cleaning toilets and such like I had to in my younger days lol.

I've said it many times... if I was in the "GAME OVER MAN" mode you wouldn't even see me posting. I'm not trying to sell the idea that DE is ruining warframe nor am I saying the game is for sure headed to disaster. I am a bit troubled by the choice, but only because of my past experiences, and every incident has a chance of working out differently; because x number of companies failed to pull it off doesn't necessarily mean DE can't; Hell, you gotta risk it to get the biscuit right?

I haven't given up on warframe but I am holding back on spending more money on it... Frankly speaking, there is nothing I even want with plat outside of taters and formas but I was throwing extra cash in pocket DE's way... and it's not like I haven't already coughed up plenty (in fact had I not been buying plat packages I likely would have GM and then some.)