Cyandana Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 (edited) GOOD OPTIONS: Bullet Jump - Core of mobility and thus "getting gud" nuff said Double Jump - Important for switching directions and tempo Air Roll - Covers a stupid amount of horizontal distance due to momentum Wall Latch - See double jump Slide - Used to cancel / improve other parkour manuevers and cancel landing lag Hip Fire - I stopped using ADS and my KD doubled. There is no penalty for Hip Fire in this game. You are trading a ton (already awful) movement speed and lowering your FoV (and thus spatial awareness) for a scope essentially Air Melee (Orthos, Ankyu, Tipedo - no swordkanas or heavy melee) - Only Melee option used by good players (using Hairein, Pythadragon, and Vyrnazzus ( I think I saw him use it today? ) as a reference. BAD OPTIONS: Sprinting - Why sprint when we can just spam bullet jump Walking - ... ADS (right click) - Why would I limit my special awareness and leave myself totally vulnerable for a negligible scope effect? Every melee option that isn't air melee - Is unuseable vs "top" players unless they're messing around. SUGGESTIONS: Make sprinting mods that allow sprint to move faster than bullet jump on the ground. Something like +40% sprint speed -.x mobility would be good. Make the - movement speed while aiming mods 100% instead of 20%. The FoV limitation is PLENTY punishing. Make air melee stagger targets out of the air (seriously it's TOUGH to hit air melee reliably, should be rewarding as S#&$ if done in melee primary) . Make Sword Alone +.15 so that Melee Solo players consistently can catch gun players. Edited January 14, 2016 by Cyandana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyabi-sama Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Interesting proposition. I'd love to see what it'll bring to the conclave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Issun135 Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 I do like the sound of buffing ads mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pythadragon Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 (edited) I think your performance doubled for other reasons: 1. All the great advice and skilled play you've been seeking out. You improve rapidly by doing so. 2. By not using ADS, you learned movement more effectively ADS gives accuracy increases on all weapons*. This accuracy increase is extremely massive on some weapons (ex: furis series) *Ignore outliers with 100% accuracy such as latron/lex ADS has it's time and place. Just not 100% of the time like how many new players use it before (if) they figure out the importance of movement. Karak wraith ADS vs hipfire: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/585736-dera-vandal-is-the-strongest-gun-in-pvp-theres-no-if-and-or-buts-about-it/?p=6634829 Sprinting is an outdated mechanic (ever since coptering, air melee, now parkour2.0...) that needs to be removed in general, along with sprint speed (which has never been balanced with EHP/mobility). Within pvp, sprint speed has been superseded by the Mobility stat for good reason. To be honest I feel the same way about melee within a pvp context. It has been outdated ever since we went to the sky. It is no wonder why many skilled players make such great use of air melee. Not sure how I feel about air stagger. Melee is currently in a volatile state and is already going through rapid changes. I think we should talk new mechanics when things are a little more stable :) Edited January 14, 2016 by Pythadragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazrethim Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Not sure how I feel about air stagger. Melee is currently in a volatile state right now and is already going through rapid changes. Melee is worse now, pure E-spam again, broken weapons, No defense buff and Impenetrable Offense is still useless (it's mutually exculsive with the waaay more useful Martial Fury). The only upside I find in this update is that (finally) quickmelee doesn't have Knockdowns and staggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feyangol Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Naa, I'm against buffing melee as long as it stays the way it is... Melee and guns should never be on the same level as long as melee stays as simple as it is now. Melee is not viable against good players, because melee attacks have always the same animation, which will lock yourself into a certain movement pattern. There is simply no flexibility in it. A melee player needs a good situational awareness and good movement skills (and some knowledge about his combos, but this is nothing hard to master) and nothing more - these are also things that you need to have with a gun. But you also need to have good aim to use a gun succesfully. It is more hard to use a gun than a melee, so it also should be more rewarding. Now if Warframe were to add a mechanic, which were as hard to execute as "aiming", then I would be totally with you to make melee and guns equally strong, but as it is now ... Just don't do it :P . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazrethim Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Melee DOES need a buff, only to defense rather than offense, and some way to prevent targets from escaping easily. Of course damage values will have to be adjusted. For reference: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/594114-suggestion-melee-rebalance/ Balance doesn't mean "guns win all the time even in melee range". Balance means all playstyles, while having advantages and disadvantages , remain equal in general. Right now guns are too strong or the melee players too squishy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyandana Posted January 14, 2016 Author Share Posted January 14, 2016 I think your performance doubled for other reasons: 1. All the great advice and skilled play you've been seeking out. You improve rapidly by doing so. 2. By not using ADS, you learned movement more effectively ADS gives accuracy increases on all weapons*. This accuracy increase is extremely massive on some weapons (ex: furis series) *Ignore outliers with 100% accuracy such as latron/lex ADS has it's time and place. Just not 100% of the time like how many new players use it before (if) they figure out the importance of movement. Karak wraith ADS vs hipfire: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/585736-dera-vandal-is-the-strongest-gun-in-pvp-theres-no-if-and-or-buts-about-it/?p=6634829 Sprinting is an outdated mechanic (ever since coptering, air melee, now parkour2.0...) that needs to be removed in general, along with sprint speed (which has never been balanced with EHP/mobility). Within pvp, sprint speed has been superseded by the Mobility stat for good reason. To be honest I feel the same way about melee within a pvp context. It has been outdated ever since we went to the sky. It is no wonder why many skilled players make such great use of air melee. Not sure how I feel about air stagger. Melee is currently in a volatile state right now and is already going through rapid changes. I think we should talk new mechanics when things are a little more stable :) Well, shows how spoiled I've been by the Latron and Dera. lmao. I'm just up in arms about melee because it's become my new hobby in PvE (steam controller + brainless hack and slash with massive sprint speed = yus ) . Honestly though, until Melee 3.0 - something needs to be done about melee vs air mobility, and unless we're going to add a "throw" mechanic I feel like it'd have to be through air melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazrethim Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 A simple grounding effect on hit for 2-3s would perfectly balance the mobility disadvantage melee has without actually implementing new mechanics. Melee weapon damage and Melee combat defense will have to be rebalanced though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighttide77 Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 (edited) Melee is worse now, pure E-spam again, broken weapons, No defense buff and Impenetrable Offense is still useless (it's mutually exculsive with the waaay more useful Martial Fury). You don't think that having up to 100% block is useful (being that +50% on top of Sword and Board means more than 100%)? You're trading offense for defense...the ability to run at someone head-on over having to sneak up and attempt to defeat them with a slight DPS buff. Last I checked, Silva Aegis + Final Harbinger is still strong without extra attack speed. Oh, and not to mention full damage block without channeling. Edited January 14, 2016 by Nighttide77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairein Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 A simple grounding effect on hit for 2-3s would perfectly balance the mobility disadvantage melee has without actually implementing new mechanics. Melee weapon damage and Melee combat defense will have to be rebalanced though. A grounding debuff? Disabling all vertical movement via a debuff sounds very clunky. I can't see them ever implementing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighttide77 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 (edited) A grounding debuff? Disabling all vertical movement via a debuff sounds very clunky. I can't see them ever implementing this. I'd rather allow equipped melee to magnetize to aerial targets with aerial melee, personally. As well, with that, decrease aerial melee damage, but give knockdown/stagger so it's like you're batting them out of the air or smacking down to the ground. Edited January 15, 2016 by Nighttide77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyandana Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 I'd rather allow equipped melee to magnetize to aerial targets with aerial melee, personally. As well, with that, decrease aerial melee damage, but give knockdown/stagger so it's like you're batting them out of the air or smacking down to the ground. I like this solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighttide77 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Melee is worse now, pure E-spam again, broken weapons, No defense buff and Impenetrable Offense is still useless (it's mutually exculsive with the waaay more useful Martial Fury). The only upside I find in this update is that (finally) quickmelee doesn't have Knockdowns and staggers. Just making sure this information is proliferated: Impenetrable Offense seems to be working as intended. It's blocking 100% of damage with Tonbo, which is a polearm that supposedly gives 85% damage block at base. I was still able to take plenty of opponents down. It's a gap-closer assist mod, as oppose to a DPS assist, which means I can go directly at most targets, rather than having to bait and ambush with Martial Fury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FelisImpurrator Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 I'd rather allow equipped melee to magnetize to aerial targets with aerial melee, personally. As well, with that, decrease aerial melee damage, but give knockdown/stagger so it's like you're batting them out of the air or smacking down to the ground. Ah, hell, Night, that sounds fantastic. Would definitely line up well with my melee focus - my biggest issue with melee, even with a mobile non-locking class like Destreza or the 'chakus, is that I cannot do a bloody thing to high-fliers. Being able to say "Nope, you get down on my level" for even a moment would be great. Stagger on reg hit, knockdown on channel hit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighttide77 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Stagger on reg hit, knockdown on channel hit? Wouldn't matter to me if there's potential to follow the knockdown with a slam, heh. Slam to the ground and then curb stomp. I actually don't care as much about the CC, either, as long as my aerial magnetism consistently hits someone who takes to the air....so they have to at least change strategy a little and adapt. That would cause the melee user to also have to adapt, and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FelisImpurrator Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Wouldn't matter to me if there's potential to follow the knockdown with a slam, heh. Slam to the ground and then curb stomp. I actually don't care as much about the CC, either, as long as my aerial magnetism consistently hits someone who takes to the air....so they have to at least change strategy a little and adapt. That would cause the melee user to also have to adapt, and so on. Definitely. Give ground game in general some actual viability as an arena, so PVP is fought on two fronts for real - air and ground, with fluid transitions and both options being valid fields of play - that's the ideal, no? Would make things far more tactical, too, if in the long run they both had ways to bring opponents out of their comfort zone and into the other space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighttide77 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Yep yep. Air and ground, close/medium/long range. The more these different fields can be used to discern weaknesses and strengths of opponents, the more dimensions of strategy can be utilized. Greater depth creates more meaningful battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighttide77 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) Makes me think of how I've taken advantage the long range of enemy snipers and got in close so they had a hard time, and how dangerous it felt to get too close to a shotgunner. Edited January 19, 2016 by Nighttide77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now