Reload Speed Mods, And Why Primed Fast Hands Isn't Worth Maxing.

[DeMonkey]

Since this apparently needs prefacing, I do not think it's worth maxing it out when you take into consideration the resources required to do so and everything else you could use them on. Yes, it is worth it in a literal sense, you do get a benefit from it, but using the same amount of cores and credits to do that you could max out a rare mod of your choice instead,  that'll provide more of a benefit. That is why I don't think it is worth it. 

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

We all know that Reload Speed mods are clunky and unintuitive, like most I thought Fast Hands would reduce the reload time by 30% since that would seem reasonable.

 

How Fast Hands works:

 

For those who don't know, reload speed when using a mod is ''Base reload'' / (100+''value of Fast Hands'')%

 

For a Rubico with standard Fast Hands you have 3/130% which equals 2.3 seconds. That's a 23% faster reload time which is alright, but nothing to get excited about.

 

Primed Fast Hands specifically:

 

What I want to rant a little about is the difference between a rank 9 (50%) and a rank 10 (55%) Primed Fast Hands (henceforth PFH).

 

A rank 9 PFH will cause my Rubico to go from 3 seconds to 2 seconds. 3/150% = 2. That is a 33% faster reload time. A 10% faster reload time than you have with a rank 5 version.

 

A rank 10 PFH causes the Rubico to go from 3 seconds to 1.94 seconds. Merely a 35.5% faster reload time.

 

Only 2.5% faster than the rank 9 version.

 

Given that it costs several hundred cores and hundreds of thousands of credits just to get it that to the last rank... it's just not worth it to anyone.

 

Yes it is worth it in a literal sense, you are getting a benefit from it no matter how slight, but the resources required to get that bonus are ridiculous and as it is now I would never even consider it. It's not a case of laziness, it's a case of there are better things I can use these resources on.

 

Solution:

 

Make it work the way the majority of us expected it to, rather than having it increase the reload speed have it decrease the reload time. A maxed PFH is grueling to level, let it be worth it.

Edited January 28, 2016 by DeMonkey

[kennylagenz]

p. fast hands for bow is op

 

and your only talking about one weapon

Edited January 27, 2016 by kennylagenz

[DeMonkey]

p. fast hands for bow is op

 

and your only talking about one weapon

 

The math should be the same regardless of weapon, I merely used Rubico as an example.

I'll check though.

 

A weapon with a base reload of 2 seconds.

 

Rank 9 PFH = 33% faster reload speed.

 

Rank 10 PFH = 35.5% faster reload speed.

 

So yes, I only spoke about one weapon, the math doesn't care though.

Edited January 27, 2016 by DeMonkey

[ashrah]

all is worth it what make u stronger.....

[DeMonkey]

all is worth it what make u stronger.....

 

If you're happy spending 200+ R5's and 100,000's of credits for a 2.5% faster reload time then be my guest. You're probably one of the only people who think that's worth it.

Edited January 27, 2016 by DeMonkey

[Rydian]

I remember back when I tried to point this out.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/382265-psa-primed-fast-hands-actual-numbers/

I don't know why people are so mad about it, wish it'd be put in line with other mods.

[DeMonkey]

I remember back when I tried to point this out.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/382265-psa-primed-fast-hands-actual-numbers/

I don't know why people are so mad about it, wish it'd be put in line with other mods.

 

You used a graph? 

Damn. And I thought my thread was well presented...

 

Regardless, more threads on the subject = more awareness and a greater chance for a change.

[NezuHimeSama]

If you don't like maxing out mods, don't. Nobody is forcing you to bring your mods up to r10, and none of them are "worth it" compared to r9 counterparts, which aren't really worth it compared to r8, ect.

As for reload speed, it's calculated the same way as rate of fire.

[CY13ERPUNK]

it would be better if more mods were not just % changes from the baseline

 

ie fast hands could be like -.1 sec flat per rank and/or -.05 sec flat AND -10% base per rank

 

this way these mods could be useful for weapons with long or short reloads

 

by having everything be ONLY % changes from the baseline, many mods are just pointless on many different weapons

 

the mod system is flexible enough to accomodate both % from base mods as well as some flat change mods, we need a LOT more diversity ingame than we currently have atm

[Xiusa]

It's worth it. Why? Because I want faster reload speed. Discussion over everyone go home

[AM-Bunny]

I'd argue your point that it's 'not worth it to anyone'. 

 

No matter how you look at it, 2.5% faster than the Rank 9 version is still faster. Is it getting into diminishing returns? Sure, of course. But every additional rank of any mod is a case of compounding diminishing returns.

 

Just because you're too lazy to max it doesn't mean it's not an improvement. Math don't lie, and Rank 10 is better than Rank 9.

[Nezha_Rose]

Thanks for taking your time in showing us your opinion in a well manered matter. I will keep that in mind if I wanna sacrifice gold fusions for it.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Burning_Rose

[DeMonkey]

If you don't like maxing out mods, don't. Nobody is forcing you to bring your mods up to r10, and none of them are "worth it" compared to r9 counterparts, which aren't really worth it compared to r8, ect

 

Primed continuity adds 5% per rank. On an ability with a base 30 seconds that's 1.5 seconds per rank. That does not change, each rank increases in potency by the same amount. PFH doesn't, it has reverse exponential growth whilst the cost to upgrade it increases exponentially. 

 

Rank 10 PC is worth it compared to rank 9 since you're actually getting that 5% longer duration.

 

As for reload speed, it's calculated the same way as rate of fire.

 

Relevance?

 

It's worth it. Why? Because I want faster reload speed. Discussion over everyone go home

 

Guess that's my entire argument refuted. Not.

 

 

I'd argue your point that it's 'not worth it to anyone'. 

 

No matter how you look at it, 2.5% faster than the Rank 9 version is still faster. Is it getting into diminishing returns? Sure, of course. But every additional rank of any mod is a case of compounding diminishing returns.

 

Just because you're too lazy to max it doesn't mean it's not an improvement. Math don't lie, and Rank 10 is better than Rank 9.

 

Fair enough, it is worth it in a literal sense, but subjectively is it worth spending all of those resources on a 2.5% increase when you could save them for the next Primed Mod?

[Duohlon]

Isn't it the same for all primed mods ? (Not worth leveling to r10, just stick to r9)

[Raniu]

It's not about if it's worth maxing it or not. Or if it's worth using at all.

 

It's the matter of how it's described and what it does.

 

DE should make it so Fast Hands increases reload speed by 50% (so reduces reload time by ~33%) rather than increasing it by 30% so reducing reload time by 23%.

 

Then make PFH increase reload speed by 100% (so reduce reload time by 50%) rather than it increasing reload speed by 55% = reducing reload time by 35%.

 

Oh, and I don't think it'd be unbalanced this way.

[taiiat]

yes, it's well and long known that these Mods use Positive Modifiers.

which makes them poo and has always been poo.

 

Primed Fast Hands should be >100% Reload Speed increase.

 

 

as always, should be Negative Modifiers with adjusted Mod stats.

so that every Rank is consistent, making the more costly ones Fusion wise more effective than they are now, but still incredibly inefficient, just not as much.

but also to make the numbers in Warframe less anemic and convoluted for any newer Player as they will apply logic to Mods, and logic doesn't apply to most of them.

 

As for reload speed, it's calculated the same way as rate of fire.

you're literally wrong.

 

+60% RoF == base RoF * 1+ (RoF bonus)

+30% Reload == base Reload / 1+ (Reload Bonus)

[Xiusa]

Guess that's my entire argument refuted. Not.

Okay but it is

[IggySnow]

reload speed mods are really freaking stupid. not just because they aren't very effective but because the text on the cards is misleading.

 

50% faster reaload? awesome! not my 3 second reload will be 1.5! that seems worth it!

But nope. only 1 second, which is a big deal when you're talking about a freaking 3 second reload..

[DeMonkey]

Okay but it is

 

So my point that Fast Hands shouldn't rank up in a reverse exponential manner is refuted by someone on the forums saying that they like it that way and providing nothing constructive?

 

So if I went onto a Buff Rhino thread a couple of months ago and said no to the buff because I think he's worth using, would I have refuted their arguement?

 

No. I wouldn't have.

Edited January 27, 2016 by DeMonkey

[bubbabenali]

Breaking news: "Maxing a Primed Mod instead of sticking with R9 isn't worth it! - Primed Flow aside"

 

- everyone ever

[DeMonkey]

Some real world (in game) examples, you'll reload your 3 second gun 0.06 seconds faster if you go from rank 9 to 10, a 2 second gun will reload 0.04 seconds faster. And your bow kennylagenz will reload 0.013 to 0.015 seconds faster depending on the bow, not sure you'd even notice a difference.

 

Tell me, those of you who think it's worth it, do you think you'd actually notice the difference?

Edited January 28, 2016 by DeMonkey

[DeMonkey]

@OP: Thank you for doing the math on this. 

 

You're welcome, it's literally the only thing I'm good at in life

[NezuHimeSama]

Primed continuity adds 5% per rank. On an ability with a base 30 seconds that's 1.5 seconds per rank. That does not change, each rank increases in potency by the same amount. PFH doesn't, it has reverse exponential growth whilst the cost to upgrade it increases exponentially. 

 

Rank 10 PC is worth it compared to rank 9 since you're actually getting that 5% longer duration.

 

 

Relevance?

 

 

The relative difference lowers, though, which is all that actually matters. The last rank of Primed Continuity is only a 3.3% increase over r9. The number of reloads per second, for primed fast hands r9 vs r10, is the same +3.3%.

On the other hand, by your suggestion, the difference between r9 and r10 would actually be 10%.

 

The only actual problem with reload speed is that the difference isn't enough to justify a mod slot on 99% of weapons, which is more a problem with the multitude of vastly superior mods for every weapon type; not a problem specific to reload speed.

Edited January 28, 2016 by NezuHimeSama

[DeMonkey]

The relative difference lowers, though, which is all that actually matters. The last rank of Primed Continuity is only a 3.3% increase over r9. The number of reloads per second, for primed fast hands r9 vs r10, is the same +3.3%.

On the other hand, by your suggestion, the difference between r9 and r10 would actually be 10%.

 

And yet it's still the same amount of added duration per rank, that is actually what matters. I'll use the same example, an ability with a duration of 30 seconds will get 1.5 seconds per rank. That doesn't change regardless of what rank you're bumping it up to. 

 

A rank 9 PFH going to a rank 10 gives less of a bonus than going from unranked to rank 1, and yet costs so so so much more in the way of cores/credits. 

That is what I have a problem with, that is what I aimed to change by making this thread.

 

You didn't answer my question that I proposed earlier, given that everyone's favourite Boltor P has a reload speed of 2.4, using this mod at rank 9 will cause you to reload in 1.6 seconds. Bumping that PFH up to rank 10 will reduce your reload time by 0.05 seconds. 

 

Is that worth it to you? Is it worth the amount of time you'd spend farming cores? Are you even capable of telling you've saved 0.05 seconds?

 

I reckon you'd actually have to spend more time farming the cores than you'd save from that 0.05 seconds you've shaved off your reload.

 

 

Breaking news: "Maxing a Primed Mod instead of sticking with R9 isn't worth it! - Primed Flow aside"

 

- everyone ever

 

Except that other primed mods give the same bonus per rank. A 120% Primed Point Blank is twice as good as a 60% Primed Point Blank. A 50% PFH isn't twice as good as a a 25% PFH.

 

Edited January 28, 2016 by DeMonkey

[NezuHimeSama]

 

And yet it's still the same amount of added duration per rank, that is actually what matters. I'll use the same example, an ability with a duration of 30 seconds will get 1.5 seconds per rank. That doesn't change regardless of what rank you're bumping it up to. 

 

A rank 9 PFH going to a rank 10 gives less of a bonus than going from unranked to rank 1, and yet costs so so so much more in the way of cores/credits. 

That is what I have a problem with, that is what I aimed to change by making this thread.

 

You didn't answer my question that I proposed earlier, given that everyone's favourite Boltor P has a reload speed of 2.4, using this mod at rank 9 will cause you to reload in 1.6 seconds. Bumping that PFH up to rank 10 will reduce your reload time by 0.05 seconds. 

 

Is that worth it to you? Is it worth the amount of time you'd spend farming cores? Are you even capable of telling you've saved 0.05 seconds?

 

I reckon you'd actually have to spend more time farming the cores than you'd save from that 0.05 seconds you've shaved off your reload.

 

 

 

Except that other primed mods give the same bonus per rank. A 120% Primed Point Blank is twice as good as a 60% Primed Point Blank. A 50% PFH isn't twice as good as a a 25% PFH.

 

 

Except that it actually gives the same bonus. You're looking at time to reload, but that's not how the mod works. It's reloads per second. At a base of 1 reloads per second, each rank ads 0.05 more reloads per second. Absolutely no different at all from primed continuity, or like I said before, since it should be easier for you to understand, fire rate mods.

Do you look at +55% fire rate as though it should be -55% of time between bullets? F*** no.

 

As for boltor, which you never mentioned to me at all so idfk where that came from, I don't use primed fast hands on boltor because you can cancel about 25% of the reload animation anyway. Same case with Soma Prime, but at ~33%. I did, however, use it on Vectis, and it was effectively 55% additional fire rate. 55% more reloads per second.

Edited January 28, 2016 by NezuHimeSama