Sorties With Energy Reduaction Attribuite.

[FrostedMike]

I was playing as Trinity Prime, I did the sortie of today and the first mission was a mobile defense mission with an energy reduction.

 

I was expecting for about 50% energy reduction, but it was way more than 50%. Everyone in my squad had less than 100 max energy, I had 56 max energy (I have 225 max energy on my Trinity Prime, I don't use energy capacity mods on her), leaving me and the rest of the squad unable to use their untimate ability.

 

An energy reduaction attribiute for the sortie is nice, but when it's more than 50% reduction so please make it 100 max energy and no less. Having less than 100 max energy can make the mission too difficult, especially if it's an "endless mission" type like defense or survival. Luckly enough, it was a moble defense this time, but I don't want to wait and have a 75% energy reduction survival mission. In missions like this, using all 4 abilities is crusial for the team's survivability and functioning, having less than 100 energy can disable it.

 

Please take care of it as soon as possible.

 

With all the comments here I got the problem: I was thinking about how other people I met see the sorties and not how I see it:

The sortie is easy enough for me, but people I met said it's too hard for them, I'm talking about Mastery rank 8+ / 11+ people. If they say that it's hard, it meen something.

More ranting here:

I saw a comment here that talked about how people complain about the difficulty of the sorties, that it's too hard and when DE increase the difficulty they complain that now it's too hard. I must disagree with some of that: Sorties are end-game content and was made for experianced people, when I see people who fail it over and over again despite their high rank and skills (people I know how they play, not from those who farm thier xp by spamming 4) it meen something. What I'm trying to say is that it's true, there are haters and there are people who complain about everything, but there are millions of other people who think different from each other. These "haters" are minority, not everyone like that.

Why the sorties are hard for me? They're not, but it's hard when you got to carry the whole squad, what I'm usually doing.

The sorties are not hard and not easy, the sorties are hard enough. If it's easy for about 50% of the people and hard for the rest, than it's almost perfect, you can't please everyone.

 

Please note in the sorties how much the energy reduction is so people will know how to preper.

 

EDIT:

Changed the content, added explanation.

Edited January 14, 2016 by CommanderSpawn

[Dabus87]

It was stated that energy reduction will be 75% and reduced energy regeneration. For future go prepared - increase mana to pool to 400 to reach 100 max in sortie mission (yes it's that easy).

[Egg_Chen]

Was 50%, got changed to 25% recently.

Regen rate is also extremely slow now.

While I agree it is low now, 50% was trivial because I could still cast anything I wanted.

I stuck a Flow on to counteract it, all good.

Sorry, IMO this mission condition was largely irrelevant before, now it matters.

[-Zr-Scroll]

The energy reduction in Sorties as of now (-75%) is fine as is, no need to change it.

 

Sorties are supposed to be hard and you need to adjust to the 'mutators' in those missions just like you adjust into the effects of Dragon Keys while you go vault-hunting in the Derelict missions, which by the way also have 75% reductions on speed/damage/shields/health if I recall correct. And those effects have never been a problem - they are a feature, which works perfect, just like in Sorties.

 

Besides Survival missions in Sorties are probably one of the easier missions since you cannot fail due to a console/pod exploding up. You just need good parkour and damage.

Edited January 9, 2016 by -Zr-Scroll

[ograzzt]

It just force you to use flow, I have no idea why they did this change. It don't make mission harder, just annoy you.

[[DE]Momaw]

It just force you to use flow, I have no idea why they did this change. It don't make mission harder, just annoy you.

 

Actually it kind of does increase difficulty, because you had to give up some other mod to fit that Flow. (unless you were already using it)

[FrostedMike]

It just force you to use flow, I have no idea why they did this change. It don't make mission harder, just annoy you.

There is the catch, some frames don't have enough energy even with Flow. Forst for example have 150 energy at rank 30, with flow he have 30% more energy which makes it less than 200 energy. In this mission he will have only 50 energy. With a maxed Primed Flow he will have 55% more energy (about 225 energy), in this mission it's a little more than 50 energy, you're still not even close.

You just can't get this 100 energy with any frame, not even with a maxed Primed Flow. Not everyone have Primed flow or even maxed it.

 

It was stated that energy reduction will be 75% and reduced energy regeneration. For future go prepared - increase mana to pool to 400 to reach 100 max in sortie mission (yes it's that easy).

I will go properd next time, but I don't think everyone want to change their build for a single mission. Not everyone have Primed Flow or even a maxed one, you know.

 

Was 50%, got changed to 25% recently.

Regen rate is also extremely slow now.

While I agree it is low now, 50% was trivial because I could still cast anything I wanted.

I stuck a Flow on to counteract it, all good.

Sorry, IMO this mission condition was largely irrelevant before, now it matters.

50% was fine, I won't mind if it will be 100 max energy, but having 50 max energy is too low.

 

The energy reduction in Sorties as of now (-75%) is fine as is, no need to change it.

 

Sorties are supposed to be hard and you need to adjust to the 'mutators' in those missions just like you adjust into the effects of Dragon Keys while you go vault-hunting in the Derelict missions, which by the way also have 75% reductions on speed/damage/shields/health if I recall correct. And those effects have never been a problem - they are a feature, which works perfect, just like in Sorties.

 

Besides Survival missions in Sorties are probably one of the easier missions since you cannot fail due to a console/pod exploding up. You just need good parkour and damage.

There is a difference between an effect of a dragon key and this 75% energy reduction: a dragon key effects you health / shield / speed and I don't remember what the other one left does. I even go unpreperd with a dragon key and do fine.

 

Energy reduction is fine, as long as you can cast all of your abilities. I said it before, having a maximum of 100 energy for a mission like this is fine because I can use all of the abilities, but haveing only 50 energy is a problem.

Once again, not everyone have Primed Flow or even maxed it.

[Egg_Chen]

Actually it kind of does increase difficulty, because you had to give up some other mod to fit that Flow. (unless you were already using it)

Exactly this.

I had to drop Natural Talent, meaning I was more exposed when casting and had to be a bit more strategic in mission, on other frames it may be a Survival mod or Stretch, Power, etc.

At 50% it had no effect whatsoever on the missions for me, it needed a change.

[ograzzt]

Exactly this.

I had to drop Natural Talent, meaning I was more exposed when casting and had to be a bit more strategic in mission, on other frames it may be a Survival mod or Stretch, Power, etc.

At 50% it had no effect whatsoever on the missions for me, it needed a change.

So your answer on reducing our energy is adding more energy? Do you really think this is a good design? If enemies are resisted to phisical damage, you don't add more phisical damage, you choose weapon and frame with strong elemental damage.

When energy reduction was 50% you still could go to mission without flow, some frames had only 75 energy, it was not very pleasant, but doable. Now you are forced to use certain mod, otherwise some frames will only have 37 energy. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by ograzzt

[FrostedMike]

So your answer on reducing our energy is adding more energy? Do you really think this is a good design? If enemies are resisted to phisical damage, you don't add more phisical damage, you choose weapon and frame with strong elemental damage.

When energy reduction was 50% you still could go to mission without flow, some frames had only 75 energy, it was not very pleasant, but doable. Now you are forced to use certain mod, otherwise some frames will only have 37 energy. 

I conculated it, you can look up again. You can get to a point when you use all of your 4 abilities with any frame, but you must have Fleeting, as I already said many times, NOT EVERYONE HAVE.

[ograzzt]

I conculated it, you can look up again. You can get to a point when you use all of your 4 abilities with any frame, but you must have Fleeting, as I already said many times, NOT EVERYONE HAVE.

Hey, I'm on your side.

[FrostedMike]

Hey, I'm on your side.

I know, I might not explain myself right...

Sorry about that.

[Idiomic]

You can still work around not having Fleeting Expertise:

-Avoid Warframes that have a 100-energy Ultimate, or avoid Warframe builds that rely on or boost their Ultimates.

-Bring in Cephalon Suda weapons to gain a 25% base Energy max increase when they trigger. (I don't know if this bonus is affected by Sorties.)

-With a maxed Streamline, your max Energy need only be 280 to leave you with 70 energy (barely allowing you to cast Ultimates)

-The Endurance Drift mod from the Orokin Moon's tests might help enough, if a maxed Flow brings you just under 280 energy.

-Combine abilities with your teammates to get the next-best thing to your favorite Ultimates.

[FrostedMike]

You can still work around not having Fleeting Expertise:

-Avoid Warframes that have a 100-energy Ultimate, or avoid Warframe builds that rely on or boost their Ultimates.

-Bring in Cephalon Suda weapons to gain a 25% base Energy max increase when they trigger. (I don't know if this bonus is affected by Sorties.)

-With a maxed Streamline, your max Energy need only be 280 to leave you with 70 energy (barely allowing you to cast Ultimates)

-The Endurance Drift mod from the Orokin Moon's tests might help enough, if a maxed Flow brings you just under 280 energy.

-Combine abilities with your teammates to get the next-best thing to your favorite Ultimates.

You didn't get my point:

This type of mission force you to use spesific frames and mods if you want all of your 4 abilities. Most people don't have neither Fleeting Experties or Primed Flow or even maxed it, not to speak about frames with high energy pool. I have the tools to deal with it, but not everyone does.

[xiaodenden]

You didn't get my point:

This type of mission force you to use spesific frames and mods if you want all of your 4 abilities. Most people don't have neither Fleeting Experties or Primed Flow or even maxed it, not to speak about frames with high energy pool. I have the tools to deal with it, but not everyone does.

 

Other people should be considerate and prepare better then instead of relying on other random teammates.  It's not like a nightmare mission which they don't know what's the condition until they get into the game so they can better prepare themselves.  Even if they don't want to use flow or streamline (personally I do), at least bring some energy restoration pads or use their weapons more instead of simply press 4 to win.  I don't have maxed primed flow and I don't usually use fleeting expertise except for certain builds, but I get along fine with normal maxed flow and streamline with most frames and in most situations.  For that particular mission you've mentioned, I used Limbo.  I banished everyone in the rift at the start of the mission for them to get energy and then I use cataclysm to protect the objective. They could come in and out of the rift depending on what they wanted to do while they still can get enough energy to use their abilities.  It seemed to work out fine for us in that case.  If it was longer missions like defense, survival, or excavation or if it's sortie 3, I can see it could be a lot more pain in the butt for us to deal with low energy, but then it's even more important for everyone to come prepared or form a proper team.  

[FrostedMike]

Other people should be considerate and prepare better then instead of relying on other random teammates.  It's not like a nightmare mission which they don't know what's the condition until they get into the game so they can better prepare themselves.  Even if they don't want to use flow or streamline (personally I do), at least bring some energy restoration pads or use their weapons more instead of simply press 4 to win.  I don't have maxed primed flow and I don't usually use fleeting expertise except for certain builds, but I get along fine with normal maxed flow and streamline with most frames and in most situations.  For that particular mission you've mentioned, I used Limbo.  I banished everyone in the rift at the start of the mission for them to get energy and then I use cataclysm to protect the objective. They could come in and out of the rift depending on what they wanted to do while they still can get enough energy to use their abilities.  It seemed to work out fine for us in that case.  If it was longer missions like defense, survival, or excavation or if it's sortie 3, I can see it could be a lot more pain in the butt for us to deal with low energy, but then it's even more important for everyone to come prepared or form a proper team.  

You didn't get it as well:

The fact the me and you can preper better dosn't meen everyone can. You can eneter sorties at MR 4, those people barely have 4 frames, not to mention Fleeting. I'm thinking about them, not about us.

I said it, I will be ready next time.

[[DE]Momaw]

Is it wrong that there should be a real possibility of failing a mission, or at least making it much more difficult, due to insufficient gear or a less than ideal loadout?  I don't see how this is different compared to raids and things in other progression-drive games. While you can join the Dungeon Of The Baddest Boss Ever immediately after hitting level 20, you're going to be weak as a kitten until you have some of the rare items that drop there.  If there is no possibility of your equipment not being good enough, then there is no reason to ever upgrade, and the entire premise of "collect all the things" falls part.

 

Honestly I am not seeing the problem here.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Momaw

[UltimateGrr]

You didn't get it as well:

The fact the me and you can preper better dosn't meen everyone can. You can eneter sorties at MR 4, those people barely have 4 frames, not to mention Fleeting. I'm thinking about them, not about us.

I said it, I will be ready next time.

 

Sorties were DESIGNED to favor Tenno who have the gear needed to rise to the occasion, which is why we have low energy missions and missions that require certain weapon types like bows only.

[Radon086]

Energy reduction is more like a filter than a challenge. It auto banes some frames or builds that consume high energy per cast, but hardly threats any others.  

The thing is, energy pizza still solves everything. Once you pass the basic requirement of your energy consumption, you still chilling like you did before.  

[MosAnted]

 

There is the catch, some frames don't have enough energy even with Flow. Forst for example have 150 energy at rank 30, with flow he have 30% more energy which makes it less than 200 energy. In this mission he will have only 50 energy. With a maxed Primed Flow he will have 55% more energy (about 225 energy), in this mission it's a little more than 50 energy, you're still not even close.

You just can't get this 100 energy with any frame, not even with a maxed Primed Flow. Not everyone have Primed flow or even maxed it.

 

 

 

Umm, I can't believe no-one commented on this, but you're wrong. Maxed flow gives 150% more energy, not 30%. So a frame with a base 150 energy and maxed out Flow would have 375 energy. a Maxed Primed Flow Increases energy by 275%, so the same 150-base energy would be increased to 562.

 

Edit: My calculations were off, as it turns out Flow calculates the energy increase using the base (rank 0) energy. So a rank 30 frame with 150 has a base 100 energy, plus flow and level up boosts turning into 300. The wiki has a table with pre-calculated values: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Flow & http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Primed_Flow

Edited January 13, 2016 by MosAnted

[Gilmaesh]

still, with normal flow and streamline you can cast ultimate. It shouldn't be a problem to players to have those mods

 

Edited January 13, 2016 by Gilmaesh

[carnaga]

In my playthrough we got plenty energy orb drops from mobs. Specially on the energy reduction defense mission. There were plenty orbs on the ground to sustain your energy constantly. Spam a skill, loot orbs, spam again loot. The mission was not that hard to complete.

[FrostedMike]

 

still, with normal flow and streamline you can cast ultimate. It shouldn't be a problem to players to have those mods

 

 

I had it and I couldn't.

 

In my playthrough we got plenty energy orb drops from mobs. Specially on the energy reduction defense mission. There were plenty orbs on the ground to sustain your energy constantly. Spam a skill, loot orbs, spam again loot. The mission was not that hard to complete.

You're a bit off topic, we're talking about the energy pool, not how much energy you can get. I can get energy with no problem, but not cast the ultimate because your energy pool is so low.

[torint_man]

Players: We want actual legit endgame stuff.

DE: Here, have sorties.

Players: They're too easy.

DE: Okay, lets buff an existing debuff to insure players actually have to adapt to the mission, lest they have a harder time.

OP: That debuff is too much! (Proceeds to share an anecdote that was merely the symptom of ignorance and not equipping one single mod)

MFW:

 

Your math is completely wrong BTW, a maxed normal flow will give +150% energy, and that will give a frame with a base of 100 energy a capacity of 300 (150+(100*1.5)=300). 300*.25 = 75, enough to cast an ultimate with streamline. 

 

I played yesterday's sortie 3 of corpus defense with the energy reduction debuff, as a mag(with other people in a PUG). Since I have a R7 P flow, I had a capacity of 87.5. I could only cast SP twice with my efficiency. There was a nova who didn't have enough energy to cast MP. As a result, the mission was harder, but not uncompletable. I had to actually venture out of the frost bubble not just at the end of every wave, but in the middle as well, to collect energy orbs. Had it been the old 50%, there would be virtually no impact on anyone's playstyle. But, since it was 75%, energy was actually not an occasional problem, but a regular one. I had to actually ADAPT.

 

The debuff might force you to equip a mod or two, but that's not really a problem of the debuff, just the modding system as a whole.

[carnaga]

You're a bit off topic, we're talking about the energy pool, not how much energy you can get. I can get energy with no problem, but not cast the ultimate because your energy pool is so low.

 

I think I'm in the point of the topic. Because I had no problems casting the ulti. Maybe because I had these equipped:

 

 

When you think of it, it might be bit unfair if you have missed the primed flow from the Baro Ki'Teer. But maybe DE designed the challenge keeping the eye on these mods & builds. You fight against lvl 80-100 enemies and you'r weapons and gear has to be top notch for these extra challenges.

 

Anyways, you managed to complete the sortie even without the ulti :) I think it's one kind of an achievement itself =^.^=

Edited January 14, 2016 by carnaga